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#100512 - 11/28/06 06:47 PM Has the NEC lost focus?  
renosteinke  Offline
Cat Servant
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,316
Blue Collar Country
Another discussion - about AFCI's - raised the assertion that the NEC will lose respect as it becomes just another marketing tool for manufacturers.

Other comments suggested that the code writing proces has become corrupt, with manufacturers twisting the code for their own ends.

We've certainly seen the NEC drift into design areas of late.

Is the day near when the NEC is considered but another worthless 'infomercial?' Does it try to be too many things to too many folks? Do we really need to update it every three years?

Have we reached the point where we can hear mary Jane Amp cry out "let them run romex!" ? [Linked Image]


2017 / 2014 NEC & Related Books and Study Guides

#100513 - 11/28/06 06:58 PM Re: Has the NEC lost focus?  
HotLine1  Offline


Member
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,803
Brick, NJ USA
Reno:
I heard a few comments from area EC's and some AHJ's at meetings related to the "Bubble Cover" mfg's possibly influencing that requirement.

As to the AFCI's, New Jersey did not adopt the AFCI requirements up to and including 2005 NEC, which was effective as of 11/01/06.

The only place I have seen AFCI CB's is in the big box store, and installed by one homeowner on his whirlpool tub.

I keep telling the homeowners that apply for permits to DIY, that the NEC is NOT a design tool, but that may change.

Good thread!

John


John

#100514 - 11/28/06 09:45 PM Re: Has the NEC lost focus?  
ITO  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 348
Texas
The book reads like it was written by lawyers.

[This message has been edited by ITO (edited 11-30-2006).]


101° Rx = + /_\

#100515 - 11/28/06 10:21 PM Re: Has the NEC lost focus?  
mister h  Offline
Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 20
erie, pa. usa
Good comment,


Ken


ken

#100516 - 11/29/06 01:49 AM Re: Has the NEC lost focus?  
mxslick  Offline
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 803
Atomic City, ID USA
Reno, thank you for bringing this to life here. [Linked Image]

In the arc fault thread It was asked what could be done about this kind of issue.

I feel that to totally exclude manufacturers from the Code Making Panels (CMP)'s, would be a mistake. They can provide valuable input as to what is available or possible in terms of equipment, materials and upcoming technology.

However, the conditions of thier participation MUST be changed so that they can only act in an advisory capacity, with absolutely NO VOTING POWER AT ALL!!!

This should be the first major change.

Secondly, it seems that, by following the threads on proposed rules and submissions by EC's and others in the commentary stages, that the CMPs, like most government-type bodies, tend to ignore the input of the folks in the real world who have to install/repair/design and inspect electrical systems. thus making such installs, etc. far more expensive with no tangible increase in safety.

Like I said in the arc fault thread, the current trend will cause more people to ignore the draconian Code and attempt thier own fixes, with predictable results.

And I agree with reno that the drift to areas clearly regarded as design issues, in direct violation of art. 90.1c which specifically points out that "This Code is not intended as a design specification nor an instruction manual for untrained persons."
(Bold emphasis mine.)

Quote
Does it try to be too many things to too many folks? Do we really need to update it every three years?


Yes and absolutely not.


Stupid should be painful.

#100517 - 11/29/06 08:07 AM Re: Has the NEC lost focus?  
SteveFehr  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,198
Chesapeake, VA
Quote
And I agree with reno that the drift to areas clearly regarded as design issues, in direct violation of art. 90.1c which specifically points out that "This Code is not intended as a design specification nor an instruction manual for untrained persons."
(Bold emphasis mine.)
It may not be intended as such, but this is exactly what it is. Many installations require no design at all outside of compliance with NEC- if that doesn't should "design guide!" I don't know what does. If you look at any document that does purport to being design specs (MIL-HDBKs and the like), you'll find they're remarkably similar.


#100518 - 11/29/06 08:16 AM Re: Has the NEC lost focus?  
resqcapt19  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
IL
The issue of getting people on the code panels that do not represent big organizations is the cost. All of the expenses and lost work time has to be covered by the panel member. If you are representing a big organization or company, those parties cover the costs. In many cases the organization that covers the costs gives you "directed votes" on some issues.
Don


Don(resqcapt19)

#100519 - 11/29/06 09:11 AM Re: Has the NEC lost focus?  
George Little  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I agree with Don on financial backing for code panel members. I do think that the makeup of the code panels seems fair and not loaded with manufacturers reps. Steve is correct in that the code book is not a design manual for "untrained persons" but I do believe it is a book of rules for design professionals (excluding interior decorators)and for the most part their projects use the code book as their guide. As for updating every 3 years - I support that 100%. We have to remember that the code book is a reactive document and when the insurance companies and manufacturers see a problem they address it with new products and rules. GFCI's, thermo protection in recessed lights, bubble covers (yes bubble covers) GFPE, PPE and AFCI's are examples of this type of reaction. Technology moves so fast we do need to review the code every 3 years for sure. So this is the other side of the issue for this thread. Go ahead hollar at me in uppercase.

Edit for typos

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 11-29-2006).]


George Little

#100520 - 11/29/06 11:49 PM Re: Has the NEC lost focus?  
NORCAL  Offline
Member
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 866
Were the AFCIs and bubble covers added to requirements just to drum up more biz to their respective manufacturers?


#100521 - 11/30/06 12:09 AM Re: Has the NEC lost focus?  
George Little  Offline
Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,489
Michigan USA
I hope the statistics will show that AFCI's reduce losses due to fires. I'm not sold on the bubble cover unless it prevents nuisance tripping. Only time will tell I guess.


George Little

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