im in the process of renovating a chip shop. im not actually doing the electrics at the moment but i am about to take the job on if it comes to it. The electrician on the job has put both a lighting circuit and a power/socket circuit in the same 32Amp MCB. ive have told him that is wrong and dangerous - but he persists that it is correct. Can anybody verify my opinion? If I am correct, which I am sure I am, what is my next step? shall i take the job and change the problem? Shall I notify the NEC as this electrician is supposed to be a tester and issue certificates? Or should I leave him to it which is a danger to those using the appliances? I would like alot of feedback please because I will be using these replies in a site meeting to try and correct the problem.

Thanks
Adam

Hi Adam,
Welcome to ECN!,
Boy is that guy gonna come back down to earth with a thud!!.
I'm assuming that this is a Ring circuit that you are referring to, for the power sockets?.

Hi Adam,



I assume we're talking about a regular lighting circuit wired in 1.0 or 1.5 sq. mm cable? If so, then connecting that to a 32A MCB is most definitely wrong, no question about it.

yes trumpy, this is or the ring circuit for the power sockets, it is in the same breaker as a lighting circuit.
Yes Pauluk the lighting circuit is wired with 1.0sq mm cable and the ring ciruit is wired with 2.5sq mm cable - this is correct.
but with the lighting circuit being on a 32A MCB this is definatly wrong, but he still tells me that you can put BOTH a RING CIRCUIT and a LIGHTING circuit on the SAME breaker!! Back me up people.

up n coming sparky.

with well over 20 years in this trade in england,

i have NEVER heard such utter rubbish!!!!

in no instance should a lighting circuit (domestic in 1.00mm TW/E) be placed on the same circuit as a ring main and be protected? by a 32 MCB.

point that man in our direction and we will tell him!!

or even better contact the NICEIC on 0800 013 0900 or www.niceic.org.uk!!!

they will put him right.

another question, to all of us out there,

how can that `electrician` sign off that job correctly?

Britspark

my point exactly, he says the work is all correct and he is going to issue a certificate for the work

Ask him to tell you the current ratings for 1.0 T&E cable, even in free air.

Then ask him if he still believes it's O.K. to "protect" it with a 32A MCB.

should i report him for being so dangerous?

i thought this guy was a bit strange wen i first met him - he is travelling from nottingham to gainsborough to do this work because he cant get any work round there - is this a coincidence? he said he is having to take on a site job to get more money and never turns up to our job wen he says he would. and when he does come he never really has anything to show for it, nothing is really done. there are switches that dont do anything and a fused spur that is perminently live.

If he's NICEIC registered, then I'm sure they'd like to know about this.

Have you made the shop's owner aware of your concerns too?

we have told the shop owner time and time again that the work he is doing correct, but as he persists thats its ok she says it must be ok. ive told him over and over that the work is wrong and it needs to be changed but he isnt going to do it as he thinks its up to standard. i also work with one of the best electricains in the country that has been in the trade since the 60's, and even back then he was bringing in over £1000 a week, who says it is dangerous. but the man is so high strung he wont come and change the mistakes he has done.

another thing to do is bring the HSE and let them have alook,

also your local councils environmetle health service should have the relevant electrical engineer to talk to as well.

this is a very very worrying installation, i am of the opinion that this `electricain` is not that well qualified, but that is just my opinion.

Britspark

can you get any photos???

if you can post em on here.

the environmental health have been round 2ce, the first time only the elctricain was there and he reported back to us that they said the work was ok, but the second time my business partner was there and they have told him that the work is not correct and needs changing. my concern is that the work needs doing and the owner of the shop is not going to get permission to open the shop. she is believing him over us and thinks that once he says the work is done she is going to open the shop ASAP but we know this is not going to happen. but if he issues a certificate for the work - can she open the shop by just producing this cert and doesnt need the work double checking? if so the wiring is still going to be dangerous.

Part P only applies to domestic premises, so your 'electrician' could escape the registration route/building control certification. If the 'chippie' also has accomodation and the circuit could be interpreted as part domestic, he's only wired one circuit,(albeit at 32A!!), and therefore again Part P doesn't apply! Since the consensus here is that at least 2 circuits are required, all you need do is ask your local Building Control Officer to make a site visit. I'm pretty sure if you also mention the words Income Tax Inspector near your so-called 'electrician', he will turn into a magician and vanish into thin air!
Alan

Adam,
I'd imagine the shop owners Insurance company would have something to say about this.
If that place catches fire because of that circuit, there could be a few people "in the gun".
I'd agree with Britspark, photographic evidence would be a good idea.
Oh and by the way, I reckon that this guy is some sort of a "fly-by-nighter"!.
No-one in thier right mind would protect a 1.0mm cable in that manner, you might as well just hook it straight up to the main switch.

the chippy is part of a domestic home with living facilities above it. cheers fella's this is the kind of feedback i need for the meeting - keep em comin in!

I really wouldn't be too fussed about the rules but this guy must be completely and utterly clueless if he thinks it's ok to connect lighting directly to a 32A ring. I mean, come on, it's just common sense to anyone who knows anything about electrical work.

The only way that would be even slightly acceptable is if he locally fused each lighting circuit and set them up as fused spurs off the ring main and even then it would be weird.

Don't you guys have to keep lighting and power circuits seperate?

I would assume that in a chip shop there would even be a health and safety issue with having lighting and power on the same circuit in the event of an electrical fault plunging the cooking area into darkness.

The lights should be capable of staying on independent of any MCB/RCD protected power circuits.

What exactly is on this 32A ring anyway ?

Call up the NEC and have them re-inspect the work. Contractor's regulation bodies here can do that. They have regional inspectors who check that their members are doing things correctly.

Failing that write a letter to the property owner, stating your concerns. Take photographic evidence and discharge your duty of care.

Contact the HSE and see if you can get any advice / details of how they would suggest that you proceed.




[This message has been edited by djk (edited 07-27-2005).]

That would indeed be acceptable, but the cable running to each fused spur would still need to be 2.5 sq. mm, whether the fused connection unit was on the ring or wired as a spur from the ring.

I've used that technique on occasions where an existing ring is already close by and it would be very difficult to tap into a lighting circuit to add a light.

As a matter of interest, what other circuits are present in these premises? Is the 32A MCB in question the only one feeding both the sockets and lights in the shop area? Are there any other dedicated circuits for fryers and such like?

there is a circuit for a fryer / range, and it is on the same ring MCB as the cooker. On the fused spur question, there is only one in the building which is in the kitchen but i have no idea where it supplies. i am going to get photo evidence ASAP

In a situation like this Adam, provided that you can, get anyone that you can on your side, wether it be NICEIC or a local Electrical Inspector.
Look, I work for the local PoCo here, and I have got Inspectors in on jobs where dodgy wiring has happened, they won't hassle you, if they did I would be very amazed.
Majority of our Inspectors only work for Safety, that and that alone, don't be afraid to call them, that is thier job.
Besides, most Inspectors have come from the Contracting side of the Trade too.
At least here they have.
But let's look at the effects of a 32A MCB.
Under normal conditions, a 32A MCB will take:

32A x 1.5(Close Excess Current)= 48A

There is no way that a piece of 1.0mm, even 1.5mm could sustain that sort of overload, no matter how short.

Do you really mean "ring" MCB, or is it just a 32A MCB feeding both the fryer and the domestic cooker on radial circuits?

I still don't like even the latter. Maybe the chances of the domestic cooker being in use at the same time as the fryer are small, but each should really have its own dedicated circuit nevertheless.

sorry, yes it is just an MCB feeding both the cooker and the range. this could be changed but at difficulty, is it still safe to put them both on a 50A MCB?

No way!!
Two appliances like that would need to be protected individually.

Do you know the power rating of the fryer?

no sorry i dont, and it wont be untill next week that i can find out as i am on holiday at the moment.

I don't know how it's normally done in the UK, but over here you should have:

A dedicated radial circuit for the range and the fryer rated appropriately and connected to its own MCB.

There should be an isolating switch, usually a large red rotary type that's very easy to turn, identify and reach located far enough from the fryer / range to allow someone to isolate the power without being burned should there be a fire.
(these need to be clearly labled!)

Lighting should be on its own 6A or 10A radial.

And, if it were here anyway, socket outlets would be on another radial (or number of radials) protected by 16 or 20A MCB + RCD.

In an area like a chip shop, it would also be quite important that the electrical equipment should be capable of surving mechanical damage e.g. being hit with something heavy.

So, any surface mounted cable should be in steel conduit and any fittings should be metal clad or of industrial quality plastic and definitely not the normal white brittle switches and sockets you find in residential and office installations.

There should be no fittings / fixtures or wiring anywhere behind or near the fryer and precautions should be taken to ensure that no cabling / fittings are likely to be heat damaged / fire damaged or exposed to a lot of steam / condensation or splashes...
(Common sense applies!)

If the fryers / ranges / ovens are designed to be moved for cleaning, they would usually be connected using CEEform industrial plugs (rated appropriately)

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 07-31-2005).]

That's pretty much the same as here, except the socket circuits could be on 20A radials or a 32A ring.

The rotary isolating switches are often seen in commercial premises here, although other types could be employed. CEEform would also be used for movable fryers etc.