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#112974 - 12/30/01 07:34 PM a Nudder Gudder  
Admin  Offline

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[Linked Image]
Quote
I know I've complained about violations of gutter fill rules before. The Code's been shuffled around a bit for 2002 (now 366.6(A) ), but the story's almost still the same.

Here's one with >250 current carrying conductors in a cross section, not derated.

- Electure (Scott)


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#112975 - 12/30/01 09:59 PM Re: a Nudder Gudder  
sparky  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
Scott,
I'd like to play 'devils advocate'here and ask about hazards...


#112976 - 12/31/01 02:04 PM Re: a Nudder Gudder  
electure  Offline


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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 4,259
Fullerton, CA USA
Steve,
As the "Devil's Advocate", you sure know about the effects of heat! Really, other than that, I don't see any issue.

There are some really sensible arguments as to the reasoning involved,(Like Tom's "Box vs. Gutter") on all 3 of these pics I asked Bill to post.


#112977 - 12/31/01 05:52 PM Re: a Nudder Gudder  
sparky  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
Scott,
yes , well go there if you'd like to expand on this.


#112978 - 04/04/02 11:21 AM Re: a Nudder Gudder  
Anonymous
Unregistered

As an electrician that works only in bigger industry I see this all the time and there is no problem with this. That is what wire way is used for.


#112979 - 04/05/02 06:26 AM Re: a Nudder Gudder  
sparky  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
Let's examine this a tad.....

366.6 Number of Conductors.
(A) Sheet Metal Auxiliary Gutters. The sum of the cross-sectional areas of all contained conductors at any cross section of a sheet metal auxiliary gutter shall not exceed 20 percent of the interior cross-sectional area of the sheet metal auxiliary gutter. The derating factors in 310.15(B)(2)(a) shall be applied only where the number of current-carrying conductors, including neutral conductors classified as current-carrying under the provisions of 310.15(B)(4), exceeds 30. Conductors for signaling circuits or controller conductors between a motor and its starter and used only for starting duty shall not be considered as current-carrying conductors.
(B) Nonmetallic Auxiliary Gutters. The sum of cross-sectional areas of all contained conductors at any cross section of the nonmetallic auxiliary gutter shall not exceed 20 percent of the interior cross-sectional area of the nonmetallic auxiliary gutter.

1st
--note the 30 conductor rule, at 29 conductors there would be no derating, on the introduction ot the 30th, the whole shebang is only good for 45% .
the 20% ( or as in this pix -366.9(A)'s 75%) max fill
However, this dooes NOT apply to non-mettalic gutters. The same language can be found in wireways ( 376, 378)
2nd
--the 20%-75% fill max. Where 250 or whatever amount of conductors were to occupy a 5% fill, or be ventilated,would not the condition of captive heat change? There are plenty of power vented motor control cabinets out there, stuffed to the gills, and an 8x8 could easily be speced as a 12x12 or larger gutter.
3rd
---these conductors typically come from a panel which is not held to any form of derating ( at least for # of conductors) , then through nipples also exempt-less than 24". If 310.15(b)(2)(a) were to be enforced and say #8 conductors run from breaker to gutter/wireway, the existing circuits would also need this applied, all pipework, rx, etc etc would need be changed.

......all in all, the derating factors seem fixed and unalteralble , there is no format to quantify as to adjustment. Maybe this is why some use old panels as JB's?


#112980 - 04/05/02 10:30 PM Re: a Nudder Gudder  
circuit man  Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 273
saluda,s.c.
i belive you could get 20 more wires in there! [Linked Image]


#112981 - 04/08/02 12:17 PM Re: a Nudder Gudder  
fireftr  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15
Bucyrus Ohio Usa
I also work in a large manufacturing plant and see this kind of problem every day. Machines that were built 20 years ago and have had many modifications added to them force us to overfill duct and wireway. Most of our equipment would require major work and expense to add bigger or new wireway.
Keith


#112982 - 04/08/02 06:06 PM Re: a Nudder Gudder  
sparky  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,303
Yes fireftr,
daily for me also, so a shred of rationale is in order. Were it a JB , Panelboard, Switchboard or Old Panel the same doctrine of captive heat seems
unapplicable.....



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