ECN Forum
Posted By: gfretwell New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/11/15 11:01 AM
I assume it is because they drive on the left but it seems when you come up to a double door (exiting the room) the operating door is on the left.
Switches are "off" in the up position.
Energy conservation seems to trump safety. This stairway on our room is right next to the bathroom.
The only switches are a 3 way pair, one at the bottom of the steps, the other behind the bed and they turn on all of the overhead lights.

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]

One wrong turn going to the bathroom and you go down the steps.

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]

The room might not be "afraid of the dark" but I am.

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/11/15 07:03 PM
Greg:
Might you be staying there after a long plane ride???
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/12/15 12:36 AM
It was 12 hours from LA. We were on a bus almost that long yesterday to go for a boat ride in the rain (not my favorite thing so far)
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/12/15 01:30 PM
Greg:
IF you happen upon Mike (Trumpy) while you are on the other side of the world, give him my regards please.

Enjoy yourself!!!
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/12/15 09:47 PM
I will be in Christchurch in a few days. I think that is where he is.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/13/15 01:45 AM
What I saw of Nz on the net and Google earth, it sure looks like an interesting place to visit.

It may be on my 'list' someday, but there are a lot of places a lot closer already on the list.

Stay safe, and enjoy.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/14/15 07:01 AM
There was a discussion about conductor colors in Europe a few days ago but the ones here look pretty familiar to me ... looks like 240v and a ground.

The Romex seems to be the same wet or dry tho. I saw the same cable coming out of an underground raceway out in the parking lot.



[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]


I am starting to see the attraction of the 2kw tea pot. You can boil a liter of water in a flash. I just don't drink that much tea. Not that much coffee here but they like expresso. I have a hard time explaining if they put that shot glass of concentrate in a big mug of hot water, they have something. Fortunately I have a bunch of those hotel sized coffee drip packs and I can pour some of that boiling water through one to make real coffee.
Posted By: electure Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/14/15 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
I will be in Christchurch in a few days. I think that is where he is.


Trumpy's in Ashburton, about 80km West of Christchurch.
Posted By: geoff in UK Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/14/15 02:30 PM
My hotel travel kit always includes a small LED torch and a night-light. Otherwise it's often a choice between full lights and feeling your way to the bathroom.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/15/15 03:04 AM
We usually leave the bathroom light on with the door closed. It leaks enough light to find it in the dark. At the place with the unlighted stairway next to the bath, I put a chair there so you couldn't make a wrong turn in the dark.
I have several "torches" we travel with. I keep a small 3 LED light in my pocket all the time and I have an assortment of bigger ones in various places, up to a "Streamlight" that you could land a plane with. That is great if you are broken down on the side of the road. They gave us some pretty cool 3 LED lights (solar charged) at the star gazing near Mt Cook but they are red LED. I am thinking about swapping them for white ones. Off to the north island today.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/16/15 07:15 AM
I like the NZ plug caps. You are not as likely to be pulling on the wire to get them out

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]

This is the panelboard in our room (inspectors "inspect" wink
Note the RCD that controls the whole panel (30MA GFCI)

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]
[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/16/15 11:24 PM
Greg:
Nice cord cap!
The rocker switch controls the receptacle??

That is a 'clean' panel. Is it all plastic??

Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/17/15 05:04 AM
Yup The panelboard enclosure is Tupperware sort of stuff, pretty flexible. It makes a Gray Carlon J box look like a safe.
Posted By: geoff in UK Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/17/15 09:29 AM
Single pole main switch. Is that common? I've not seen it in UK or Europe.
Posted By: uksparx Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/17/15 11:11 AM
The switch on the receptacle does control the power to it, that is the norm here in the UK too. In fact, a lot of that in the pictures is very similar to UK wiring. Except, we seem to be heading down a bit of an odd route at the moment, supposedly harmonising with Europe, though, in the latest version of BS7671 ( the wiring code book to you guys), there are a lot of "UK specific" rules. We did move from the "normal" colour code of red/black aome years ago, to a brown/blue one. Also, interesting to note, that in safety concious NZ, they are still using plastic consumer units (panel boards) - we are banning their use here from the end of the year. We then go back to all metal, even though the rules state, they must only be non flammable, but somehow, the guy running the update course, said that means steel?? The single pole main switch is very interesting, according to things here a "main switch" or disconnector, must break both live and neutral.
Posted By: electure Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/17/15 02:31 PM
Some of those hotel panels have tamper switches that are tied into the fire alarm system.

I imagine you would have a real mess on your hands had you run across one of those and the FD had showed up with lights and sirens while you were doing your "inspection".
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/17/15 11:08 PM
There seems to only one phase leg feeding this panel hence a single pole disconnect. Yes each receptacle has a separate switch. I did figure out what the wood stick is for. You are supposed to stick the tag on your room key in there to activate the light but that hotel had a small metal key tag that was not big enough to activate the switches. Leave the room, take your key, turn out all the lights. Seems reasonable.
Posted By: geoff in UK Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/18/15 09:44 AM
I've seen plenty of those key-tag operated switches but I would have expected an associated relay in the panel to switch off the air conditioner.
I've never actually "inspected" a panel like you did, but I have often heard the relay operate.
That arrangement can be a pain if there are two in the room and one wants to go out! I've taken the key off the tag before today.
Posted By: ghost307 Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/18/15 05:43 PM
In some places taking the 'key' out of that holder also resets the HVAC and turns off some of the receptacles. I found that out one time when my laptop charger was plugged into the one outlet that went off whenever I left the room.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/18/15 11:37 PM
Yup, same thing here. I got back last night and my laptop was dead. It was on the same circuit as the TV and desk lamp.
The hotel where I looked in the panel did not have the key tag switch. We have been in a half dozen places so far. only 2 had the switch, one had a stick in it. This one gave us an extra key and said we didn't have to use the one in the switch.

I think it is tough on housekeeping
Posted By: ghost307 Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/19/15 04:32 PM
I always ask for 2 keycards so I have 1 to leave in the dumb slot during my stay.

It really sucks when you come back to the room to find out that the A/C has been turned down so low that it will be hours before the room gets comfortable.
Posted By: wa2ise Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/19/15 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by ghost307
In some places taking the 'key' out of that holder also resets the HVAC ....


They had the same thing in a hotel in Cairns, Queensland, Australia I stayed in back in 1986. I later found out electric rates in Australia are north of 30 cents/kilowatthour. shocked And I thought the 16 cents Pubic Service Electric and Gas charges was pricey...
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/21/15 10:39 AM
I notice a couple things missing, from what we see

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/22/15 11:51 AM
Single phase is fairly uncommon in Germany but main switches over there usually only switch the phases and not the neutral. In Austria I've never seen a main switch, usually the RCD performs that function (theoretically you're supposed to have more than one to prevent the whole place from going dark if the RCD trips but I've never seen that in homes other than mansions, except in places I wired myself).

Steel consumer units are virtually unknown on the continent, flame retardant plastic is the way to go. Could have something to do with TT supplies where you aren't supposed to earth anything that isn't on an RCD (hard to get the earth resistance low enough to trip a 25 A+ main fuse or even 100+ in case of a riser mains in case of an earth fault). Meter cabinets are occasionally steel but double isolation still has to be achieved as far as I know. Back in the old days of homebrew steel enclosures we'd sleeve the individual wires with flexible conduit at the meter, resulting in something like UK double-isolated meter tails. I last did that in 2003, not sure if such cabinets are still acceptable.

The flying splice in the consumer unit wouldn't fly here, although it's fairly common to do that. No inspections round here... and little testing done by the electricians too. Unless forced by some authority or the customer, most electricians will stick a voltage tester into the sockets at best. No isolation testing, RCD test etc. (all required by the regulations).
Posted By: Trumpy Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/24/15 01:48 AM
Gidday Greg,
I hope you're enjoying your stay over here.
Just a few comments on your pics, if I may.
Please bear in mind that our motel rooms are built to a price (cheap as possible), the architect will stipulate where they want everything installed and as long as it's not electrically unsafe, the electrician will pretty much do as they are told.
I understand what you're saying about the placement of the light switches though, you'd think that the architect had been smoking crack before planning a lot of the motel
lighting plans (at least the ones I've been in anyway).
The layout of that room is dangerous to say the least, especially them tiled steps, get them wet and you've got a slipping hazard.

Greg,
The reasoning behind that master switch at the entrance is this, it's pretty common for people to hire a room, go inside, shower, get changed and leave the room with the lights and heating on and come back in X number of hours later to sleep, our electricity is quite expensive here, even at a commercial rate.
Not sure about the stick they're using there, but originally there would have been a plastic tag that
has the room key attached to it, so you can't lock your room up without turning off the lights and heating.

Something looks strange about the 4th picture you've posted, that is supposed to have a socket-outlet on the end of it, the black wires are neutral conductors, the red wires are the phase conductors, the phase and neutral conductors need to be twisted to each other or the socket-outlets downstream won't work, this is what we call a "loop circuit" over here.
Our 230VAC is derived from a single winding of a delta-star three-phase transformer, plus the neutral that is taken from the star-point of that transformer, the star-point is also earthed, this system of supply is called the multiple-earthed-neutral system.

Them plug-tops are becoming more and more common over here, they are designed so that elderly people that may have arthritis can easily withdraw the plug, should this be necessary.

I note in that sub-main panel you posted, the electrician has chosen to put more than one wire into the terminals of the neutral and earth busbars, this is no longer allowed with new work over here, in that you have to be able to disconnect a circuit without affecting the neutral or earth conductor of another circuit.

Not sure what your problem is with the hair-dryer, would you care to elaborate?







Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/24/15 02:56 AM
In the US a hair dryer will have an immersion detector in the plug and it will be grounded.

I am back now but still a little shaky from 54 hours in transit. We did have a great time in New Zealand and I recommend it for anyone who likes beautiful places and friendly people.
Driving on the "wrong" side of the road can be tricky tho.

I did manage to get about 2000 km on 2 rentals with no dents.
(One in the south and one in the north)
We got around quite a bit.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/24/15 04:56 AM
Greg,
Our Operations Manager at work is from South Dakota, he's been here about a year or so, he pretty much said the same thing, driving all your life on the "right" side of the road and then come here. laugh

With respect to the hair dryer, it does not need an earth because it has Class II insulation (Double Insulation), the RCD in the switchboard will protect anyone from electric shock.

It's a shame we never caught up, I only saw this thread of yours after you would have been in the North Island, I could have shown you around some of our HV stuff and a decent commercial install.

Glad you had a good time here, I mean it was never going to be as good as the US, in terms of the size of things, while the people are friendly, it's like anywhere I suppose, you can get mugged or shot in some parts of Wellington or Auckland, just like you can in a few places in the US.
What did you think of our roads here?, of course they'll never be as wide as in the US, but the quality of our roads are terrible, what do you think?

So Greg, what did you see in NZ?
I hope for Godsakes you saw the glow-worms at Waitomo caves?
It's a shame you didn't spend more time in the South Island, it is the prime time for fishing salmon and trout out of the southern lakes. wink
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/24/15 03:25 PM
I thought the roads were great. I understand you don't have interstates but we were not going that far at any given time so that was not an issue and there were only a few places where I thought they were narrow. The main roads are as nice as any 2 lane blacktop in the US and better maintained than most in the Northeast here.

This is an idea of where we went (the hotels)
[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]
Posted By: geoff in UK Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/24/15 07:51 PM
Driving either hand is an acquired skill. Living in UK ,(left) and frequently visiting Europe, (right), it soon becomes second nature, though I do prefer a hire car so that the driving seat is in the right place.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/27/15 05:16 PM
In Germany (and probably Austria) hairdryers HAVE to be class 2 and that's been in effect since the early 60s I think. There's an endless thread on submerged hairdryers in a German forum and the consensus seems to be that in a bath with non-metallic drain it could happily keep running without tripping the RCD but killing anyone in the bath.

Isn't the "loop circuit" what you'd refer to as daisy-chained outlets in the US? That'd be one cable starting out from the MCB, going to the first socket, then another from the first to the second and so on, all sockets in parallel but if you disconnect the outgoing wires all downstream sockets are dead.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/29/15 12:59 AM
Until the mid-90's, American hair dryers were double insulated (2-prong plugs). Then the standard was changed, hair dryers removed from the market, and new units offered with 3-prong plugs mounted on these massive "wall wart" type "Immersion detection current interrupters."

As best I can tell, the ground prong only serves to let the test function of the detector work.

Joe Tedesco once had a thread at this forum, where he showed such a 'detector' equipped hair dryer happily running while floating in a sink full of water.

Keep in mind that US codes REQUIRE a 20-amp 120-volt receptacle in the bath, near the sink. This is quite the opposite to other places, many of which either ban any receptacles in the bathroom, or severely limit their available power.

A "loop circuit" is powered from BOTH ends. The wire goes from panel to the receptacles and back to the hot side of the panel again. You have to interrupt power to both sides of the loop to remove power from the circuit. This is NOT what we use in the US.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/29/15 04:38 AM
The Immersion detector is a special purpose GFCI that incorporates a ring in the discharge chute which is connected to the ground in the plug, so that video Joe has was before the immersion detector.
If any current flows in that ring circuit, the GFCI is unbalanced and the detector trips.
As has been pointed out before, the simple GFCI might not trip if there is no ground path in the sink.
Posted By: RODALCO Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/31/15 02:50 AM
Great to hear that you had a good time in NZ.
Yes our electrical systems are a bit different then in the USA.
Single pole switching because we use the MEN system here
( Multiple Earth Neutral )
Never heard of a fire alarm tamper detector in a motel MCB board as these devices are supposed to be separately wired from 240 Volts mains wiring.
A heat or smoke detector may be located nearby.
We still use the old English colours for fixed TPS house wiring.
Red (Phase) Black (Neutral) and Green or Yellow Green (Earth).
For flex leads we use Brown (Phase) LightBlue (Neutral) GreenYellow (Earth)
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/31/15 03:25 AM
I did see another interesting thing
You guys use something that looks like Smurf tube (type ENT), outside. That is dry only here.

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]

[Linked Image from gfretwell.com]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/31/15 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by renosteinke
A "loop circuit" is powered from BOTH ends. The wire goes from panel to the receptacles and back to the hot side of the panel again.

Umm, no it isn't, John.
Texas-Ranger, described the loop circuit above, what you're thinking of is a RING circuit, where the phase wire at each end of the circuit is fed by the same fuse/CB and each plug in the circuit has a lower rated fuse installed in it, to protect the connected appliance.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/31/15 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
I did see another interesting thing
You guys use something that looks like Smurf tube (type ENT), outside. That is dry only here.

Greg, that looks like either a plumber or an apprentice installed that.
That stuff is known as Bettaflex here, or flexible medium-duty PVC conduit.
It's used by people that can't use a bending spring on rigid PVC conduit.
Reason I say a plumber may have been involved is that that saddle to the right of the socket-outlet is a pipe saddle made for 3/4" pressure pipe, which is bigger than 20mm conduit. crazy
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/31/15 04:58 AM
Well this is in the food court on "Eat Street" in Rotorua if you want to go get them. wink
Posted By: renosteinke Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 05/31/15 08:33 PM
I stand corrected .... It's too easy to thing of "loop" and "ring" as having the same meaning!

(Indeed, downtown Chicago has a ring of elevated train track completely around it; hence, the downtown area is known as "The Loop.")
Posted By: electure Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 06/01/15 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by renosteinke
Until the mid-90's, American hair dryers were double insulated (2-prong plugs). Then the standard was changed, hair dryers removed from the market, and new units offered with 3-prong plugs mounted on these massive "wall wart" type "Immersion detection current interrupters."

As best I can tell, the ground prong only serves to let the test function of the detector work.

Joe Tedesco once had a thread at this forum, where he showed such a 'detector' equipped hair dryer happily running while floating in a sink full of water.


All the hair dryers I've seen have 2 prong plugs on the immersion detectors. They can be plugged into either a 2 or 3 wire receptacle

Joe T's hair dryer just had about 90 seconds of a hair dryer in a sink full of water, with no comments.

Mike Holt has a video on the same subject with in detail explanations of the theory behind why it didn't trip the GFI.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kioaW9yEjYI

In short, the water had no reference to ground. If he'd have touched the water, and come into contact with a grounded surface, the GFI would have tripped.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 06/03/15 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by Trumpy
Originally Posted by gfretwell
I did see another interesting thing
You guys use something that looks like Smurf tube (type ENT), outside. That is dry only here.

Greg, that looks like either a plumber or an apprentice installed that.
That stuff is known as Bettaflex here, or flexible medium-duty PVC conduit.
It's used by people that can't use a bending spring on rigid PVC conduit.
Reason I say a plumber may have been involved is that that saddle to the right of the socket-outlet is a pipe saddle made for 3/4" pressure pipe, which is bigger than 20mm conduit. crazy


The pipe looks familiar, the type of installation not really. Usually cable would be used under such circumstances and the conduit would only serve as sleeving with open bends to provide minimal added protection and mainly mechanical fastening. If I remember it I'll take a picture of the wiring in our cellar, which is pretty typical of such rooms.

Occasionally you see that type of light grey rigid conduit used outdoors in direct sunlight. Usually it's all bowed downwards in horizontal runs and cracked all over. Cable has to be UV resistant too but most people don't seem to care at all.

I don't think anyone used a bending spring here from the mid-70s onwards. They're still in manufacturer's catalogues but I haven't seen them for sale anywhere, only for copper plumbing pipes.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 06/03/15 04:15 PM
Type ENT the closest thing we have to this, is only listed for inside use. I have been testing some on my boat and 20
years later it does seem to be holding up pretty well tho.
3/4" seems to be the perfect size to sleeve the steering cable.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 06/04/15 09:04 AM
Electure,
Ironically, I accidentally had my 2000Watt heat gun fall into a tub of water yesterday out on site, with it still plugged in.
I unplugged it quick-smart and there was a bit of steam (as it had just been used), it tripped the RCD in the switchboard, even though it is double-insulated (2-prong plug).
I opened it up last night here at home and dried it out, I used it on a job this morning, no worries at all! grin
Posted By: Trumpy Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 06/04/15 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by Texas_Ranger
Occasionally you see that type of light grey rigid conduit used outdoors in direct sunlight. Usually it's all bowed downwards in horizontal runs and cracked all over. Cable has to be UV resistant too but most people don't seem to care at all.

I don't think anyone used a bending spring here from the mid-70s onwards. They're still in manufacturer's catalogues but I haven't seen them for sale anywhere, only for copper plumbing pipes.


Ragner,
We have a hole in the ozone layer down here that gets bigger or smaller with the change in seasons, our UV levels down here in the summer, with no cloud cover can be really horrendous on PVC, other wiring materials and people if they aren't careful.
All PVC that we use here needs to be "UV-stabilised" or it won't last more than a couple of years.

Bending springs are what I was bought up with here, one of the first jobs you'll be given here as an apprentice, is to bend up some crazy looking off-set, with measurements from your boss and by God, you'd better have it right the first time! crazy

Bear in mind Ragner, all PVC bending springs are internal springs that go inside the conduit, you don't need any heat (unless it's the middle of winter), just rub it with your hand and bend the conduit under your knee-cap, easy as.
Anything over 1 1/4 (32mm), I just prefer to use pre-formed 45 and 90° bends/elbows, that's what they make them for.

Bending springs for soft-copper tubing are always external springs, I used to do a bit of refrigeration stuff a few years back, I've forgotten most of it these days, but this is mainly to support the inner radius of the bend to prevent it from kinking over or rippling as the bend is done.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 06/05/15 10:18 PM
I've seen pictures of PVC conduit bending springs and read articles about using them but these articles were from the late 50s when non-metallic conduit was new and all the rage. That old conduit (yellow or dark grey) had much thinner walls than the current stuff so I'm not quite sure how well you could bend modern conduit - I'd definitely give it a try if I could round up an affordable bending spring but I haven't seen one yet.

These days no one bends conduit any more. That's what you'd typically find in any cellar, garage or storage room:
http://catalog.obo-bettermann.com/c.../images/content/de-de/Wohnungsbau_14.jpg

Back in the old days they used clips like these and fastened exposed cables to the wall but that requires clips every 20-30 cm and getting it neat isn't that easy.

http://www.produktgesellschaft.de/neuigkeiten/ip44_2.jpg

The picture is a replica, clips are something like 1 Euro each and the switches are close to 100 Euros each I think. A regular IP 44 switch is less than 20 Euros, a cheap one at the DIY store probably only 4.99.
Posted By: NORCAL Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 06/06/15 05:41 AM
When I was in Germany in 2006, a hotel that stayed at had the same switch that the door card was placed in to turn on the room power, the wallet card from the CSLB, Contractors State License Board (CA) worked quite well.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: New Zealand is an interesting place - 06/06/15 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by NORCAL
When I was in Germany in 2006, a hotel that stayed at had the same switch that the door card was placed in to turn on the room power, the wallet card from the CSLB, Contractors State License Board (CA) worked quite well.

So I take it Rollie, that trunk-slammers aren't welcome in Germany. grin
© ECN Electrical Forums