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Posted By: Texas_Ranger VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 10/14/13 12:22 PM
From what I've gathered, the German VDE 0100 is to introduce AFCIs in their next edition. I don't think they'll be mandatory, but so far I'm not aware of any other European regulations even mentioning AFCIs. The German term translates to "Fire prevention switch". Interestingly enough, a German name was chosen, whereas a few years ago attempts were made to introduce all-English terms for various devices, e.g. RCD instead of FI-Schutzschalter. The current edition uses the German term again.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 10/22/13 12:36 PM
The uncomfortable truth is that, [although we don't do politics here], the European Project is falling apart and National Standards are reappearing. The Brits will likely take their cricket bat and ball home as soon as they get a referendum, Germany has resurgent patriotism and the unspeakable National Front hung the Socialists and Gaullists out to dry in recent local elections in France, with one in 4+ voting for them. No surprise with 25%+ unemployment in southern Europe and getting worse.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 10/26/13 01:12 PM
I'm not that sure about that. Far from wanting to leave the EU, Germany is actually trying to take the lead and pull the cart out of the mud, regardless of whether we think their methods and ideas are up to the task or not.

Technical standards are an entirely different matter. While we have the various harmonisition documents, about every country has so many national addendums that the actual regulations vary considerably. I see this all the time with Germans trying to give advice to Austrian DIYers (or even prfessionals in fields they aren't familiar with) and vice versa. For example, in a German TT supply with RCD-protected circuits the earth resistance is only limited by the prospective fault current, that's around 1600 Ohms for a 30 mA RCD. In Austria, there's an absolute limit of 100(!) Ohms, less than 1/10. A German setup would instantly fail testing for that reason (unless earth resistance happened to be low enough anyway). The Brits and Irish extended zone 2 in bathrooms (surrounding baths and showers) from 60 cm to 2 m, the Belgians added a zone 3 (essentially to the same effect), etc. etc.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 11/02/13 07:03 AM
Hi Ragner,
I'd like to put my spoke into this wheel.
Over here in NZ, there are moves (from I don't know where), to maybe convert us to a TT supply system, when we currently use the TN-C-S (Multiple-Earthed Neutral), this is the same system used in Australia and it works down here, why change it?
AFCI's are not going to do a damned thing for anyone, it will save no more lives than a smoke detector, but it will end up being bypassed when it gives false trips.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 11/03/13 12:37 PM
I'm not exactly pleased by this development either and I'm afraid we'll eventually end up seeing it in Austria too. The fact alone that nobody but the manufacturer knows how an AFCI works is enough to give me serious doubts. By comparison, the way an RCD works is well-documented and it is fairly easy to determine whether an RCD works as it should.

It's interesting to see that NZ is converting to TT, whereas Austria has been going the opposite route for the past 15 years. In 1998, the TN-C directive was introduced, effectively a national law forcing the conversion of all supplies to TN (with very few exceptions such as installations in the immediate vicinity of 16.7 Hz railway power systems). TT supplies now require two series-wired RCDs as backup protection.
Posted By: sparky Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 11/07/13 03:03 PM
I've heard the afci is being marketed abroad, but i don't understand how they could replace the RCD's

~S~
Posted By: andey Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 01/12/14 03:57 PM
I dont think they are meant to replace GFCIs but as an addition
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 01/13/14 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by andey
I dont think they are meant to replace GFCIs but as an addition

Probably, or as combo devices.
Posted By: LongRunner Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 01/15/18 04:38 PM
They may come to Australia next: http://www.ecdonline.com.au/content...-the-risk-of-electrical-fires-1188033210

High-frequency noise is mentioned as a way of detection, but how are they going to reliably ignore noise from things like switching power supplies and brush motors? (Sure, such items have filters; but they don't completely block RF, and the filter capacitors can deteriorate and drop in capacitance.)

And if they're so confident in the efficacy of AFCIs, why can't they come up with a standardised test?

I'd just want to see independent proof of their performance in realistic scenarios, to be convinced. (I can't say I've succeeded in maintaining an arc between a normal 240V plug and socket under load, so make of that what you will...)
Posted By: sparky Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 01/16/18 11:36 PM
Question for you LongRunner, does Oz use RCD's @ 30ma?

Mains @ 100ma ?

~S~
Posted By: LongRunner Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 01/17/18 03:32 PM
30mA, generally (though 10mA RCD outlets are available for medical applications). At least 2 RCDs are required in an Australian home, and each RCD may feed a maximum of 3 subcircuits.

Normally we use the Multiple Earthed Neutral system (similar to Protective Multiple Earthing in the UK), which does not require a main RCD as used with TT systems.
Posted By: sparky Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 01/20/18 01:03 AM
Thx LongRunner

I gotta keep referencing these earthing systems you folks are talking about ,so bear with me.

So, if you're using 30ma RCD's , are they now going to be marketed as 30ma afci RCD's?

~S~
Posted By: uksparx Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 01/20/18 06:30 PM
hmm, reading some snippets from the upcoming new regulations here in the UK, it looks like we are going to have to deal with the horrors that are AFCIs here very soon!
Posted By: sparky Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 01/20/18 10:09 PM
Ok Uksparx, i'm going to let you in on the dirty little afci secret. They are no more than what your RCD's already are. AFCI technology is based on time honored toroidal coils

This is the heart of your RCD's

No matter how much electronica one places in line with a toroidal, it will all only sense what a toroidal can sense

Our testing labs devised a 15KV 'simulator' , which energized a piece of zip (lamp) cord , with a cut in it AND wrapped in flammable tape to pass a 'series arc' test here

The rest is afci "combination" history

I would like to think your country has a tad more integrity in it's validation of consumables

~S~
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: VDE 0100 to introduce AFCIs - 02/12/18 07:36 PM
No, there are no combined RCD/AFDD devices as far as I know, the DIN rail AFDDs are in series with an RCD where RCD protection is required.
According to a Siemens representative quite a few high-load circuits won't ever see AFDD protection since it's technically impossible to design a three-phase AFDD and most significant household appliances (cooker, tankless water heater) are three-phase loads.
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