People here in New Zealand are required to have a WOF(Warrant of Fitness) on any vehicle they own if it is to be used on NZ roads.
The idea of a WOF on a house as proposed, really raises my hackles.
A story from Stuff.co.nz
OK, there are a lot of new houses in NZ here, however there are also a lot of older places lived in by either elderly or those that could not afford to have the walls of their houses ripped out and filled with Pink Batts (Fibre-glass) Insulation.
The other two aspects of this plan have me rather worried.
The first being water heating, most houses that this thing applies to, will have old in-efficient electric hot-water cylinders, seen the price of a new cylinder these days?.
Secondly and fore-most, lighting.
OK, them Dichroic lamps they fit into new houses look pretty, but if they are supplied by wirewound ballasts, should that place be down-graded?.
I think it should.
What are we supposed to do with our lighting in our houses?, live under the bland light from a compact fluorescent lamp?.
The reason the Incandesent lamp is still so popular, is because of it's colour-rendering qualities.

IMHO, sure, if we are going to go down this track, lets look at what caused this in the first place, lack of direction from Government.
While not trying to make this thread a political thing at ALL, who should pay for all of these ideas?.
It's all very well to say "Oh, you'll get the money back in a few years and have better health".
It just seems to me to be a "Jobs for the Boys" scheme, after all someone has to inspect these houses.
Being the owner of a pre-1970's house myself, I find it rather rich that someone in authority could simply say that my house is not as good thier's, so I have to bring it up to the same standard as thiers.
Your thoughts folks?.

{Message edited to clean up format}

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 12-15-2006).]

Hi Mike, it sounds like the bureaucracy tries to prise an other tax out of us and want to create more jobs for themselves.

We have already building inspections which can be done when buying or selling a house at great cost and is voluntary and should remain so.
Same for electrical you can get a sparky to check your house and issue a COC if all is ok.

This will NOT happen and I certainly will dig my toes in and argue it with my local MP's to stop this nonsense.

It will not happen in New Zealand as long we all stick together.

The WOF for a car was $10 in 1990
now it is $45. Inspections haven't changed that much. We had VIN's etc but everytime an other clip on the ticket for something else or an other new computersystem etc.

OK my $0.02 worth on this topic.

Not a real surprise compared to Germany!
We see a parallel development here.

Ray,
I remember when I first took a car in for a WOF.
1987, it was and it cost $7, it took an hour and the mechanic said this or that needed looking at, he fixed nothing.
What has happened since?.
Are the inspection lights brighter?.
Last WOF I got here cost me $47 and still the guy did nothing, my Nissan needs work done on the injectors and it does blow a wee bit of black smoke on start-up when cold.
I'll fix it one of these days.
But,
This WOF system does nothing to keep the old pieces of rubbish off the roads.
We had a car literally fall to pieces north of town here a few weeks ago.
Anyhow, back on topic, can a WOF be seriously applied to a house?.
Houses tend to last a tad longer than cars.

Ireland's implementing energy efficiency ratings for all property sold / leased / rented. Homes will be rated in a very similar way to the way European appliances are rated i.e. A to G A = Good G = Bad across a range of areas.

It's a Europe-wide thing and I think the UK's implementing it at the moment too.

The only problem is that it really has no impact on anyone as many estate agents reckon that energy efficiency ratings simply won't impact upon the sale/rent price.
People are more concerned about location! location! location! and style issues.

I'm not clear from the article, but you're saying that these proposed standards would apply to all existing homes as well as new ones?

We have the building regulations here which stipulate certain standards for new builds and major renovations, but to try to impose changes onto existing homes is a step too far. Imagine being obliged to to re-wire sections of your home every time the Wiring Regs. were amended!

What would happen when people claim -- inevitably and truthfully -- that they simply don't have the money to bring their property up to the current specifications even if they wanted to?

Of course, as most of you know in my opinion the government already pokes its nose into our lives far too much as it is.

A very large proportion of houses in the U.K. are pre-1970s, and quite a number are pre 1870s! My own place, though rather different from the conventional British home, dates back to the 1930s, with some early 1970s additions.

In the U.K., we have a mandatory annual vehicle inspection for all cars over 3 years old, commonly referred to as the "MoT test" (Ministry of Transport). The test requirement was introduced way back in 1960, when the MoT at that time decided that there were too many dangerous old wrecks driving around. If you look back at the test requirements in the early days though, they were fairly rudimentary -- Just basic safety checks for tires, steering, brakes, suspension, lights working, etc.

Over the years though, so many things have been added to the test that it's getting silly, especially in the last few years. Now a car can fail for having a chipped windshield if the chip is in the "wrong" place, or for any one of dozens of other trivial little things. (And that's not to mention the stories about MoT inspectors picking on minor issues and missing rather more important problems such as severely corroded brake lines!)

At least the MoT has only had a couple of things applied retrospectively to older vehicles (requirement to add a windshield washer, for example).

If the principle of having to bring an old house up to the current specifications required for a new one were applied to the vehicle inspection, they'd be failing a 1975 car for having no rear fog lights, or failing a 1955 classic for having no seatbelts and ABS brakes.

Oh, and with the creep of items added to the inspection, the fee has gone up and up..... Current standard price is now over £40, although garages are free to charge less if they wish.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-15-2006).]

We are catching up fast in France.
To sell a house here now it must have a professionally prepared:
*Asbestos existing in the property report.
Lead, in plumbing or paint report.
Sewage disposal: condition of and efficiency report.
Heat-loss rating report.
These are for information for a new owner.
The first* needs to pass muster before sale.
Sewage good effluent quality will be mandatory next year. Heat loss and lead is info for buyer only, for now.

And the controle technique for the car is every 2 years and costs about £30 sterling. Well worth the money, IMO, it takes the mechanic an hour, he's got 10's of thousands of Euros worth of kit in his shop to pay for and I get a l-o-n-g list of everything checked out or needing attention.

I should add that, [ apart from tin-pot dictatorships, like Tonyland [joke] ], a general rule of law is that legislation can't be made retrospective to existing equipment, unless continued use poses a risk to third parties. Think about it. You may accept the risk of driving a veteran car without seat belts. But if your house or car could injure or kill someone due to non compliance with better safety legislation, that's a different kettle of fish. Therefore no-one can force old folks to insulate their houses better. An old 'banger' churning out pollution is harming someone's health, even if it's just poor Old Long Suffering Mother Earth. Best to scrap the thing and get a better, safer and more economical car.

Bend with the wind shipmates, or snap!

Alan

Alan,

If you've been following the news from B-Liar-land you'll know about the "Homeseller's Pack" which is supposed to be coming into force here soon, making sellers get various reports into a dossier before a sale. There was talk of an electrical PIR (Periodic Inspection Report) being part of the pack to accompany the new "Part P" rules, but that appears to have been shelved.

Frankly, I wish the government would butt out of what should be a private transaction. If I'm willing to buy a house without a structural survey, or without a heat-efficiency report, or without a detailed inch-by-inch check of every pipe in case it has lead solder, then why is that anyone's business but mine and the seller's? If I'm concerned about something, I can get a report from an expert, just as people have done up until now.

What if I were buying a place to renovate completely? Why on earth should we have to pay for a survey of plumbing, heating, wiring, etc. if they're all going to be ripped out and replaced anyway?

But logically, isn't somebody using more heating due to poorer insulation also creating more pollution, even though it may be at a power station miles away rather than at the point of consumption?

This is the same sort of "where do you draw the line?" issue that I've used to argue against the government mandating that we do things "for our own good." That's how we have compulsory motorcycle helmets, compulsory seatbelts, compulsory childseats, and in Australia & New Zealand they've even gone as far as making it a crime to ride a bicycle without a helmet. Each time the existing laws have been used a precedent. What's next? Compulsory asbestos-line suit of armor to walk down the street?

Same principle here: If we're going to start accepting laws which restrict a person's energy consumption because of the pollution, where do we stop? Ban all the Christmas light displays? Ban people from using their car for a non-essential pleasure trip? Ban us from using power on our computers to chat about these things?

Yay Alan,
All I need do is affix a notice to my front door, to the effect of:
Warning:This house is older than 1970, even knocking on the door could result in fatal injuries, you have been warned, run along now!.
That should keep the Jehovahs away.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 12-17-2006).]

Paul, I keep abreast of events in my homeland, often with profound dismay at he antics of the lunatics now running the asylum.
It is now actually illegal to break-wind in England, as you release a greenhouse gas into the atmosphere by so doing. The UK EPA, [not to be confused with the real US EPA, a body entirely devoted to public health and not wringing the last drop of happiness out of hapless denizens], is forming new Warden groups , the Find All Rearend Toxins Squads.
Soon, the boys from F.A.R.T.S. will police public places, like pubs, football stadiums and parks, armed with trained sniffer-dogs searching out those responsible for those 'silent but deadlies' we all know so well. 'Catalytic shorts' made of knitted platinised 2-ply are the new fashion accessory of the decade. Those wishing to release pent-up body-fog must go to special F.A.R.T.S. centres, where unwanted vapors can be processed into fuel to run enviromentally-friendly electric-generators to charge up the batteries in the cattle prods.

Ah! Brave New World!


Alan

More rules, paperwork and shyte that we don't need.

Bit like a practicing license and the EWRB a waste of my time and money.

Paul,

I've seen a few cases where a car that has just passed the MoT failed the Irish NCT (National Car Test) which is a little more rigerous and also seems to get more o.t.t. every year.

The annual car inspection here in NSW did get out of control a few years ago when cars were knocked back for trivial things like a bit of surface rust in the corner of the door. Surprisingly they woke up to it and now it's far more reasonable with checking things that really do count from a safety perspective.
Have a look at my 1926 Model T Ford to give an idea of what I'm talking about http://www.users.bigpond.com/cool386/geelong3.jpg
Looks like a wreck doesn't it? But it's safe to drive, so it passed rego check.
Now, as to the thought police inspecting the electrical system of my house and what I run off it, no thanks! Just as well as I've hoarded away a lifetime supply of incandescent bulbs...including some big 300 and 500W ones I use in my garage and roof.
And if I wish to use antiquated fittings I should be able to...it doesn't affect anyone outside of MY house. Funny how political correctness would be happy for me to have a split system air con, provided it met such and such energy star rating. Yet, if I don't have the air con but there's a few incadescent bulbs turned on (which add up to way less than 2.4KW) then I'm being bad to the environment! Apparently you can have as many appliances as you like running, provided they are politically correct...despite the fact that a lesser amount of older appliances and incandescent bulbs would use less.
I'm still wondering how the thought police are going to see that all homes have now been fitted with smoke alarms.

If a house W.O.F. can rectify problems such as rewireable fuses rewired with copper wire, 12V halogen light transformers covered in flammable insulation and all other sorts of dodgy practices that we see every day in houses, then I'm all for it.

This W.O.F. can only mean more work for Joe Sparky, and give him an incentive to do compliant work. That's all good isn't it ?

The extra cost to the home-owner should be subsidised by our Government who allowed the dodgy work to happen in the first place.

That probably won't happen though.

Typicaly here in the UK the goverment brings out new regulations then lets the industry police its self. We can not even get certification right for new building how on earth are they going to manage certificating old buildings.

Time is running out for uk buildings MoT

Some friends are selling their old 18C farm-house and building a new one on an adjacent plot. They requested the mandatory Energy Report for the sale, and duly the suave 'Monsieur X' arrived to do it, with Joe Muggins roped in as traducteur. He simply asked:-
Q. "Do you 'ave central heating?"
A. "Yes."
Then he measured all the room areas with a laser doohickey, noting window sizes, double glazing or not, and without checking or asking what insulation was fitted, he pronounced the house, and I quote "It is Grade E, as good as it gets in France". It took him less than 30 minutes and cost them 150 Euros = US $200. They never even saw the report, it went straight to the Notaire.
He also pontificated that a 'Grade A' house would be found, typically, in Scandinavia, Germany or Austria, where such a dwelling would be 32 degrees C warmer than the outside temperature with the heating turned off,[!], which of course, with all due respects to our undoubtedly technically advanced and civilised neighbors, is a load of old bolleaux.
IMHO, another E150 wasted on bloody parasites!

Alan

Yes an electrical W.O.F. for existing houses would have to be properly policed. I do share everyone elses opinion that this would never happen. Kenbo is right in saying that if we can't even get a system right for new buildings then we've got no chance of organising a decent system for existing buildings.

As usual our government & local councils will turn a good idea into an inefficient, corrupt, revenue grabber that achieves nothing.

I suppose its a big ask expecting government bodies to employ enough people qualified & experienced enough to judge wether a building is electrically safe or not.

The NCT seems to have one or two things which are silly.

From the manual, section 49, electrical: http://www.ncts.ie/nctmanual.pdf


If I want to wire a radio so that it works without the ignition switch being in either the run or accessory positions, how is that in any way a safety issue?

It's funny how from having absolutely no vehicle inspections at all just a few years ago Ireland has now adopted such a comprehensive test.

Mind you, the British MoT has plenty of quirks, e.g. despite the trivial items which can now constitute a failure, would you believe that the speedometer is not tested here, and in fact you can pass the test with it not working?

Can anyone remember motoring before the MOT? I can and the Test came none too soon. In 1953 I went by train to stay with an aunt in Lancashire for the summer. My cousins, George and Norman, ran a typical British 'banger' of the period, a two-tone [ that is, two colors of rust! ] pre-war Ford E93A. You could buy one just like it for a fiver. All 5 tyres were totally bald, [ which was legal ], but three of them were down to the cords flapping through the casings, and were not. Never mind! They did a DIY re-mold and painted them with tar my uncle borrowed from Preston gasworks. The transverse rear spring had snapped in two. George came up with the 'engineering solution' and they roped a scaffold plank across the rear axle instead! I know, because I bloody sat on it with the road going past in a blur under my bottom! "Just keep tha' feet up our Alan, thee'll be reet!" Off we went one Saturday to Morecombe Bay to do a bit of plaice fishing. The old side-valve bravely labored on, blowing oily smoke into the car through the rotten and ventilated floor and bulkhead, from a thousand holes in the exhaust and what remained of the muffler. Not to worry! We kept the windows open, and it all blew out again! The gearbox was full of sawdust, of course, and the diff. stuffed with a pair of nylon stockings. George did the driving - he worked for t' Ribble Bus Corporation and it took real skill to manoever a car with no brakes and 8" of play in the steering. At one point we were attempting a curve when we came upon a queue of cars and bikes halted at a ford, [ the tide was coming in]. George had no option; he couldn't stop anyway, so we roared into the foot deep water and out the other side, our giant bow-wave saturating half a dozen plebs by the wayside, our gesticulating fingers insultingly waving a cheery farewell. We caught a couple of galvanised buckets full of plaice then motored home that evening singing "Roll out the Barrel" and "I'll Take You Home Again, Kathleen", to the accompanyment of the big-ends as they attempted to saw the crank in half. There were no freezers or fridges in Kingfisher Street then, so my Aunty Lil kept the fattest fish for us and gave the rest to the neighbors.

Alan

Paul,

The NCT in Ireland was implemented to rapidly bring things up to standard. There was no point in bringing in a half-baked test.

It's carried out in independent test centres, not by your garage. You have to make an appointment and report to your nearest NCT centre to have your car put through its paces. It seems fair enough and works quite well.

Don't understand that quirk with the electrical fitting either though! very odd..

Great story Alan, I'm still wiping away the tears. Try carrying out those kind of repairs on a Mazda !

Luckily in those days the maximum speed one of those old bangers would do was 30 mph.

And because the EU ordered that all member countries must have a vehicle inspection.

I couldn't agree more.
I haven't read a story like that in ages.
Thanks Alan!.

Judging by the look of some of the farm vehicles around here, I reckon riding in them is pretty similar to Alan's story!

Might just as well not bother checking any of the lights during the MoT, since nobody can see them under six inches of mud and other assorted farmyard muck.

Paul,
I visted the Chatham Islands some years back to see relatives and I can tell you, you haven't seen a vehicle until you've been there.
Things like seat-belts, mufflers and even doors seem to not exist at all.
It was a culture shock!.