Guys,
Since the 'B' Phase colour here has been changed from Yellow to White (in accordance with International convention, so I'm told), are you still allowed to use Yellow as a Phase colouring, if you have white control wires inside the same enclosure?.
These are all conduit wires, not cables in this enclosure.
Or has the ability to use yellow gone with any new stuff?.
Your opinions please?.

Hi Trumpy,

just curious about what "International" means in a down under context?

In Europe white is obsolete.
Except for switch panel wiring where it is often used for the earthed (mostly negative) side of 24 VDC control voltage

In North America white is the "grounded conductor".

Here in Germany the way of replacing colour codes has more or less been done in a way that
1. a new colour code was defined
2. a new colour was produced and sold
3. electricians had a period of some months to years to end up the "old" material they stored
4. the new code became mandatory

But no idea about Australasia (probably except for Tahiti and New Caledonia). Only a certain curiosity which is the reason why I'm reading here.

In South Africa the colours are (or at least were whhen I left 6 years ago) Red-Whit-Blue. The White would fade in the sun and become yellow. Here in the UK (before we moved to the mad colours of now), the Yellow would fade and look like dirty white. Looks like a no-win situation!

However, that is off the subject! The rule I remember was each and every wire in a cabinet must be definable by its colour as to its use e.g. all white wires were control, all red were power, etc. If you take this across to your situation I believe, seeing as white is already defined as control, yellow should continue as your phase colour.

But please don't take this as law (simply because my experience is law diametrically opposes common sense!).

M.

I'm not sure what international convention that would be.

In the U.K. red/white/blue was the standard up until 1964, as which point B-phase changed to yellow, which is what it is today (until the old colors are fully displaced in a few months by "that" color code).

So far as I'm aware, RYB (or RWB) has only ever really been a standard in British/Commonwealth countries, or those so influenced.

And "A,B,C" phase will be displaced by L1 thru L3 ?
I suppose so, as we lost our R S T Mp SL long ago.

I lament the loss of our old Yellow ( B ) phase too Trumpy. Can anyone in our part of the world explain why we had to do this ?

I remember the old Continental RST, but what is Mp and SL? Neutral and ground?

Mittelpunkt und Schutzleiter?

Yup, you're both right. Mp is the center point conductor (center point = star point), Schutzleiter simply means protectiion conductor = PE.
Something real funny about German terminology though... "Schutzerde" used to be a real common term for PE. Nowadays German sparkies (and our Austrian teacher s as well) insist on the use of "PE" or "Schutzleiter" because in their opinion the old term isn't correct - it's referring to earth and in a TN-C-S system the PE isn't necessarily locally grounded so they want to avoid confusion by only using the term PE... whcih unfortunately stands for Protective Earth, meaning _word by word_ exactly the same as the German "Schutzerde"... those harmonization preachers don't seem to notice that!

Mittelpunktsleiter or "center point conductor" was also used for DC in a way American 2 phase systems are wired. So it does not mean Star point in every case. It could be a center tap of one lonely coil also.

Sorry,
My original statement that the White Colour came about because of International Standards was wrong.
This came about because we changed to AS/NZS 3000 and this Standard alone (from the NZ end) called for the change in colours.
If anyone can actually explain why we changed to this colour, please go ahead!.
I've been through all sorts of Standards and I have square eyes.
But bugger me I can't find a single reference to the change.
Any of our Aussie members like to comment?.

According to AS3000 you can still use yellow as one of the phases (only in NZ) until the next addition of the wiring rules comes out. You will then not be able to use either a yellow or green conductor excepting a green yellow for earth only as is the case for Australia at present.I am thinking they are allowing NZ to use up all the old yellow cable they have in stock.I have only seen yellow used as an active in old installs here. All is explained in AS/NZ 3000 2000 edition. section 3.8 I am assuming this is so you cant get an earth mixed up with an active as some earths have only 30% green tracing on yellow and when older can fade.

The minimum of 70/30 proportions of green/yellow for earths is supposed to apply here as well, but I've a number in recent years which are really nothing more than yellow with a thin green stripe, much less than 30%. If the sleeving or conductor is turned with the stripe away from you, it can look just like a phase-B conductor at first glance.

Same here, though usually there are several thin green stripes. I've also seen 50/50 wires that are half yellow and half green... and prior to standardization yellow was quite commonly used as a phase here (one old color code was yellow-green-purple for phases with grey neutral and red ground)...

Just wanted to say to Mash,
Welcome to the Mad-house, mate!.
Great to have you along.

Madhouse? You speak for yourself Mike.....

In The Netherlands was pre 1977 ? The following colours applied

Green phase
Red neutral
Grey earth
Black phase switched to a light

then the new standard colours were applied

Brown phase
L. blue neutral
Grn/Yel earth
Black phase switched to a light

The system is non MEN with a separate earth which is used in quite a few countries in Europe. Also the non polarised plugs are used and the neutral is switched as well.

Ireland:

Old system:
PE: Yellow/Green N: Blue, L1 Brown ( L2 Red, L3 Yellow )

Implementation of new codes:

The new European harmonised core colour code for multi-core cables will be mandatory in new electrical installations certified on and from 1st April 2006.
Before that date, wiring in new installations, including extensions, may use either the existing colour code or the new harmonised colour code.
The new three- phase core colours are brown, black and grey, with blue for neutral and green/yellow for the earth/protective conductor.

The following limitations apply:

Green/yellow cores shall be used only as protective conductors and shall not be converted e.g. by sleeving for use as neutral or line/phase conductors.
Blue cores shall be used only as neutral conductors and shall not be converted e.g. by sleeving for use as protective conductors or line/phase conductors.
Brown, black or grey cores shall be used only as line/ phase conductors, and shall not be converted e.g. by sleeving for use either as protective conductors or as neutral conductors.
Where more than one conductor in a multi-core cable is fed from the same phase, both shall be identified by the relevant phase colour, using sleeving as needed.
For single-core cables used for three-phase circuits, the core colours shall be the same as for multi-core cables.
Where single-core cables are used to supply single-phase circuits fed from a three-phase distribution board, the respective line/phase conductor colour may be extended to the single-phase circuits fed from that phase.
Sleeving or tape used for identification purposes shall be permanent, heat resistant, colour-fast, non-conductive, and shall comply with EN 60454 or other appropriate standard.
Four-core cable without a blue core e.g. NYM-J shall be used only for circuits with balanced three-phase loads e.g. three-phase motors.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 12-12-2005).]

Dave,
The part about leaving the Earth wire as an Earth wire I can understand.
However, what's wrong with re-identifying a Neutral as an Earth wire?.
Hypothetical example:
If you have a flex that feeds a 3-phase Delta wired motor and it has 4 cores in the flex, I really don't see why it couldn't be re-sleeved.

So basically under the current Irish rules the only re-identification of cores allowed is to change one phase color to another phase color then?


Isn't there any exception to that for switch loops, or are you going to have to carry stocks of 2xBrown for switch wiring?


By the way. newcomers to ECN might not have found this old thread yet in which we had a long discussion about various national color codes:

International Wire Colour Codes


A summary of the main points can be found here:

International Color Codes - 1st draft



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-13-2005).]

They're a bit tight but those are the rules.

According to all codes I know, Yellow-green must not be reidentified any other color (except for PEN conductors getting a small blue tag at each end) and no other color may be reidentified yellow-green. Period. Blue can be a phase if there is no neutral present, if there is a neutral it has to be blue and the only blue conductor.

Given the mish-mash of schemes we now have in operation, plus the confusion surrounding the changeover to the new system here which has already led to cross-connections, I think the only safe approach now is to assume that any color might have been used for any purpose.

By the way, does anybody know which was the first country to adopt blue (*) as a national standard for neutral? Was it even in use as such before the pan-European standards committees decided to go with it?

(*) Light blue officially, a point which some cable manufacturers seem to have forgotten.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-15-2005).]

Pauluk, I'd also like to know which country started the green/yellow earth caze ? Isn't it just easier to have a green earth colour ?

The blue neutral hasn't been adopted in Australia / New Zealand yet ( except for imported appliance cords )

Paul,
I agree mate, it's become a real disaster as far as management goes, considering that we have a whole range of systems of identification, none of them really co-ordinated, it's just a good thing that people like ourselves know to be able to trace circuits and know what the colours could mean.
We haven't been hit here by the new colours here yet, but you can bet it's in the pipe-line.
Kiwi,
I have an idea that the Green/Yellow Earth wire started in the UK.
(If I'm wrong, no doubt I'll be corrected)
Reason I say that is because appliances in the UK were/are sold without a plug fitted.
Red/Green and Red/Black colour blindness is the most common.

I was always under the impression that green/yellow was adopted into the U.K. regs. originally because it was already in use in Continental Europe, so I don't think it was us. It started out here as just a permissible alternative to the standard plain green.

The original 13th edition IEE Regs. specify only green. The earliest reference I can find to green/yellow is in my ASEE guide which is for the 13th edition as amended to December 1963:


Note that this permits green/yellow for flex only, not for fixed wiring.

This is carried on into the 14th edition of the Regs in 1966. Table B.4, specifies green as the only acceptable color for fixed cables, but under the column for flex states:


As I understand it, several Continental countries had already adopted green/yellow exclusively for earth by this time, throughout their systems.

To continue, the 1970 amendments to the 14th edition introduced European colors for appliance cords here with their blue neutrals, and provided for the phasing out of the traditional system. Table B.4 is amended accordingly. It's easier to reproduce the table than to try to explain:



In case the note referenced by the dagger is illegible on your monitor, it says:


That last part is worth comparing with the 1963 quote above which clearly permits green/yellow to be used in conjunction with red and black.

Although red, black, green -OR- brown. blue. green/yellow in later years were the norm, I have actually come across one or two cords which did have red. black, green/yellow, although they're pretty rare.

Note that the 1970 amendments now also permitted green/yellow for earth on fixed wiring as well, although in my experience most installations from the early 1970s still just used plain green.

By the 15th edition 1981, plain green had been removed as an acceptable earth color entirely. I don't have the appropriate amendment to hand, but I believe that it was an amendment sometime around 1977 which then mandated green/yellow for fixed wiring as well.

And that is how it then remained until the latest round of changes from 2004 onward.


So to summarize the U.K. changes::

1963 Green/yellow permitted as an alternative in flex only (green still preferred)

1970 Green/yellow permitted as an laternative to green in fixed wiring. Flex may now be traditional red. black, green, or European brown, blue, green/yellow.

1971 All flex must now be European brown. blue, green/yellow.

~1977 Plain green no longer permitted for fixed wiring.

2004 Brown and blue permitted as alternative to red and black for fixed wiring.

2006 All fixed wiring to use European colors.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-18-2005).]

When the colours changed for flexible cords here in the late 70's the earth conductor was still solid green in the 3 core flex I was using, even though live and neutral were now brown and blue. I seem to remember it remained thus for a few years.

Austria and Germany didn't change from red ground to yellow/green until at least 1967, Austria maybe even later. I think yellow/green was chosen because it has never been used for anything else before. The only other striped conductor I've ever heard of is the old Swiss red/yellow ground, which changed to yellow/green pretty early (I think 1950ies or early 60ies).
Until today black/grey/red cables are found not that seldom here, but we don't even learn the old colors at school any more. At least tow class mates asked me whether I had any idea what the red and grey wires at home could be...