I've been reading a few articles around the internet that are suggesting that Denmark will be changing over to CEE 7/5 socket outlets i.e. French-style 16A sockets with an earthing pin from 2008/2009.

At present the Danish socket is a bit problematic from a safety point of view. It's got exactly the same pin configuration as a common earthed 16A European CEE 7/7 plug, but has no means of making contact with the ground terminals.

i.e. you can plug a French, German, Swedish, Finnish or Norwegian earthed (grounded) plug into a Danish socket, get power but no earth connection.

The Danish plug has a 3rd pin to achieve the earth connection.

It seems that CEE 7/5 will be adopted as it gives the Danes a polarised setup that accepts CEE 7/7 plugs (the harmonised Schuko-style plug found on almost all European appliances thesedays)

It's not a huge change, but it does mean they gain full compatibility with their near neighbours in Scandinavia and Germany without loosing polarised connectors!

Although, you can be sure any CEE 7/5 socket in Denmark will be designed to Danish standards i.e. boxes, screws, requirements for shuttering etc.

Just to irritate the British members on the board.. Do you think perhaps a BS version of CEE 7/5 could be used in the UK ? All that would be required for compatibility with ring circuits would be a fused socket.

Danish Wall socket + light switch


Danish Plug


French CEE 7/5 socket outlet.


CEE 7/7 Plug - de facto European standard - fits CEE 7/4 (Schuko) and CEE 7/5 (French) grounded outlets without any complications.
When used with CEE 7/5 it's (in theory) polarised.

Note that while the Schuko plug is unsafe in Denmark, it is the standard and also carries a D-mark (Demko)...

Maybe, just maybe, this has something to do with LK's monopoly on sockets and light switches on the Danish market. :-) The boxes are different too, in another move to keep foreign suppliers out. If Denmark changes to French style, the customers may go all the way and change boxes, killing the market for LK in the process...

This question was actually up with one of the ministers a couple of years ago. In his response he agrees it is a strange situation and that in a modern installation with and RCD it is no disaster no having the grounding. Consequently, from 1. July 2008 the French outlets will be permitted and all buildings will be required to have RCD's.

Response from minister (in Danish)

Oh, I forgot: Some Danish two pin plugs can jam in Schuko socket, halfway in. This was considered a fire hazard. Therefore the French outlet with a pin. Polarity is a non-issue, I think.

That's pretty amazing that the minister knows anything about a technical issue. Over here you'd be referred to the ETCI :P
The minister would be wondering if an RCD was some new political party he/she hadn't heard of yet !

If you read some of the debates on electrical standards here from the 1950s/60s you realise just how clueless they were!
All of the real work happens at technical bodies ministers are generally quite clueless.

The reason we adopted BS1363 as an exclusive standard was for pretty much the same reason though.
We'd a situation where Schuko existed along side various BS546 sockets and there were quite a lot of shocks caused by appliances being connected to sockets that were not making earth contact i.e. schuko jammed into BS546 or BS1363.

So, BS1363 was transposed into Irish standards as IS 401 and enforced strictly. The other standards have effectively completely vanished.

It's no longer legal to sell an appliance for domestic use without an IS401 or BS1363 approved plug fitted and it's been that way for quite a long time.

I use both types, due to dragging a lot of stuff here when we moved, [ my preconceptions were dragged along too! ]. I have to say I'm on the verge of dumping all my Brit plugs and sockets, mainly in the workshop, in favor of the French ones, as not much Brit stuff is left that works after 7 years.
The French stuff works ok, now we have opted for LeGrande Mosaic. I have a lot of suspended french receptacles mounted 2 metres off the deck in the shop for portable tools, which is great for working around jobs with the router &c.. My only gripe is the Frog extension reels. Of all the receptacles, these reels are an absolute pita getting a plug inserted when using tools away from the fixed outlets. The shutter mechanisms seem to rapidly wear out. Must be all that dried blanc-mange* Dave!

*blanc-mange, the white-eat of technology!

Your ministers don't do the "You write, I sign"-trick?

Oh they're masters of it!!

There's been talk about this sort of thing on and off, but I think the IEE would put up huge resistance to moving away from BS1363.

If there were both fused and unfused versions available here (the latter for radials), then you can bet it wouldn't be long before people started using the unfused versions on ring circuits.

Paul, they are doing it now, coming back from France and Spain with hairdriers, kettles etc. and a nice little adaptor from the shop on the ferry....

Yes, indeed they are - I have a couple of examples of these adaptors without fuses. Plug straight into the 13Amp socket, no fuse then plug in your schuko/euro plug. I also have one from the US that does the same - probably about time we really did ditch the ring circuit!! In fact I very rarely ever install them now, radials are much better.

These adaptors, including the ones bought for use in France, are dangerous because they not only don't have a fuse, they are rated [ by who one asks?] at only 7.5A which is not much more than 1.7kw. Plug a British 3kw heater in to it and the adaptor melts, as a friend of mine found out a few months ago. Mind you, he is a lovable old twerp, but that's not the point.
I have one here in front of me now, out of a box of junk for the Dogs' Home Fundraiser. No maker name, no CE mark, no kite mark, but it has "DO NOT USE IN UK" "CONTINENTAL ADAPTOR" and "7.5AMP. 110-250V" molded on the front. On the back it reads: "Ref 14***[unreadable]. "Registered Design", and a large letter "A"

I think they need to crack down on adaptors - there are some really dodgy ones out there.

I've seen some dire BS1363 > CEE 7/7 too - grossly underrated, or that do not properly complete the earth connection.

Why can't they be rated 13A and fused if CEE 7/7 > BS1363
and 16A to CEE 7/7

It seems to me the manufacturers are basing designs on ancient assessments of Euro and other sockets.

i.e. rather than safety, they're trying for something that fits any ancient 2-pin European socket, so they put in tiny pins.

You said it -- Ill-fitting contacts, incomplete earth paths, adapters to go into BS1363 outlets which have no integral fuse.....

There are others that are genuinely well made though. Picked one up in Dublin Airport on the way out to France a few weeks ago.
Double BS1363, to spec and a proper CEE 7/7 plug with full size pins.
Device rated 16A

It's one area where CENELEC could step in and provide a framework for standardising adaptors and perhaps getting a EN that's enforced Europe wide.

Cenelec could work with their counterparts in the US too to get some kind of NEMA-CEE 7/7, BS1363 etc standardised safely.

I've seen them all, and I still think the British (and Irish) plugs and sockets are the best around. Neat and good fitting Wonder why they have not been adopted more widely?
Michael.

1: They are too big for domestic appliances.

2: They have that pesky fuse.

3: The existing standard is too entrenched to change out.

More likely:

1) The existing standard is too entrenched to change out.

2) The existing standard is too entrenched to change out.

3) The existing standard is too entrenched to change out.

Maybe three more on the order of, somebody's profit goes away if the standard changes.

1. That pesky fuse is there for a reason- the widespread use of the ring main in the UK. Changing a fuse with a knife out of the cutlery drawer is a pleasurable man's thing, IMO. Not quite so macho with the factory molded plugs of course. Those have a stupid little plastic fuse retainer that you have to winkle out with a dessert fork!
Even a wife can change those!

2. Too big? A Brit 1363 plug, crafted from solid bakelite [or truly unbreakable, rubber] and with its massive pins, will last forever. I can tell you that they ain't too big inside, very often you have to lever the wires into place with a meat-skewer to get the lid on! I have quite a few in my boxes of bits that must be 40 or 50 years old and still serviceable. Every time a piece of electrical equipment went to that rubbish tip in the sky we used to cut the plug and as much cable as possible off beforehand, ["that'll come in handy one day"]. The parts are not interchangeable though, each maker's backplate, cable clamps, pins and fuseholders are all slightly different. But there's the challenge! A British Standard Junkbox also contains many plug parts in various states of disassembly. Can I make one up from these bits?

3: The existing standard is too entrenched to change out.
There was a time when we Brits didn't give a flying monkeys about Johnny Foreigner and his shoddy, flimsy products, made out of recycled yogurt pots and designed to fall apart the day after the guarantee ran out.

BS1363 and CEE 7/4 (Schuko) and CEE 7/5 (French) are not exactly that different in terms of size and the good quality versions will easily last 100+ years without any issue. They're all enormous and built like industrial equipment in comparison to their flimsy North American and Australian cousins

The moulded versions of BS1363 are also now getting much neater, and we're starting to see versions that are very similarly sized to a moulded Schuko. Materials have improved since the 1940s and there's no need to make everything out of bakelite in 2007 !

Yep, who doesn't have a pile of these "classic" 1950s/60s MK plugs laying around? I still have a lot of them in service at 40+ years old, and they're far better than a lot of the modern types.








And MMK, welcome to the forum!

Still, the pin size and spacing is quite some example of overengineering. The widespread use of angle plugs (well, that should rather read "exclusive") makes for nice foot traps walking barefoot in dark rooms... lightly stepped on a BS 1363 plug once, no thanks. Unsleeved pin plugs are about as scary to plug in and unplug as the long-illegal predecessor of the Euro plug (flat, unsleeved pins) but the plugs are still far more common,...
Breaking a cheap Schuko plug is about as easy as breaking the Made in China BS1363 plugs I have at home... quality plugs are fairly solid either way.

By the relation of exterior size and wiring space I'd say quality Schuko plugs are quite ok too.

Rewireable NEMA plugs are generally a lot bigger than their molded cousins and don't fit any more in tight spaces.

Dave, I still feel a tinge of regret when I cut a molded BS1363 plug off to put on a CEE for domestic appliances bought in Blighty and have to put the molded one in the garbage. Just the way I was dragged up I suppose- I get the same downer when I see folks wasting good food. Nothing left on my plate except the pattern- I woff the lot!

The latest French stuff, sockets and plugs etc, is actually very servicable. Molded CEEs are really nice quality.
In the shop, a real advantage of the inline French plug is that I've arranged pendant sockets, suspended from the A frames. These, [ I have 5 so far, one of which runs along a taut stainless steel cable on a bronze slider-cum-cable-clamp], are a real boon when using portable power tools; router, sanders, biscuit jointer etc. No cables on the floor and a direct pull to disconnect.

The question is why not adopt BS1363 elsewhere.

Most other places are wired with radial circuits fused at 16A, on average (up to 20A in 120V land), although a fused plug, if treated with the respect it deserves (like that will happen), could curb accidents caused by the misuse and miscare of non-fused cords.

For maybe a 2.5KW kettle or a clothes washer, they aren't so bad. For my camera charger, it would seem a bit "big"

I do get you on the flimsy plugs made from recycled yogurt tubs though.

It is indeed, but then the old BS546 round-pin plugs were similar. The 5 and 15-amp ratings are very conservative. I'd bet that BS546 connectors would probably carry at least double those currents safely.

Actually, I find it kind of ironic that a large proportion of electrical equipment in homes now doesn't need the hefty 13A plugs. BS546 5A would have provided adequate capacity for all smaller appliances in a neater package.



I've stepped on them quite heavily more than once. It hurts!

The only problem with BS546 was the fact that it had at least 3 commonly used 3 pin plugs which were completely incompatible with each other depending on how they were rated!

Personally, I do think you need a non-rewirable 2-pin option like Europlug, but alas, given the ring circuit layout in use in the UK that's highly unlikely to ever come into existence !

Another major kicker in my book was that a 2-pin plug of whatever rating had different pin spacing from the 3-pin version, e.g. 2-pin 5A plug doesn't fit a 3-pin 5A socket. Of course, with BS1363 we have to have an earth pin even if not needed (and even if it's just plastic as on many of the modern molded plugs on 2-conductor cords).

It is actually rather annoying when you end up with a laptop case full of various devices with BS1363 plugs though. It's then you start going, why don't we have Europlugs!!

My personal guess would be that a 2A plug with sturdy interior design would have been more than happy to carry 15A, after all the pins aren't much thinner than those of a Schuko plug. And unlike Swiss plugs (where I heard of that quite frequently) Schuko plugs are pretty unlikely to overheat and melt down unless the terminals inside are loose. Swiss and Italian 10A plugs as well as AS/NZ plugs seem to have the issue that the sheathing on the already rather thin pins (remember, Swiss and Italian pins are the same size as Euro plug pins but rated 10A instead of 2.5) reduces the cross section even further. In Italy this is even aggravated as the sockets are usually dual rated 10/16A, so the 10A plugs rely on the appliance limiting the current.

Each member state of the EC guards its own vested interests and it's not just in what sort of plugs we use. We Brits know from experience [ inch, foot, mile, pound, Fahrenheit, bent bananas, sausages, etc.], that if we did have a Standard European Plug That Integrates Countries, [SEPTIC], it bloody well wouldn't be ours! Now that we have a 'Constitution' that dare not speak its name, ie with no British veto, guess who's plug gets it in the shorts when some bureaucrat decides we must unify?

A rewireable replacement would also be nice....for when the existing molded-on plugs fail. As they sometimes do (wires and insulation going to the plug sometimes break if it's been abused or accidentally yanked).

I'm waiting for the day one of them says we must all have a common language!

YES!!! WE ARE THE CHAMPIONS!!!!

We do when it come down to industrial plugs(BSEN 60309) and sockets but the big problem is the when it comes to the domestic scenario where each country has its own standard.

By Euro plug we commonly refer to the flat, 2.5A rated household connector which fits all European sockets except for BS 1363.

Well, one large country (UK), and a few small ones (Ireland 4.2 million), Cyprus (small), Malta (small!) isn't really going to sway the balance in favour of changing the entire EU over to BS1363. Let's face it none of them are ideal standards.
BS1363 is enormous and has limited contact areas due to the use of sleeves on the pins.
Schuko's not polarised and inadvertently able to mate with various non-grounded or differently grounded outlets..

they could have killed two birds with one stone and come up with something sensible to replace both of them!

Personally, I think it's an opportunity missed though. They could have standardised to a modern, non-bulky alternative to BS1363, Schuko and the various other systems back in about 1972 when small appliances were less common and people didn't carry things around as much. When they were harmonising the flexible cable colours, they could have also mandated a new plug. The UK couldn't have really complained given at that stage it had a cludge of BS546 (umpteen variations) and Bs1363 and shipped almost all appliances without a plug !!! Same for Ireland.

It'd be an absolute nightmare to change now.

Alternatively, they could just ship EVERYTHING with a keyed (by cable rating) IEC connector, that way you could fit your own cable. IT equipment does it, so why not just do everything that way ?!

I think the problem is going to take care of itself over time... some countries do an official changeover, others change gradually like Italy... I guess in the end that'll leave the UK and Ireland the only countries without CEE 7/7 plugs. Countries worrying about polarization adopt the Frnch style, the others Schuko, plugs are designed for both sockets and everybody is happy.

The Schuko plug was deliberately designed to plug into ungrounded sockets - the idea being, reducing a Class I appliance to a class 0 in a class 0 environment does not pose any increased danger while using a class 0 appliance in an environment with grounded metal surfaces present does.

The only real problem were the old Danish receptacles that accepted Schuko plugs but did not ground them and they're being phased out right now.

Stop dreaming of getting the entire EU or even the world to standardize on one plug by force... I'd be glad already if we ended up with all 110/120V countries using NEMA patterns and all 220/230V countries using either CEE 7/ or AS/NZ plugs.