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#104777 - 11/02/03 05:24 AM No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA


Notice the green and black wires at the wall connected to the fixture wires, and the supply that was ready to be run into a nearby box above the ceiling in this Holiday Inn Hotel in Newark, NJ!!
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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#104778 - 11/02/03 06:24 AM Re: No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Joe we do a lot of Hotels and I can tell you that the in house "maintenance guys" tare up our work as soon as we are out the door.

Worst case was a hotel (wood frame, NM job) the wall mounted sign needed more circuits than the plan called for, (6 instead of 3) they did not like our price, said they would take care of it.

Went there for the sign not working found the contactor we installed for the original 3 circuits melted.

Someone had moved our three 12 awgs onto a spare 60 amp breaker and had tied the three circuits run to the sign onto the 6 whips from the sign.

Good the contactor gave out before the NM and or the wood trusses that the NM was run through burst into flames.

This was a major chain Hotel.
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#104779 - 11/05/03 08:33 PM Re: No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
SvenNYC Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 1685
Loc: New York City
Is that fixture designed to be mounted without a box? I hate that....

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#104780 - 11/06/03 02:58 AM Re: No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
sparky Offline
Member

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 5545
well isn't that special

(URL removed)

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 11-06-2003).]

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#104781 - 11/06/03 06:27 AM Re: No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
300.15 calls for a box so that a fixture can be attached, and in this installation there was no box installed!
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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#104782 - 11/06/03 07:18 AM Re: No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
SvenNYC Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 1685
Loc: New York City
Joe, that's what I thought.

I've read that there are some fixtures, however, that don't need a device box. They bolt right on the wall and the splices are made inside the fixture.

I think that's mostly those long fluorecent ones though not the standard ones like the one shown.

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#104783 - 11/06/03 07:31 AM Re: No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
Sven:

Yes, See 300.15(J) Luminaires (Fixtures).

A box or conduit body shall not be required where a luminaire (fixture) is used as a raceway as permitted in 410.31 and 410.32.
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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#104784 - 11/06/03 07:41 AM Re: No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
Joe Tedesco Offline
Member

Registered: 10/07/00
Posts: 3325
Loc: Boston, Massachusetts USA
iwire:

I agree, here is another installation at a hotel where the hotel staff put these lights in a tree. Although allowed by 225.26 this stuff is not OK as the wiring method!!

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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

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#104785 - 11/07/03 03:00 AM Re: No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
iwire Offline
Moderator

Registered: 01/05/03
Posts: 4343
Loc: North Attleboro, MA USA
Joe the light on the tree looks typical of what I see the in house maintenance guys do.

I wish there was a good answer to stop this.

These guys in my area are expected by misinformed management to do any and all repairs and additions.

The managements attitude is "That is what your job is" Now go add an electric heater in the vestibule.

In that case 208 20 amp heater was added with NM (MC building) no conectors, no supports and incorect OCP

Many of these guys consider themselves to be masters of all trades.

The fixture with no ground, no box, green supply wire is a perfect example of a guy that knows enough to make it work but has absolutely no clue as to safety.

I know you spend a lot of time in these hotels and you must see the wiring done at Christmas time.

Bob
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Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts

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#104786 - 11/07/03 07:17 AM Re: No Box, No Neutral, No Connector! It Still Works!
SvenNYC Offline
Member

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 1685
Loc: New York City
I've also seen the light-on-the-tree-trunk. In the town of Cherry Grove on Fire Island (a barrier island off the southern coast of Long Island in New York state) this past summer, I was sitting on the porch of a pizzeria enjoying a (way overpriced) slice.

I look up towards the corner where there was a small fountain and a tree. Going up the trunk was romex that then entered a couple of the water-resistant type round boxes that were also screwed or nailed onto the tree. A couple of flood light bulbs were screwed into the lampholders.

An orange heavy duty extension cord snaked up into the tree pit, dissapeared behind some rocks and dirt and I assume led to the fountain's pump motor.

P.S.: Keep in mind that Fire Island is an area right in the middle of salt-water -- a sand bar, essentially. The salt and humidity in the air is not kind to steel or iron. You should have seen the condition of an armored male plug that was being used on a portable storage-battery recharger unit - it was RED with rust!!.

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 11-12-2003).]

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