ECN Forum
Posted By: C-H Metric threads - 12/17/04 09:41 AM
"They" have started to sell cable glands etc. with metric thread instead of the Pg conduit thread. This is driving us nuts! When making changes and additions to equipment we installad earlier, noting fits. It was bad enough before to find conversions from Pg 29 to Pg 21. Now we need conversions from PG 29 to M25... Doesn't exist, it seems. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Belgian Re: Metric threads - 12/17/04 01:20 PM
Same here. Changes were made already 1 year ago and all type of new conversions have sprung up together with the changes.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 12/18/04 12:32 PM
Careful, C-H, you'll be joining us Brits in the anti-metric campaign! [Linked Image]

In domestic installations, this is still a problem with fixture screws: M3.5 supplied with new accessories vs. 4BA threads on 1960s boxes.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Metric threads - 12/18/04 05:45 PM
C-H,
I can't say that I've ever liked the Pg sizing system, for cable glands and so forth.
I've always found the Metric threading sizes a lot easier to use, but that's only my personal view!. [Linked Image]
Oddly enough, (and I really hate to play the EU card here) there is (like for other things) an EU Directive on Cable Glands and the like, it's called prEN 50262, but I have a feeling it may apply to more than just Cable Glands.
I didn't dare do a web search on it, for fear of getting lost in the technical data!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 12/19/04 02:06 PM
Google search \"prEN50262\"

Good luck! [Linked Image]
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 12/20/04 02:54 AM
Moving to standard systems, metric or otherwise, makes life a lot easier and will open up new product ranges to everyone in europe.

Plumbers in the UK and Ireland face metric-imperial problems regularly. Old fittings in this part of the world not being metric.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Metric threads - 12/22/04 08:36 PM
Just learned it at school today. Copper pipes are metric here, steel pipe is inches. Don't knwo about the threads used though.

Have to admit I never cared about electric box threads that much... I've only seen threads on IP44 or 55 surface mount boxes and there I always used the provided glands and that was all.
Posted By: C-H Re: Metric threads - 12/23/04 10:59 AM
The problem starts when you have holes or hole making tools for PG and go metric. A 47 mm punch is no good when the glands are either M40 (40 mm) or M50 (50 mm)...

More annoying is the fact that an M40 from one manufacturer hasn't the same inner diameter as an M40 from another manufacturer!

Still, the metric is better than the PG (fewer sizes to cover the same range) but currently this all seems in limbo... [Linked Image]
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Metric threads - 12/23/04 12:18 PM
Hang on a second C-H,
The PG (Plastics Gauge) was invented in Italy, so that could explain the wayward sizes.
Another point that Ragnar touches on is this:
  • In some places Electrical conduit gives the inside diameter of the conduit, in other places, it's the outer diameter, it's the same here with water pipe.
  • Plumbers here still use Imperial sizing on pipes, as do Refrigeration Engineers, regardless of wall thickness.

I size the hole-saw to the size of the outer diameter of the thread of the gland.
I've worked on gear to IP68 (Continuously Submurged to 8 metres) and I haven't had a leak yet!. [Linked Image]
Posted By: C-H Re: Metric threads - 12/24/04 06:41 PM
We do some plumbing as well (coolant water for machinery) and the funny thing is that most of what we use is 1/2" connections. That includes the gear that comes from Germany and Japan. The only exception is the American manufacturer of the plumbing parts: for some parts only metric threads are offered! The logic of this wonderful world... [Linked Image]

We have a box marked "Weird brass fittings" where all unidentified threads go, like metric and NPT.

BTW, can someone explain why a 1/2" thread has a diameter of about 3/4"? [Linked Image]
Posted By: Hutch Re: Metric threads - 01/02/05 11:33 AM
Quote
why a 1/2" thread has a diameter of about 3/4"
The nominal diameter is the internal one and the external dimension includes the thickness of the pipe walls. I came across a curious difference in the US where brass compression fittings are quoted using the external diameter of pipe! I couldn’t find a ¾” union (for ¾” copper pipe) I needed until I was directed to the 7/8” ones.

The metric world adopted the British Standard Pipe (BSP) thread as the ‘metric’ standard. The diameters are sometimes quoted in mm but the thread pitches are in rational units of threads per inch (tpi) – that should make Paul smile [Linked Image].

The US of course uses National Pipe Thread (NPT) which has different thread pitches than BSP thus they are once again different from the metric world.

Then there are the lamp thread pitches just to keep this subject on topic. The same threaded tube for table lamps etc is used in both South Africa and the US. It is called 1/8” ISP in the US but has a diameter of ~3/8” (~10mm) and a thread pitch of 27 tpi. In this case the internal diameter is well in excess of 1/8”.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Metric threads - 01/02/05 12:47 PM
Hutch,
Good point!.
In some cases with Plumbers using nasty old busted pipe threading gear that thier Grand- fathers used and abused, it's a wonder that the pipes didn't leak like a sieve here.
I learned how to thread pipes with a machine called a Thred-All and the pipe was held in a Pipe Vice.
Yes even to this day we still use the TPI nomenclature here.
Even, I must agree that there hasn't been a Brass fitting used here that doesn't use the Imperial sizing of either 3/8" or even 1/2" (outer diameter).
I went to buy some Brass recently for a guy I was building a 430MHz Ham Aerial for.
I needed some 8mm square stock for a T-Match and when I told the guy what size I wanted, he looked at me as though I'd sworn in Church.
He then informed me that I would be needing 5/16" stock, with rounded edges, no less!.
Good Grief!. [Linked Image]
I felt like saying to him,"Could you please put the corners back on, it has to be square".
But let's not make life harder, eh?!.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 01/03/05 01:50 PM
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The diameters are sometimes quoted in mm but the thread pitches are in rational units of threads per inch (tpi) – that should make Paul smile
Oh yes, I remember details like that for when somebody tries to tell me that "everything" is made to metric specifications these days! [Linked Image]

Copper water pipe in Britain underwent the change from inch to millimeter specifications, and in doing so also change from inside bore to outside diameter measurements. Hence an old 1/2-inch pipe is almost the same as a modern 15mm type, and is certainly close enough to be interchangeable in a compression fitting. Unfortunately, the changes to some of the larger size were not so convenient and necessitate the use of adapters when coupling up new pipes to an old system.
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 01/04/05 04:03 PM
We're going to metric speed limits this month

See http://www.gometric.ie/ for the huge count down clock and explanation of how they're going to do it.

I still don't believe they'll manage to do it as smoothly as they're suggesting!
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 01/04/05 04:28 PM
I knew that metric speeds were coming to Ireland, but hadn't realized it was this month.

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The total cost of this changeover is estimated to be €11 million - €9.0m for signs and €2.0m for the public information campaign.
I have to ask why? I would have thought most people would be happier for the money to spent on something useful.

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For the first time local authorities will be able to apply different speed limits to different carriageways or lanes.
What genius came up with this idea?

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The change to metric speed limits will improve road SAFETY
Now I've heard it all -- Metric speed limits are safer. I'd like to know how they managed to come to that conclusion. [Linked Image]
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 01/04/05 05:36 PM
The major safety change is the reduction of speed limits on minor roads (R-regional and L-Local) to 50 mph (80km/h) (they were 60mph)

They've also done away with a general 60 mph speed limit. i.e. every road will have a set speed limit.

They basically modernised the speed limit legislation to improve safety while converting to metric limits at the same time.

They could have done it years ago with MPH too.. it's partly spin and partly practicality .. i.e. if they're going to be changing all the speed limit signs, they may as well take the opportunity to review the actual limits as well as converting them.

There is absolutely no plan to convert to European style road signs though. All we're doing is replacing signs that clash.

i.e. in Ireland a symbol in a red circle = do it.. red circle crossed out = don't do it (quite logical)

in the rest of Europe red circle = forbidden.
white symbol on blue background = do it / permitted to do it.

So we're keeping our negative system i.e. red circle crossed out = don't do it.
and replacing the positive signs with Euro-style white symbol on blue background.

The yellow diamond warning signs are staying, as are the yellow lines marking hardshoulders and various other unique-to ireland systems as they don't cause any confusion.

--- there's also a few other marking systems that im not sure if they're unique to here or not.

The reflectors on the road on the outside are normally yellow... if a junciton is coming up they change to green for 300 meters before the junction (on the side of the junction) Junctions are also marked out by 3 green bollards thesedays too.

If a sharp bend is approaching, the cats eyes reflectors turn red on the side of the bend.

Actually works quite nicely, but isn't installed on all roads, only newly built / refurbished ones.

----

Also, the National Roads Authority had a VERY odd approach to motorway / dual carriage way design. They didn't like crash barriers in the centre! And instead, built most motorway / dual carriage way with a 20 meter wide centre median... the logic being that if you had the space, it was preferable to have a huge inclined median rather than a crash barrier as it would give you a much softer landing.

However, this logic was based on 1950s US studies! when cars moved a lot slower and we had several very bad accidents where trucks managed to plough across 20meters of sloping grass...

They've now had to retrofit many hundreds of KM of crash barriers to these enormously wide motorways.

They've also discovered that if you build the motorways with narrower medians, and with suitable crash barriers you actually save about 50% of the cost! [Linked Image]

[Linked Image from fantasyjackpalance.com]

There is NO barrier on that motorway! it has had to be retrofitted recently.

sorry for poughing so far off topic... but it just amazes me how these things happen! [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 01-04-2005).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 01/05/05 02:05 PM
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They could have done it years ago with MPH too.. it's partly spin and partly practicality .
Sure. Full marks for using common sense in making the changes together (the British govt. would probably have done it seperately at twice the cost! [Linked Image] ), but to say the change to km/h is responsible for improving safety is just ridiculous.

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in Ireland a symbol in a red circle = do it.. red circle crossed out = don't do it (quite logical)
Yep, much more logical and consistent than the stupid signs we're stuck with here. No left/right/U-turn has the cross through, but the others don't. [Linked Image] Visiting Americans, Australians, etc. must have a hard time trying to figure out our signs.

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The yellow diamond warning signs are staying,
Good, I prefer them to the red-bordered triangles as they seem to stand out more.

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as are the yellow lines marking hardshoulders
They struck me as odd first time I visited Ireland -- It was like driving on the exact opposite of U.S. highways with yellow center lines and white edge lines, although of course we're used to lots of yellow no-parking lines in towns here! [Linked Image]

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The reflectors on the road on the outside are normally yellow...
Makes sense that they match the line, which the reflectors here sometimes don't. Motorways here use white lane refelctors, amber on the far right edge by the barrier or median, red on the left shoulder [Linked Image] . The red changes to green at exit ramps.

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If a sharp bend is approaching, the cats eyes reflectors turn red on the side of the bend.
Again, must be rather off-putting to American tourists.

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sorry for poughing so far off topic...
Yep, apologies to C-H. Way off topic and criticizing European road signage as well! [Linked Image]




[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-05-2005).]
Posted By: C-H Re: Metric threads - 01/07/05 08:03 AM
[Linked Image]

Oh, well, I suppose I'll just continue down the road...

The Swedish road authorities have been surprisingly quick in adopting changes. New types of poles(*), changing from bulbs to LED's in traffic lights etc. were done in no time. Latest change is that all exits have become numbered, which is something other parts of the world have had since stone age.

Another novelty is the wire rail in the centre. It is designed to give way if you drive into it, preventing the car from bouncing and spinning around. It effectively absorbs the energy of the vehicle and has been sucessful in reducing fatal accidents.

Then we have this odd type of road used to save money: One lane in each direction plus a center lane that alternates between the directions. For maybe a kilometre, the northbound traffic has two lanes and then the southbound traffic has two lanes for a kilometre instead.

(*) A single square pole instead of multiple round poles is used behind new signs. They have changed the method of anchoring (???) them in the ground as well, from concrete to simply driving a winged steel "anchor" into the ground.
Posted By: Hutch Re: Metric threads - 01/07/05 04:26 PM
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Then we have this odd type of road used to save money:
That's not saving money! You should try a Rhodesian (long now Zimbabwean) strip road. It's essentially a dirt road with a single one-car width of tarmac down the middle. Drive like the clappers until something come the other way and then, at the last minute, both vehicles pull half onto the dirt with the centre-road wheels still on the edge of the tarmac. resume high speed travel thereafter.

If you really want to get cheap ten lay two thin strips of tarmac to act as the fast route - one for each side's pair of wheels.

Ian

PS To get this sort of back on topic - before Zimbabwe used candles, it had electricity. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 01-07-2005).]
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 01/08/05 09:37 PM
C-H. that type of "1+2" lane road system with the wire centre barrier is also being introduced in ireland. the plan is to have it on all major roads that don't warrent being widened to motorway / dual carriageway.

Paul: the logic of the yellow lines on the edge of roads is that in poor visibility you clearly identify the edge of the road as the outer edge and not another lane.

Also, on the exit numbering system. cork and dublin city councils have gone completely mad and numbered half the city's street junctions creating orbital routes with the most confusing signs i've ever seen anywhere.

[Linked Image from dublincity.ie] Outer orbtal

[Linked Image from dublincity.ie] inner orbtal.

these are the new simplified signs. the first version was so confusing they were banned by the department of transport!

the banned version

[Linked Image from dcba.ie]

note: they even put An Lar (city centre in Gaelic) which is as widely spoken in Dublin as it is in Paris and New york.

[Linked Image from dcba.ie]

Hundreds of these had to be removed and replaced! Cost a considerable amount of money and time.

people assumed they were secret codes put up to help UFOs find their way around town!

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 01-08-2005).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 01/08/05 10:05 PM
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A single square pole instead of multiple round poles is used behind new signs.
Is that a fairly small square pole? I don't know how many of you are familiar with both, but just compare the typical American and British methods of mounting a simple sign (e.g. a single STOP or YIELD sign). The British arrangement is pure overkill.

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You should try a Rhodesian (long now Zimbabwean) strip road. It's essentially a dirt road with a single one-car width of tarmac down the middle.
We have those in Norfolk, except the dirt portions to the side are known as fields! [Linked Image] Seriously though, there are a lot of back lanes only wide enough for one car.

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people assumed they were secret codes put up to help UFOs find their way around town!
Yikes! They do look a little confusing.

Don't tell anyone, but I reckon they were the Irish branch of THIS CONSPIRACY! [Linked Image]
Posted By: NORCAL Re: Metric threads - 01/09/05 01:06 AM
It's way off topic, but where did you find that site? [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 01/10/05 12:09 PM
I found it some months ago, but I can't remember what I was searching for at the time!

Did you get as far as the part telling you that the direction signs in Wal-Mart are part of the secret plot as well? [Linked Image]
Posted By: C-H Re: Metric threads - 01/10/05 12:46 PM
Confusing is the kindest that can be said for those banned Irish signs!

The Italians have nice signs and all but unless they think it is really, really necessary to put up a sign they don't. Giving directions at every roundabout is overkill. Every other is enough... Lost? Who, me? [Linked Image]

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Is that a fairly small square pole? I don't know how many of you are familiar with both, but just compare the typical American and British methods of mounting a simple sign (e.g. a single STOP or YIELD sign). The British arrangement is pure overkill.

No, the small signs have always had one pole with the occasional support strut. The large signs, like Dave's above had four or five poles plus supports! This was replaced with a large square "open" pole. Looks somewhat like a small version of the towers used for antennas or HV lines.
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 01/10/05 09:31 PM
Ours are still

small signs (average sized yeld/stop/local direction) : one pole.

Large stop/yeild/warning etc : 2 poles.

Bigger signs: Have seen up to 6 poles!
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 03/20/05 10:57 AM
So Dave,

How has the changeover to metric speeds gone now you've had them for a couple of months?
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 03/20/05 04:40 PM
Paul,

It went so smoothly it's almost creepy! I was expecting a mess of MPH and KM/H signs but, amazingly enough by the change over date all of the MPH signs disappeared and KM/H appeared in their place.

The only thing that caused some contraversy was the abolition of the "general national speed limit" which was 60mph.

[Linked Image from termisoc.org]
Meant end of speed controled zone... national speed limit of 60mph applies.

EVERY road now has an official speed limit marked up and that sign no longer exists.

Many rural folks were quite annoyed that non national primary routes (N roads) [the same as A roads in the UK] have had their speed limits reduced from 60mph to 80km/h... but, then again anyone who actually drove at a constant 60 mph on many of these R (regional) and L (link) roads should have considered a career as a rally driver!

The contraversy over the 80km/h limits didn't last long though... People seem to have just gotten used to it and are ignoring the signs just like they always did in the old MPH days anyway!

The police have started a big "anti detector detection campaign" though. It's completely illegal to own, operate, sell or store a laser or radar detector designed to pick up speed traps.

Apparently they've gotten quite popular in recent years. A local car accessory shop here in Cork was even raided and all of the devices they had on sale / in storage were siezed.

Seemingly, no one actually knew that they were illegal [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 03/21/05 12:03 PM
I didn't realize that radar detectors were illegal in Ireland. There was talk of outlawing them here a while back, but so far as I know nothing ever came of it.

To me, the "national speed limit" sign has always been something of an oddity. It imposes a speed limit without explicitly specifying what that limit is. In the U.K., for example, that same sign can mean 60 or 70 MPH depending upon the type of road (and at one time it could mean 50, 60, or 70!).

Another odd sign has crept in since they started posting 20 limits in towns. Instead of a regular circular speed limit sign, like this:
[Linked Image from highwaycode.gov.uk]

we hava a rectangular one which adds the word "zone" to it:
[Linked Image from highwaycode.gov.uk]

Then at the end of the 20 zone, we get one which shows 30 and a 20 crossed out in gray!

[Linked Image from highwaycode.gov.uk]

Why they don't just put up regular 20 and 30 signs is anybody's guess. [Linked Image]


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-21-2005).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Metric threads - 03/21/05 12:21 PM
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Then we have this odd type of road used to save money: One lane in each direction plus a center lane that alternates between the directions. For maybe a kilometre, the northbound traffic has two lanes and then the southbound traffic has two lanes for a kilometre instead

We have that on hills and mountains. Going up there are two lanes, but where visibility is good enough, the lane going down has an interrupted double line towards the center lane, which menas you can use the center lane for overtaking from both lanes. For that reason everybody calls the center lane overtaking lane. Works quite well where it is used but led to frequent frontal crashes when they tried to introduce it everywhere. Now you have some roads with two incredibly wide lanes...

In Austria we always used to have yellow lines everywhere, with the exception of hard shoulder lines and zebra crossings that where always white. The border lines where yellow though, so when the hard shoulder ended at an exit ramp you suddnely had the line change from white to yellow and back again. In 1994 a worldwide treaty came into force and they changed everything but no parking lines to white. Actually they even changed those and then changed them back to yellow again...

We also have blue lines in the limited time parking zones.

Speed limit is 50/100/130, and now they're discussing a 160 speed limit. the best argument against: We're in Austria. With a 130 limit people go 160. With a 160 limit they'd go 220. So we best leave the speed limit as is.

The Germans don't have a general expressway speed limit at all.
Posted By: Hutch Re: Metric threads - 03/21/05 01:27 PM
I've always liked the 'delimit' sign and consider it quintessentially British (in sensu lato as in Isles – thereby escaping the various nationalities bit [Linked Image] ). Explaining it to foreigners is a bit like explaining the rules of cricket – even when you have finished, the look in their face suggests they might still not understand – quite.

Remember too the Isle of Man where, if I recall correctly, delimit is still just that and as long as one does not drive without undue care and attention or dangerously you can go as fast as you want. Not that you would on most Manx roads.

This thread must take the prize for being the most OT – not just from the gambit of the board but also the title of the thread!


[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 03-21-2005).]
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 03/21/05 03:21 PM
Well "metric thread" makes some sense so it's kind of still on topic... it just reinterpreted the word thread.

Ireland obviously ignored that international treaty in 1994. I think we maintain that as we drive on the opposite side of the road to the rest of Europe that our roads should look physically different to remind European drivers that they aren't at home anymore!

Our hardshoulders and road edges are all marked out with yellow lines and yellow reflectors.

There are a few other quirks:

The yellow edge reflectors turn to green for 200 meters before all junctions and change to read ahead of sharp bends.

Also, (recent change) all junctions are marked out by a pair of large green reflective plastic posts on either side of the ajoining road.

The NRA (National Roads Authority) are progressively moving everything towards this unique standard.

All warning signs remain the US-style yellow diamonds too and there are absolutely no plans to change to European / UK style triangles.

Ireland had a lot of problems with inconsistant road markings and signage as each county council tended to take their own slightly different interpretations of the national rules. That has changed drastically as there are now Irish standard numbers for each sign and various regulations about how they can be installed. The county councils also had responsibility for most of the main roads in the country removed from them when the NRA was established in the 1990s to manage the national road network and construct the motorway network.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 03/21/05 07:41 PM
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Then we have this odd type of road used to save money: One lane in each direction plus a center lane that alternates between the directions. For maybe a kilometre, the northbound traffic has two lanes and then the southbound traffic has two lanes for a kilometre instead.
I've seen similar arrangements in the States, particularly, as I recall, around the Appalachians where the roads are somewhat less straight than usual and with more limited visibility. You find it in England as well in places, most noticeably on hills where two lanes going uphill makes it easier for faster traffic to get past the trucks and trailers.

Britain used to have 3-lane roads in which the center lane was for passing from [b]both[b] directions all the way along! It was up to anyone moving from either outside lane to make sure the center lane was clear enough to complete the maneuver. They've all gone now, which is probably just as well in today's heavier traffic.

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We're in Austria. With a 130 limit people go 160. With a 160 limit they'd go 220. So we best leave the speed limit as is.
Yikes, 160kph is 100 mph! [Linked Image] Sorry, but in my opinion that's getting much too high. 70 to 80 mph is probably about as high as it should go.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-21-2005).]
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 03/22/05 01:34 AM
The National Roads Authority in Ireland's "rolling out" quite a lot of those "1+2" roads.. A lot of our newer N-Roads (national primary routes) are wide single carriage way with wide hardshoulders. They're just redesigning the lane layout and installing a centre crash barrier along the entire route. The extra lane alternates from side to side every few KM to allow cars to pass safely, but it's impossible ot pass (due to the crash barrier)when there is no passing lane.
The idea is to eventually completely eliminate all single carriage way roads and hopefully any chance of headon collisions which are almost always caused by dangerous overtaking on single carriageways.
Posted By: C-H Re: Metric threads - 03/22/05 05:43 PM
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Yikes, 160kph is 100 mph! Sorry, but in my opinion that's getting much too high. 70 to 80 mph is probably about as high as it should go.

160 kph is about the limit where people tend to end up if there is no limit as the fuel consumtion is skyhigh at this speed and it is also getting somewhat uncomfortable in most cars. Sure, a few will go much faster, but not those with a lick of common sense.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Metric threads - 03/25/05 02:58 PM
Quote
ritain used to have 3-lane roads in which the center lane was for passing from [b]both[b] directions all the way along! It was up to anyone moving from either outside lane to make sure the center lane was clear enough to complete the maneuver.

We had those too, and it led to frequent frontal crashes. Now these roads have 2 extremely wide lanes.

Reflectors are red on the right-hand side and white on the left-hand side here.

The delimit sign is quite common here, it just means all previous limits end and the general limits (50/100/130) apply.

One note on the line colors: the white paint tends to wear off rather quickly and the yellow paint frequently reappears... even today. Roads that were reconstructed after the introduction of the white lines tend to have no lines at all. They either wear off or turn the the color of tarmac [Linked Image]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Metric threads - 03/25/05 02:59 PM
Oh, and by the way, I just had a look at the big box store recently. All threads I could find were PG21... and the pipes are metric.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Metric threads - 03/26/05 08:01 PM
Well then,
Seems we've got onto road signs and other such things, here is the LTNZ Travellers Guide
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 03/28/05 09:11 AM
[Linked Image from ltsa.govt.nz]

From: http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/roadcode/giving-way/the-give-way-rules4.html

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If you are turning left, give way to vehicles coming towards you that are turning right.

Yikes! That would take some getting used to. Over here the car turning right has to yield to the one turning left.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Metric threads - 04/02/05 11:22 AM
Yeah Paul,
It's a mine-field on the roads here.
We've always given way to the right here, but to add to the already confused state of things, Parliament want's to change the rules so that you give way to your left now.
Some people (I would reckon most) here can't even use the current rules, let alone bring in new ones.
Like for instance, how do you know a vehicle is going to turn anyway, if the driver doesn't use thier indicators?. [Linked Image]
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 04/03/05 01:21 PM
There should be a "normal" way of doing the fundemantal things and those shouldn't be changed... E.g. rules on who yeilds to whom on a junction.

Why is the NZ parliament trying to change the rules? To bring NZ into normal international standards?

If it's moving away from the usual way of doing things all that will happen is loads of tourists won't have a clue and you'll have rental cars being involved in nasty accidents. It's bad that many tourists have to cope with driving on the opposite of the road to what they're used to, couple that with weird rights of way on junctions and you've a very dangerous situation.

I remember getting off a flight from the USA at Shannon Airport in the west of Ireland and seeing all these little old ladies from LA picking up their low budget tiny manual (stick shift) Renault Clios and driving to the Southwest (single carriage narrow highway mostly, and really narrow countryroads if you get off the beaten track) at 5:00am on a mistly foggy morning with extreme jet lag.

(they were all wearing stripy green clothes and singing Irish eyes are smiling.. even more worrying!!)

The perfect recipe for disaster!

We regularly have head on high speed collisions in rural areas caused by US and European drivers who have completely forgotten themselves and are driving at full speed on the right!! It can happen in rural areas that you won't meet very much other traffic, particularly early in the morning so it's quite possible to drive for several KM without meeting anything.

Or, more commonly, US / Euro drivers who turn a corner and end up driving straight into on coming traffic as they end up on the wrong side of a junction.

or on the wrong side of a road driving at speed when a tractor / local resident turns out of their driveway looking in the direction they'd expect on-coming traffic to be moving!

There are regular signs reminding (in several languages) that you need to drive on the left! complete with pictograms.

European drivers tend to cause more accidents in general as they are more likely to actually drive here (via the car ferry from France) so will be driving their own left-hand drive cars.

Overtaking in a car with the driver on the wrong side is both difficult and very dangerous!

(Unlikely scenario in NZ!!)




[This message has been edited by djk (edited 04-03-2005).]
Posted By: C-H Re: Metric threads - 04/03/05 03:37 PM
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Overtaking in a car with the driver on the wrong side is both difficult and very dangerous!

This was the main safety reason argued when Sweden shifted from left to right. As all cars had the steering wheel on the left (but buses on the right hand side) there were numerous accidents when car drivers tried to overtake other vehicles.
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 04/03/05 06:08 PM
C-H,

There are an ever increasing number of left-hand-drive trucks on the road here as many companies choose to base their fleets in other EU countries where road tax etc is cheaper and also because most of their journies are across european motorways not in the UK and Ireland.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 04/05/05 10:50 AM
I really think that the "problem" of having a LHD car in Britain (or Eire, NZ etc.) is much overrated. I've had LHD here for years and it just isn't that big a deal.

Sure, there are places where it makes seeing to pass a little more difficult, but you find that in some sitiations (e.g. a sweeping left-hand curve) you can actually see things that you wouldn't in a RHD vehicle. Besides, if you can't see well enough in any car then you shouldn't be trying to pass anyway, right?

Maybe it's just that I don't worry about passing other vehicles all that much. Around here, most of the roads are too narrow and twisty to be able to overtake safely anyway.

You'll see a lot of trucks in this area which are British RHD origin but running on Dutch license plates. Apparently quite a few haulage companies set up offices over there some years ago when they could license a 30+ tonner for about £400 in The Netherlands while the pack of thieves in British government charged nearly £4000! [Linked Image]
Posted By: kiwi Re: Metric threads - 04/10/05 10:15 AM
Many moons ago NZ changed from Imperial to Metric speed limits and we had signs with both speeds written on them (30/50, 70/100,)for a while during the changeover and conversion stickers to put on your speedo. The switch all went really well because it was the seventies and everybody was driving low powered Austins and Datsuns.

The "Flush Median" or Middle lane. What happens when two cars travelling in opposite directions want to use it ? We're seeing these more and more in NZ. They just seem like a bad idea to me.

As for the give way rule at intersections, Australia got it right, and NZ got it wrong, and the NZ government will probably change it. I'm not looking forward to that, I think the Automobile repair industry WILL however.

Yes unfortunately in NZ we are having the odd incident of campervan head-ons. The only way to fix this is to abolish visitors driving licenses and have hired drivers ( like Asia ). I don't know how Avia and Hertz will feel about that though.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 04/10/05 09:54 PM
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The "Flush Median" or Middle lane. What happens when two cars travelling in opposite directions want to use it ?
The way those worked here was simply that it was up to any overtaking driver to make sure that the middle lane was clear far enough head to complete the maneuver and pull back to the left in safety.

Both could use the lane, but neither had priority, if you see what I mean.

If you had drivers coming from opposite directions, each deciding to pull out to pass without signaling first, then there was going to be a big problem. [Linked Image]

One reason why these center "both-ways" lanes were phased out here was simply that the increasing volume of traffic on British roads was making them completely impractical.

Compare this with the "Center lane left turn only" arrangements in the United States. The latter is a practical solution to keeping turning cars from blocking the through traffic -- But the difference there is that using the center lane for passing is not allowed.

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The only way to fix this is to abolish visitors driving licenses and have hired drivers ( like Asia ). I don't know how Avia and Hertz will feel about that though.
I don't know how potential visitors would like it either. If I were planning a visit to NZ and was told I wouldn't be allowed to drive there, that would be the end of the trip before it even started.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 04-10-2005).]
Posted By: djk Re: Metric threads - 04/10/05 10:17 PM
I think the hired drivers idea would be a total non starter in any developed country to be quite honest. Wage costs would make it utterly unafordable for tourists!

A country like NZ or Ireland / Scotland / England etc is best visited by car too. Tourists like to browse around and have the freedom to explore at their own pace.

I mean they're ideal countries to do that kind of self-drive exploration in!

They're not THAT dangerous to drive in, but I do think that it's vital to remind tourists occasionally which side of the road they should be on, particularly in rural areas where traffic levels are so light that it is possible to slip into the old habit of driving on the right until you hit a tractor!

I suppose you could also argue that tourists are less likely to have accidents than New Zealanders as they're going to be far more alert driving on an entirely alien road system!
[Linked Image]

When I think about it the number of French drivers who go around roundabouts the wrong way is miniscule compared to the number of Irish drivers who manage to do far more lethal things despite being 100% familiar with the roads.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Metric threads - 04/10/05 10:43 PM
Familiarity breeds contempt?
Posted By: Hutch Re: Metric threads - 04/11/05 07:58 AM
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The way those worked here was simply that it was up to any overtaking driver to make sure that the middle lane was clear far enough head to complete the maneuver and pull back to the left in safety.
Both could use the lane, but neither had priority, if you see what I mean.

If you had drivers coming from opposite directions, each deciding to pull out to pass without signaling first, then there was going to be a big problem.

Most nearly fatal accident we had as a family back in the early 1970's. Freckleton marsh, south of Blackpool. Three lane road with common centre passing lane. Dad pulls out to overtake and at the same time, in the distance, oncoming car does the same - both cars pull back. Thinking one's letting the other go Dad has another go - the other driver obviously thought the same - it was a bit like meeting someone on the pavement and both stepping side to side trying to pass each other.

Situation ended up with four cars on a three lane road with the centre pair passing at 140 mph! There were no wing mirrors on cars in those days and the passing gap was so small that three pairs of door handles got smashed! My mother's palms were bleeding from clenching her fists. Not something to be repeated and I'm glad these roads have at last been phased out.

South Africa has them with an important modification - one direction has a dashed and single white line rather than just a dashed one which reinforces that the other direction has priority. I have still though seen what was probably a fatal head-on in this situation. Not good.
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