This came as a call from a nearby house earlier today: Could I take a look urgently please?

The new cooker had come from a well-known electrical chain store which offered delivery, installation, and removal/disposal of the old unit as part of the deal.

It seems that the crew turned up with the new unit and then refused to install it. The message I got at first was a little garbled, something about "C earthing" and a change to the regulations.

Anyway, when I got there the handwritten message on the delivery note said that they would not install it as there was no RCCD (sic) on the cooker circuit. It then went on to say that they were unable to remove the old cooker as there was no "spur unit" on the wall.

The plate on the wall just took the cable into the box and out through a plate, so it's fair enough that they wouldn't disconnect and leave a bare-ended cable. Why the refusal to connect though?

The main service gear looks to be the original 1960s equipment from when the house was built: MEM 4-way box with rewireable fuses plus a Crabtree E50 voltage-operated ELCB with TT earthing.
The ELCB is obsolete, of course, but there are still hundreds in use around here. Everything checked out fine, breaker working perfectly, 30A circuit to cooker point all O.K., etc., so in went the new cooker.

During the ensuing chat, it emerged that head of the crew had said that they couldn't install because of "new regulations which came into force in January."

So is this a complete misinterpretation of Part P, or is somebody trying to use it as an excuse?

(For those outside the U.K., let me point out that the current version of BS7671/IEE Regs. doesn't actually require an RCD on cookers anyway!)

Paul,

Not sure if this is a parallel or not, but the local chain stores here have been refusing to disconnect and reconnect hardwired appliances for some years now.

This is probably a liability issue, as the delivery personnel are not licensed (and may not be knowledgable enough) to do this work. This is also an excuse not to take the old appliance away with them which has been the usual custom.

They now request a Receptacle be there and they will have a Cord & Plug on the appliance when delivered.

Bill

Paul, I had something similar from the Gas company regarding a new boiler in a friend's house, the guy refused to connect it because "the main earthing isn't adequate and it's not RCD protected".

It was RCD protected, by the RCD controlling that section of the consumer unit, and 10mm sq earthing was fine for the 60amp service. I think they have just been told 'don't make us liable, make excuses'

Paul,
I'm with Bill on this one.
Stores here that "install" new appliances either have an Electrician on thier staff, or they stipulate that a pre-existing socket be installed.
It's come to that over here too, with disposal fees getting higher all the time, most "installers" would just plug the new appliance in, hand you the invoice for it and RUN!!.
However, the use of an RCD on a cooker is exempted over here, because of the leakage currents caused by dampness in the appliance upsetting the RCD.
Fridges and freezers are the same.

I suspected the liability issue. Maybe the company's legal department has said that to play it safe they shouldn't connect unless there's an RCD (GFI) present, although as this exceeds even the current requirements of BS7671, it seem over-protective. Maybe if it wasn't that, they'd have come up with some other excuse.

Anyway, by the time I left the lady was already on the phone to the company demanding that they now come back and take away the old cooker as agreed (and from the language being used, I use the term "lady" in a very broad sense!).

Bill,


Do they ask whether it needs to be delivered with a 3- or a 4-wire cord?

Paul, in NZ, the days of the Tradesman taking his rubbish away with him and the Customer providing tea & scones at morning tea, are over.

I'm surprised that Appliance Stores in the UK still deliver & connect appliances for free.

Do range circuits in the UK have to be protected by RCCB ?

As Trumpy mentioned, here in NZ, ranges don't have to be protected by an RCCB. Same for water heaters and fridges. I think this is wrong as these appliances pose significant risk of electric shock. And if they are functioning properly, they shouldn't trip an RCCB.

" In an ideal world " : Electrical appliances would be delivered and installed by a licensed electrician.

Here all circuits are on a 300mA RCD but here we all have a TT system.


[This message has been edited by Belgian (edited 07-28-2005).]

Took delivery just yesterday of a new refrigerator, which we bought at a little electrical store in the next village. His price matched the superstore 20 miles away. Delivered by the owner, free, within one hour of buying it. He carried it in, with a bit of help from be, unpacked it, put all the shelves in, set up the egg box, plugged it in, explained the control, temp indicator and defrost functions, & took all the packaging away. He offered to take the old fridge away too, (for free), but I already collared it for the shop as a 2-pot glue store, (it still works). 4 years ago, the same guy delivered a new washing machine, and plumbed it in for free too!
To get rid of an old fridge here, you take it to the decheterie where it's segregated for dismantling by specialists, to extract any CF refrigerant (greenhouse gas). Other RWs are stuff like metals, oils, paint, car batteries, hard building rubble, card and paper, wood, and organic garden wastes. There's no dust cart, (towns do have them but it costs more). We pay about $70 a year for the decheterie service, and can take literally anything recycleable there, putting the non-recyclables in our village bin for collection and disposal. It's amazing how little goes in that bin- we recycle practically everything except meat products, contaminated packaging and Bounty wipes, houshold crud from the vacuum cleaner etc. Oh, and our guys make compost from any vegetative waste and when it's ready, it's free, on a help yourself basis.

Alan

Paul,
Like "We're not installing that stove, it's colour clashes with everything in here".
kiwi,
How do you get a shock from a fridge?.
{Apart from when you open it and it's empty.}
The handles and inside of most of the fridges I've worked on are plastic.
I agree about water heaters though, it seems strange however, that you are required to install an RCD protected circuit for the ignitor circuit of a Gas Water heater.


{Just a little Off-Topic comment about moving fridges and freezers.
It doesn't pay to plug a fridge straight in after it has been moved any appreciable distance or has been laid down.
It's best to leave the appliance in it's usual operating position for about 5 minutes before powering it up.
This will ensure that the oil in the compressor has sunk back down into the sump.
Getting large amounts of oil mixed in with the Refrigerant will seriously shorten the life of the appliance.}

Been doing quite a bit of fridge/freezer installs here and the instructions stated 12 hours if the larder fridge had been laid on its back for transport or 4 hours if it had been just shook around. Probably overkill but that's whats in the manual.

I'm never going to move again - ever!!!!

Paul,

That is a really good question. I haven't been out in the field in a few years, but at that time the local stores were telling customers they needed a 4 wire plug (and receptacle) - even if they only had a 3-wire cable!

I hope that they've wised up by now.

Bill

No one will install anything anymore over here. We had a washing machine delivered by Miele recently, they simply put it into the utility room and left it there as is in a crate for us to unpack and install.

Likewise for a cooker delivery, it just got left on the kitchen floor.

No one will take old appliances away without charging a heafty fee anyway as the disposal costs are pretty steep. They have to be returned to a materials recovery centre for safe recycling.

As for hooking up a cooker, didn't think an RCD was generally required on a cooker circuit in the UK ?

Over here you usually have a cable coming from a 45A double pole isolating switch near by and out via a plate, or more commonly, simply an uncovered box behind the cooker. It's then wired into the back of it.

Cooker termination units are a relatively new concept.

Nope, there's no requirement for an RCD on a range/cooker circuit at all, nor on water heaters, fixed space heaters, or any other large appliance.

BS7671 doesn't even specify an RCD for all socket outlets, only those which might reasonably be expected to be used to supply equipment used outdoors.


Pretty much the same here, although on older systems the "cooker control unit" with an integral 13A socket is more the norm.
Some of the skimpy installs don't even have a box behind the range, they just bring the cable out through the wall and plaster around it!


Haven't there been posts here about people changing a factory-fitted 3-wire cord for a 4-wire one but leaving the bonding strap in place as well? At least this is one problem we don't have here.

By the way, there would nothing against installing a suitable plug and receptacle combination for a range here -- it would probably have to be one the CEE (pin & sleeve) types -- but I don't think I've ever seen it done on domestic systems. Hardwire was and still is the norm.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-28-2005).]

Paul,

Yes, I've initiated some of these myself. In some cases the documentation that came with the appliance was really lacking clarity on what to do about it too.

In my area hardwired Ranges and Dryers have been the norm up until recently.

Bill

Ah yes.... I remember now. Somebody (was it you?) scanned the instructions which came with a range or dryer, and they were very misleading, or at least not very clear.

Natal, South Africa had these in all houses as it was traditional there to take the stove with you when you moved. Stoves however weren't sold with a lead so the install comprised making one from the individual components then plugging it in.

In the Transvaal, the law was different and the house *had* to be sold/rented with a stove in situ. There all the stoves were hardwired to the wall - often utilising the minimalist technique descibed above by Paul.


[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 07-30-2005).]

Thank God there is a thread like this here at the moment.
Next week, my sister is having her kitchen ripped out and a new one installed.
I said, seems I'm on holiday, I'll come down and do the Electrical part of the job.
Now, currently she has a free-standing range, fed by a 32A MCB, but what she want's put in is different.
She want's a Zanussi (sp?) cook-top and a Westinghouse Wall-oven.
Niether of which have the stated current draw on the Installation sheets that come with the appliances.
I'd sort of like to know how to feed these and how to fuse them??.
It's been a wee while since I did Domestic work.

{Sorry about the Thread-jack Paul}

If the person buying is happy to accept the place without a stove, why should it be anybody else's business? That's a good example of yet another petty, freedom-reducing law, in my opinion.

I wonder how this could apply to the sale of a part-built house which isn't finished off?


That's a situation which is becoming quite common here as people refurbish kitchens and replace an all-in-one range with separate units.

The cooktop generally has to be wired directly to the 30A cooker circuit to allow for the the potential load (could be 6kW or so with all rings on full).

The separate ovens (if the single type) are generally rated much lower, maybe 1500 or 2000W. Many of them here are supplied with a 3-core 1.5 mm butyl rubber flex ready for connection.

Unfortunately, the most common DIY form of connection seems to be to just shove the 1.5 flex from the oven into the same terminals as the cooktop. If tapped from the existing cooker circuit, a fused spur unit is really called for (although I don;t think you have them in NZ, do you?).

Ovens are sometimes run on a 13A fused spur from the kitchen ring (not applicable in NZ either!), although I'd be very careful about how much load is already likely to be present.

Given a new install or a major refit where everything is accessible, my preference would be to run a dedicated 16A circuit for the oven.

Paul said...
At the risk of going off topic Paul, that law was probably the least "freedom-reducing" one on the statutes of that country at the time!

I have no idea of its origin but the Transvaal and Free State carried over much from the Dutch way of things and Natal from the British.

I'm sure I've mentioned it before, but it may be of interest that RSA stoves were capable of being wired up to 3 phase wye though I never saw one thus wired. They came supplied with a busbar connecting the three loads - usually two hotplates each on two phases and the oven, grill and ancillaries on the third.


[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 07-30-2005).]

Trumpy, you mentioned that your sisters' oven and cook-top were supplied with incorrect information on the Installation Sheets regarding max load current. Did these sheets overstate or understate the current ?

I am curious about this as I have recently seen wall ovens which are not marked with max load current or a kilowatt rating on the appliance itself. This information is only available on the installation sheets.

The appliance standard ( AS3100 ) states that all appliances shall be indelibly marked in a position adjacent to the cord entry or supply terminals, with the power consumption details ( current or kW ).

It would appear that the importers are ignoring the standards.

I wouldn't be the first to suggest that electrical importers be licensed so that they may be held accountable for the safety of the products they peddle.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that:

Right now Joe Sparky is saddled with the liability of non-compliant products that he installs. The importer who he bought the product from is not.

Also that: enquiries by the Ministry of Commerce into non-compliant products are only initiated in accident cases where the product has caused injury or serious monetary loss to its owner.

This can't be right can it ?

As for your oven and cook-top Trumpy, you can feed a 16A outlet ( for the oven ) and a 32A outlet ( for the cooktop ) with your 32A circuit. You are only required to protect the cable to the outlet. Not the outlet itself.

Is this right ?

There are quite a few units like that on the British market these days, obviously intended for 3-ph operation in Continental Europe.

Some of the older British models were supplied in an export version too. There were four terminal positions on the chassis, but the U.K. version had a terminal fitted only to the L1 and N positions.

These are the ones where each circuit comes back to the terminal block with 1/4-inch connectors, so the export version would have been a simple matter of fitting extra terminals in the L2 and L3 positions and connecting the lugs to distribute the load appropriately.




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-31-2005).]

Standards aside, that's just bad in my opinion. Documentation gets lost over the years, but we still need to know an important fact such as this.

We have the cooker requirement here too, be it a gas range, electric range or wood stove. Probably even a plug connected 2300W hot plate would be enough. Just any means of cooking.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but within the EU there is a very definite requirement that all appliances sold are marked with a plate that contains information about the voltage and maximum consumption in Watts (not the current draw in amps)

This is often INSIDE the appliance!

i.e. on ovens, it's commonly written inside the main oven door, either beside the seal or under the glass.

On washing machines, dryers and dishwashers it's also often printed inside the door of the appliance.

Not sure why this is now the norm rather than putting it on the back near the cable entry.

Paul,
Thanks very much for the advice!.
One saving grace I suppose is the fact that the switch-board is in the same wall as where the oven and cooktop will be installed.
I checked out the Oven and Cooktop and there is no ratings on it apart from the normal 220-250VAC markings, oh and the usual LNE terminal markings.
The installation instructions are just as next to useless, as they only state the dimensions that a builder would need to fit the things and they have been translated into English from some other language, rather poorly.
The only mention of Electrical parameters is this:
So much for the translation!.
The kitchen gets installed on Wednesday, so I'm going to go with 2 dedicated circuits.
A 32A circuit for the cooktop wired in 6mm2 and a 20A circuit wired in 2.5mm2, both having thier own isolators.

Yep, seen it there on a lot of the new ovens.

I've even seen a sticker next to it which says "Caution: Oven gets hot during use."

Paul,
Yes, I was expecting to see something like that on the inside of the oven door or near the cable inlet or anywhere else on the appliance.
I turned the thing upside-down and over and over, but B*gger me, I couldn't find a darn thing, all I found was Made in Spain.
I'd be interested to know if any other Electricians have ever copped this rubbish before?.
Free market?, don't make me laugh!.

Trumpy, the ovens I mentioned also displayed the Voltage requirements. But not the power consumption. The power consumption was only detailed in the manual.

What I can't decide is:

Do we lodge a complaint when we find things like this and advise customers to purchase compliant electrical products. Or do we turn a blind eye and let the market decide.

In NZ we have enjoyed electrical products which complied with AS NZS & European Standards up to now. But recently we have allowed the importation of cheaper "almost compliant" products.

How does the UK enforce the standards ?

What do you guys do when you discover a non compliant product ?

Ah... That probably explains it!

Senor, what for we need no steenkin' labels? The oven, she work just fine without them, no?


What would I do faced with such a situation?

First I'd grumble about the company not providing simple technical specifications which we need to run a circuit for the appliance (while at the same time -- as Alan pointed out -- they no doubt supply 20 volumes of standards booklets and other junk).

Then I'd probably try to find the power rating in all that documentation.

If that didn't work and we really needed to get the appliance in and working, I'd probably take the pragmatic approach and do a temporary hookup so that I could actually measure the current.

Never get a Dago buy!

(Sorry! )
Alan

Kiwi,

The European Union has a harmonised CE mark for electrical appliances thesedays. Any appliance sold in the EU has to comply with all of the harmonised regulations and display that CE "Conformite Europeene" mark.

Selling an appliance without it is an offence. You'd also leave yourself, as a retailer / distributor, open to pretty massive legal costs should anyone be injured by an appliance that doesn't conform.

CE doesn't just apply to electrical appliances it's a safety / standards conformity mark that applies to a whole range of goods.

From a website advising US exporters of EU regs:

The European Commission refers to the CE Marking of products as a "passport" which can allow a manufacturer to freely circulate their products within the European marketplace. The marking applies only to products regulated by the European Commissions health, safety and environmental protection legislation (product directives) but this is estimated to include more than 50% of the goods currently exported from the U.S. to Europe. All other consumer products are subject to the requirements of the General Product Safety Directive 92/59/EC, which does not require the CE-mark.

Oh yeah, "The Great CE Mark Fiasco," as a couple of writers at the time it was introduced called it.

Germany stated that they would not accept it and would still require everything to be certified to their own VDE standards while I think it was either Spain or Italy which said they didn't intend to enforce the regulations at all.

The United States of Europe.
Bah! Humbug! - ever hear of the Tower of Babel? They've got one in Strasbourg!

(Good book the Bible, always got the answers.)

Alan

To be fair, it's pretty rigerously enforced in most places.

The penalties for abusing it here are pretty enormous.


There's an example of a pan-european sales ban notice:

Reference No. 99-15/SE
Date of Notification: 27 July 1999
Identification of Equipment: Power Inverter/DC/AC Inverter Type PDA 150
Manufactured By: Chinfa Electronics Ltd, Taiwan
Imported By: Jula, Postorder AB, PO Box 532-24 SKARA, Sweden
A sales ban was implemented due to the failure to meet the protection requirements in Article 7(1) of the EMC Directive due to a deviation from Standard EN 55014 exceeding the standard limits on several frequencies.

The level of penalty varies from place to place. The fines are relatively small in Britain for example (in the thousands of euro) where as in Germany they're in the tens of thousands. Ireland operates a system of unlimited fines.. some scandinavian countries may base the fine on a % of the company's income.. etc etc

It's not exactly uniform and you will get kicked into touch far more severely in some countries when compared to others.



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-03-2005).]

Guys,
I was under the impression that a name like Zanussi, would mean Italian style.
And it is a very nice looking cook-top, but it has lost it's shine in all this.
What's more annoying is the fact that full price was paid for this bit of kit.
I've contacted the importer for more information, I'm not holding my breath though.
kiwi,
Sure you can, but who will listen?.
The fact of the matter is, the customer has already bought the said gear and want's it installed, end of story, if you won't, they'll get someone who will.
It's a PITA the way the customer can just circumvent any Regulations like this, meanwhile we can't.
Nice isn't it, a true double Standard.
I think the Importers have a lot to answer for. GRRR

DJK, you mentioned that selling an appliance without the CE mark in the UK is an offence. Who polices this and to what extent?

Standard conformity marking is mandatory in NZ too. But unless there is an accident inolving injury or loss of significant property then importers aren't investigated.

We use the CE mark here and an AS/NZS mark which is a harmonised acceditation between Australia and NZ

kiwi,
What does that mark look like?.
I've never seen one.

I would:

A: Naievly install it, assuming it has similar specs as similar sized properly labelled units.

B: Say no, until acceptable documentation can be produced.

Good point Trumpy. Declared Articles like fuses & circuit-breakers are all stamped with the CE mark ( as in DJKs picture ), and sometimes the number of the standard that it is tested to.

My own research suggests that electrical accessories tested to AS/NZS standards should be marked with its appropriate standard number. They're not though are they ?

The CE system basically allows manufacturers to make a declaration of conformity to european standards covered under the scheme. Most, will do this by having the product tested by recognised testing agency and then applying the label. However, they can declare it conforms. The issue is how it's policed. Within the EU (And the other countries that use the scheme e.g. Switzerland) random testing and severe penalties apply for faking a CE declartion of conformity. However, if the product is marked CE and sold outside of the EU (or EEA, which includes countries that cooperate closely with the EU .. Switzerland, Norway etc)... there is no reason why the CE mark would mean anything as there's no one to police it.

So, unless Australia and NZ are officially part of the CE system and actively policing it the CE mark on an appliance exported to there and not intended for sale in the EU is meaningless.

Typically on appliances here you will still see CE and one of the testing agencies / national standards agencies.

E.g. our hob has CE and NF (French standards)

our washing machine has CE and DVE (Germany)

I thought that this was the Australian Electrical Conformity mark:



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 08-06-2005).]

Dave,
As far as I'm aware, that mark is the C-Tick, which is used over in this part of the world to signify EMC Compliance for things like Cordless Phones and other things that may cause emissions of RF Interference.