The new "harmonized" color code has become part of the IEE Wiring Regulations in the U.K. from April 1.

The IEE is sending out this flyer which summarizes the changes:
www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/Cable%20Colours%20Leaflet.pdf

An on-line version of an article which has just appeared in the IEE's Wiring Matters newsletter goes into greater detail:
www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/IEE_Harmonized_colours.pdf

More links and details here:
www.iee.org/cablecolours


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 04-02-2004).]

These changes are bound to cause a lot of confusion to installers even though they are well documented, not too bad if like myself you have worked with German/French companies which have used blue/black and brown-black/black and brown in their three phase flex cables to motors.

Looks like a well run forum, hope i will fit in

[This message has been edited by Ever Ready (edited 04-02-2004).]

Very interesting links, Paul. I'll bet there are a few that may not welcome such a change.

Looking at page 1 of Paul's second reference one can see just how out of step the UK had become with regards to the rest of Europe.

Change looked inevitible since 1969. At least Switzerland to not have to transpose a phase and neutral colour like the UK has to.

Does anyone know if other countries like South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are likely to follow suit?

Great link Paul.
I was wondering about this configuration a couple of years ago when using a German-made screened control cable.
I'd be interested to see if this coding is taken on over here.
Eveready, welcome to the Forum!.
Like you said, this may cause a little confusion to Electricians, but what about Joe Bloggs, installing a few sockets in his home?.
The Authorities want to get the message through to the DIY'er and DIY stores before any wholesale colour changes.

Welcome to the forum Ever Ready.

You might like to check the following thread from last year where we discussed the proposed changes:
New UK colour code

We also had a long discussion about different international color codes in general that might be of interest:
International Wire Colour Codes

My position on this is unchanged from last year. Frankly, I see no need for the U.K. to undergo this change just for the sake of "harmonization." Red and black have been associated with line and neutral here for decades (I'm not sure when they were standardized, but certainly back as far as the 1920s).

We've had brown/blue on flexes since around 1970 (with the attendant conflict of colors), so at least the average DIYer is already familiar with the brown/blue scheme. I've often wondered why the IEE didn't adopt the new European colors for fixed cables at the same time for consistency.

Note that the original proposal was that where old and new cables were to be joined colored ID sleeves should be applied at the terminations, but the final version now calls for alphanumeric tags instead (L1, L2, L3, N).

At least the IEE has specified a warning notice at the main distibution panel where both old and new colors are used within an installation, although it will be superfluous for those already familiar with the new scheme and probably ignored by those most in need of a warning!

Paul what is the point of Harmonization?.
To my way of thinking, the EU can't even spell properly, its Harmonisation!.
But what's next, a new set of colours that were just like the old colours?.
The song by the Who comes to mind "Won't get fooled Again".

Thanks for the links Paul,I think a lot of electrical problems could be eradicated if the electrical industry went the same way as the gas industry with their Corgi/Acops registration system. I think an awful lot of foul ups and accidents etc could be avioded if the people who think simply being able to wire a 13A plug makes them an electrician were prohibited by law from working on electrical systems.

Thanks for the welcome guys



[This message has been edited by Ever Ready (edited 04-03-2004).]

Ever Ready, sorry to disturb your peace of mind, but do you ever read uk.d-i-y? General consensus there seems to be: "Corgi? Overpaid stupid idiots! Everybody who knows what a piece of copper pipe looks like can pipe his house's gas system!"

I know what you mean Texas_Ranger, I have had dealings with Corgi gas fitters and some of their work can leave a lot to be desired, I have also worked with several non Corgi gas fitters and they were about the same. I was recently working on an industrial installation and the "plumber" piped high pressure oxygen in a clear plastic pipe with no markings on the pipe or indeed any mechanical protection as the pipe passed through sheet metal bulkheads.

I know that a registration system would not stop all the diy nutcases but hopefully it would weed out a few. In particular a customer I worked for last week who rewired his upstairs lighting system and switched all the neutrals at the single pole light switches

*edited spelling mistakes*

[This message has been edited by Ever Ready (edited 04-04-2004).]

[This message has been edited by Ever Ready (edited 04-04-2004).]

Paul,


I would tend to disagree with you. There is absolutely no reason for the UK, or any other country, to opt-out of harmonisation.

1) Economics:

For cable makers, equipment manufacturers etc etc. this standardisation opens up the entire EU (and Cenelec) market. The colour code variations are unnecessary barriers to entry. Small variations in mass-manufactured products can add a supprisingly large amount to costs.

Remember these regulations apply to 470 million people! (And tens of millions of others beyond the EU) the UK market represents a meer 57 million at most.

2) Safety.

With increased movement of people around Europe it makes a lot more sense that householders, professionals etc are always going to find familar colours when they open a box and try to do DIY work. The current system is a complete mess with some countries using colours for ground that others use for phases! I realise that it will take decades for the old systems to disappear, but, just like round-pin-plugs in the UK, they will eventually be banished to history.

In domestic cabling systems I don't think it's at all acceptable to expect householders to deal with 2 different colour codes. Many younger people would be completely baffled by Red/Black and Green cables behind a socket, yet might attempt to wire it anyway.. Consumers are very familar with the harmonised flexible wiring code.

These are the kind of differences that make economies of scale in the EU much more difficult to achieve than in the US. If Europe's to actually become more economically dynamic it has to harmonise and remove some of these internal and utterly unnecessary barriers.

Interestingly I've noticed that ESB in Ireland uses the harmonnised colours on the cores in heavy LV distribution cable.

Valid points there, but I'm not sure I can agree with them fully.

1. Economics. As one of the articles linked to on the IEE page points out, the most commonly used styles of British cable, such as our "twin & earth," aren't widely used elsewhere in Europe. That being the case, there seems little to be gained, unless we're going to adopt Continental-style cables along with the new colors. (By the way, that link says that our SWA-type cable isn't very common on the Continent -- Can anyone confirm this?)

2. Safety. I can see an argument for common coding of appliance flexes. Appliances can be sold all over Europe, moved around easily, and as we still have varying types of connectors at least in the U.K., Ireland, Denmark, etc. people will need to change the plugs.

I don't see that the same requirement applies in any way to the fixed wiring in a building. People don't take building electrical systems with them when moving to another country (well, most people don't ).

I wouldn't be too sure about younger DIYers not understanding the old red/black coding either. Even though the brown/blue systemn has been used on flex for over 30 years, anyone who has ever opened up a wall socket will have seen red/black, no matter whether it was installed a week ago or back in 1930.

Trumpy,
The official documentation here does actually use "harmonisation." I'm just used to writing harmonize, recognize, realize, etc. so I use those spellings automatically unless specifically referring to a different spelling.

Off-topic English lesson : The -ize form is actually the original spelling of these words, hence their dominance in America. The British -ise endings are a relatively modern variant, not in widepsread use until quite a way into the 20th century. My old "King's English" dictionary from the early 1930s lists only the -ize forms as standard in the main text, with -ise noted as an acceptable variant in the addendum.

When it comes to underground cables, it seems that the British SWA and the German NYYJ are de facto standard in many countries outside Europe. (Not including North and South America)

Europeans seem to prefer the round NYM cable to the flat T&E. Both are common around the world, but may carry some local designation. Clever marketing trick: The manufacturers sell the same cable in several countries but with different names and approvals to confuse the buyers and keep competition down. The British T&E can't be used in countries where a full size earth is required.

Below is a link to the documentation for an Israeli cable: The document refers to British Standard, VDE, Israeli Standard and IEC standards. (Note: Slow server)
http://www.cvalim.co.il/products/catalogue/PCD45-3.pdf http://www.cvalim.co.il/products/catalogue/PCD45-3.pdf

Is there any real safety advantage of a full sized earth over Twin & earth UK style cable?

In most instances once there's a path to earth at all it will trip an RCD pretty much instantaniously.

I can see it being more of an issue where fuses were the sole means of protection as it was more likely that an earth/ground cable would need to survive a high current until the fuse blows.

---

I realise that a larger earth cable would potentially reduce impedence etc.. but is it actually that vital?



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 04-06-2004).]

The larger earth conductor would reduce the "touch" potential at the point of the fault compared to the reduced size, although as you said, that's really only likely to be an issue on a non-RCD circuit with allowable disconnect time of 5 seconds. (By the way, do the Irish rules have similar 0.4 and 5 second requirements?)

I know that American NM cable (Romex) used to have a reduced-size ground wire. I'm not sure when it was made full size or what the rationale behind the change was.

By the way, according to the IEE the new cables will be available from stockists "On or soon after" March 31.

I haven't found anywhere around here stocking them yet. How about our other U.K. members?

I asked in City Electrical Factors if they had the new cable in yet but they only had the old type.

I plan to start using the new cable colours on all new builds when it is available and use the old coloured cable on existing installations to avoid having to remark the old cables when they are mixed with new, will be ok until the old cable colours are phased out.

I wonder how long it will take the supply providers to remark the incoming cable and meter tails on old installations?

Paul, Ever-ready,
Our 4mm and 6mm 2C+E and 3C+E TPS uses the 2.5mm Earth Conductor.
The thing about an Earthing Conductor, is it only carries current under Fault conditions, there-fore, it is Down-sized.
Biggest thing with any sort of Earthing system is your connections.
An effective Earth is only as good as the terminals that Bond it, to the said Earthing Point.

I went to buy T&E cable from my local branch of Wm Wilson (the cheapest for cable at present)on Thursday, and was unable to get any 1.0mm 6242Y (old or new colours). There was 1.5 & 2.5 T&E & 1.0 & 1.5 3c&e available in the new colours.

I was surprised to see the "harmonized" stocks (manufactured by AEI cables) come in so quickly, however I was specifically looking for cable with the existing code to complete a job already started.
I was told they had about 8500M of 1.5 & 2.5 T&E available in the "old" colours and when that was sold only the new colours would be available.
There was also 25mm 6181YH (meter tails) with a blue core / grey sheath available, but not the corresponding brown / grey cable. The blue / grey cable did look strange, but I guess we'll get used to it soon.

If this is any indication it looks like the conversion process is going to be fairly quick in the T&E type, house wiring cables.

As I've said before I would much prefer to keep our existing code, but I do see that we are somewhat isolated in using black as neutral and the change was inevitable. In single phase installations this should be fairly straight forward and safe, but 3 phase installations may be more of a problem.
Incidentally, I have had a few customers comment that their wiring must be really old because it is red, black. They are then surprised when they see me install cables with red & black cores, though not for much longer.


[This message has been edited by David UK (edited 04-10-2004).]

BDC-Bridisco (my usual supplier) don't have any of the new cables in stock yet, although with the copper price fluctuations at the moment I guess we should be thankful for any cable we can get.

One thing I have found with BDC is that they seem to run out of quite common items all too regularly these days. The Norwich outlet, despite being listed as one of their "Super-warehouses" often has no stocks of 4mm 6242Y.

It will be interesting to keep an eye on B&Q, Homebase, and the other DIY chains to see when they first get the new cables in too.

Going back to the new colors, I've never been happy with the adoption of blue for neutral on flexes. It makes no sense to me.

I accept that Britain was (and still is) somewhat isolated in the use of black as a neutral when almost everywhere else in the world (outside of British influence) uses it as a phase.

But I think a better choice could have been made 30+ years ago when the new standard was being drawn up. What would have been wrong with adopting gray as a neutral?

Gray was already in use as such in Germanic countries, not used for anything in British territories, and it would have had the additional benefit of at least partial "harmonization" with North American standards if the true aim was to minimize worldwide difference in color coding.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 04-11-2004).]

Here is a laugh from uk.d-i-y

---------------------
Following hot on the heels of the introduction of new wiring colours to
harmonise British and European electrical installations, the EU is launching
a consultation process into further integrating building construction
methods across Europe.

Plumbing.

The marking of hot and cold taps with country- or language-specific
designations such as 'H' & 'C' is an impediment to the free trade of
plumbing fitting within the EU and does not accord with official EU policies
on multilingualism. The EU is also concerned about the safety implications
of a disparity of markings within the EU. The existing alphabetic-based
legends are also contrary to the EU's policy on social inclusion for the
literacy challenged. Accordingly, the Commission will introduce a Directive
to ensure that all hot and cold taps are marked with Euro-standard
pictograms of a snowflake for cold and a thermometer for hot. All new taps
fitted after 4/2006 will have to comply with the Directive. Existing taps do
not have to be replaced, but where a mix of old and new taps is present on
an installation, an approved warning notice in all Community languages must
be displayed adjacent to the mains water supply point.

The Commission is also concerned that the practice of putting the cold tap
on the right is both handist and disablist, discriminating as it does
against left-handed and one- or -no-handed persons. The Commission will in a
forthcoming Euro Water Directive require all taps fitted from 4/2008 to be
of an Approved Euro Tap design with equal access to both hot and cold
tap-handles from either side together with a child-proof temperature
limiter.

Windows.

The use of outward-opening windows in some countries and inward-opening in
others presents obvious safety risks of persons inadvertently falling out of
windows. The Commission believes that significant economic benefits could be
gained by the opening up of the first fix and replacement window market
across the EU and accordingly will harmonise window styles and sizes across
the Community. The approved Eurowindow (Eurofenetre,
Euroausstellderstandardsicherheitharmonisiertesinneresfenster) will be a
top-hung inward-opening triple-glazed window with inbuilt stress-tested
mounting points for nationally-approved window box planters and must be of
sufficient dimensions if above the ground floor to permit the access and
egress of a Eurostandard piano whilst incorporating a householder safety
lock which can only be over-ridden by the insertion of an
appropriately-authorised Euroidentitycard. The Eurowindow (Eurofenetre,
Euroausstellderstandardsicherheitharmonisiertesinneresfenster) will be
available in two versions, one with additional weatherproofing (Britain,
northern France, Netherlands) and one with ecologically advanced rainwater
collection and storage facilities (Spain, Italy, Portugal).

British representatives from the ODPM's office will be studying French
construction practice by participating in a fact-finding visit to the
typical French department of Guadeloupe.

Owain

Paul,


That sounds like a lot of places here too.

Far be if from me to judge international systems, but I cringed when I saw the diagram showing the old 3-phase colors connected to the new ones. Looks like a nightmare to me, considering the amount of 3-phase installations that will have blue as a phase and neutral (as you pointed out), especially in the UK.

Peter

C-H,
Thanks a heap for the post.
But,
Where does all this end?.
We can have an All-Inclusive regime that causes NO offence to anyone, even to the extent that wires are banned, because people that are not conversant with wire colours, might be offended by thier presence!.
Don't even start to think about Colour-Blindness!.

LOL at C-H's post!

We may jest about it today, but this sort of joke appears only because such nonsense does go on. How about the EU exit signs directive? All because some bureaucrat thinks that the people of Europe are too stupid to learn Sortie, Ausgang, Salida etc. when going to another country.

By the way, H & C markings on taps had all but disappeared here, replaced with red and blue inserts (red and green on some older taps). They've made something of a comeback with the "retro" antique taps now widely available.

Yeah, that's about right for the Whitehall bureaucrats. Anything for a vacation in the sun, and again, based on something which actually has happened!

(Note for the "Geographically challenged": Guadeloupe is not in Europe at all. It's one of the French islands in the Caribbean.)

Paul, Ever Ready and David,

How far has the change to the new cables progressed? From what David wrote, it appears the suppliers must have been very quick to restock.

By the way: I've looked around the net and it appears many continental countries have already changed colours. A much easier transition of course, requiring little or no change in regulations.

No sign of them at BDC in Norwich yet, but it can only be a matter of time.

I see that TLC now has this note on their website:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Cable/Index.htm

Changes like this are unlikely to take very long to filter through as it's likely that the major suppliers operate a just-in-time stock control system so don't have all that much cable sitting around for very long.

The big box stores here took almost a year to stock the new cable. I think now they have cable with a grey L3, but I'm not sure. Hardly ever buy something like that, I prefer using conduit, especially where more than 3 wires are involved. Wiring a combined socket and 3-way switch with NYM is a PITA.
Grey 1,5mm2 conduit wire has been in stock for more than a year (rather 2), I already used it as a switched phase when we did our new wiring.

I picked up a couple of drums of 1.5 & 2.5 T+E on Monday from a local CEF and they were
the old colours, maybe they have a large stockpile of the old cable to shift

I was in Norwich today and thought I'd have a quick look in B&Q (big DIY store).

They have no cable with the new colors yet, but most of their stock labels on the reels carry January and February dates, so it might be a few more weeks before new stock starts appearing on the shelves.

And dont forget to use your brown sleeving...............and all you people out there who put black sleeving on to mark a neutral conductor, you must now go back and take it off........

leave us alone red yellow blue,, is all i know..

I ordered 500m of 2.5 T+E a few weeks ago and got 1 250m drum new colours the other old colours. Lucky i dont need it all for one job

Guys,
This has really got way out of kilter.
In times gone by a 2 core+E mean't single phase feed or switch wire (RGBlack)
And a 3core meant a strap wire between a 2 way and or an Intermediate circuit (RYB)
Also, there would be the 3 Core+E which would be a 3 phase 400V delta load (RYB+G)
Plus a Black Neutral, if it was Star connected.

Trumpy, the problem is the cowards in the UK Industry. They blame the change on the EU, when the reality is the UK Government and the NICEIC, ECA and IEE all conspired to bring this toot into force. They have been slowly bring us in line with the EU for the last 25 years.

It is a fools errand. The UK has the lowest fatality/injury rate for electricity in the industrialised world, that implies our system must be doing something right. To now make this system that same as some mickey mouse crap from the Eurozone is a joke.

You can find out more here.
www.ae3.org.uk/technical/colour_changes.htm

Hi there FWL, and welcome to the forum.

I take it we can count you as another vote against the new colors then....

There really doesn't seem to be many people in this country (outside of the IEE and other committees) who support the change. Unfortunately, this country has long since stopped being run on the basis of that the people want.

Numbers please.

C-H, I'll dig them out, I have them somewhere for the last 12 months.

In actual killed I think it may be Sweden or Finland with the absolute figue lowest number of deaths, however you need to take into account the population of a state when calculating such figures in any subject.

From memory, in the previous 12 months there are 44 cases of deaths in England and Wales being attributed to electric shock, only two of these were professional electricians, over 70% were DIY bodgers, the remainder Kids retrieving balls from substations etc and I think 4 were idiots trying to abstract electricity from overhead lines without paying for it..!!

As I said, I will hunt out the figures and post them.

[This message has been edited by FWL_Engineer (edited 05-16-2004).]

I had to look up the Swedish figures: The latest was 2 deaths/year and 200 reported non-lethal accidents. The good news is that the figures are a magnitude less than they were 25 years ago.

Anyway, with nine million people it works out to less than 0.25 deaths per million people. (Most deaths related to electricity stem from fires but I couldn't find a report of them)

If your figures for the UK are correct, 44 deaths per 60 million, it works out to less than .75 deaths per million.

Compared to traffic, one could say that there are almost no deaths from electricity.

I agree.

The real problem is the figures are also a bit misleading. Normal UK death rates per annum are about 25, for some reason 2002 (the year the figures are for) was particularly bad.

2001 was 26
2000 was 21
1999 was 27
2003 is expected to be about 24

Welcome to the board, jamesm.

The article at your firm's website [www.franklin-wood.co.uk/colour_changes.htm] with illustrations/commentary on pending phase-color changes is excellent.

I do not envy electrical professionals that will have to deal with the surely forseeable confusion and likely frustration in upcoming decades.


[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 05-16-2004).]

I'd just to stress that this wasn't something the EU forced upon the UK, it was something the UK forced upon the EU. In fact, IEE forced the whole of Europe to change colour coding just so that it could change in the UK. AND STILL BLAME THE EU!

By the way: Did you know virtually all myths about the EU originate in the UK?

While I don't have any exact figures as far as I am aware the number of deaths by electrocution in Western Europe is quite low per 1000 people. I wouldn't think that the UK's are any worse / better than most other EU countries.

Remember that many other EU countries have far stricter regulation than the UK on a whole range of issues. I don't think it's at all fair to call non-UK European regs "mickey mouse" From a German/Swiss/French/Scandinavian perspective one could equally point at many aspects of the UK system and call it "mickeymouse".

Many British commentators seem to base their view of non-British electrical systems entirely on one bad experience with a French Gite (rented converted farm building) with 1930s wiring or on a very very very cheap holiday apartment in Spain.

However, getting back to the thread, I would be interested to see if damaged ring circuits caused by DIY botching leads to an increased number of house fires. Although, I doubt that data would be as easy to find as deaths due to electrocution.


To give you the Irish 2002 (latest I could find) statistics:

Fatal Accidents invloving electricity : 4
Locations:
Field (Farm): 2
Building under construction : 1
Electrical Substation (indoor) : 1

Voltage level:
380/220V (LV) : 1
10/20kV (MV) : 3

Equipment involved:

Overhead line : 2
Transformer: 1
Flex: 1

Installation Equipment Defects:
Not known / no defect : 4

2001 : 4
Locations:
Reception/Dining/Bedroom : 1
Outhouse (farm) : 1
Field (farm) : 1
Road (fallen line) : 1

Voltage Level:
380/220V (LV) : 2
10/20kV (MV) : 1
> or = 38kV : 1

Equipment involved:
Overhead Line : 2
Cable or Wiring: 1
Fixed Apperatus : 1

Installation Equipment Defects:
Earthing Ineffective : 1
Parts not normally live not earthed : 1
Not Known / No Defect : 2

Total Population 3.9 million people.



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 05-16-2004).]

I'd like to see the facts for that opinion. The Colours of cables in Europe have been the same ad infinitum as far as I am aware, and have certainly not changed in my 21 years in the industry.

Regarding safety...France: Direct Shock Deaths for 2002: 1231 DEAD!!!

France, Spain, Portugal have the worst records in the EU, the best records are certainly across Scandinavia as they have the tightest regulations and very little DIY.

That will all change now we have taken on the East Europeans...I have been their regularly (ex-wife was Lithuanian-Russian), and the standard there is truly shocking!!

Thanks for that, but I have created an even better one than that for the AE3..
www.ae3.org.uk/technical/colour_changes.htm



[This message has been edited by FWL_Engineer (edited 05-16-2004).]

Just to be very picky the statistics given were for England and Wales not the entire UK

England : 49,181,000 (2001)
Wales: 2,903,000 (2001)

= 52,084,000

This would alter the stats a bit as you're out by almost 8 million people.

Scotland : 5,064,000 (2001)
Northern Ireland: 1,689,000 (2001)

There may be some slight shifts in those by 2004 but they shouldn't be too far off.

Where did you get those French stats?!?!

In 1998 in France there were 9 work related deaths due to electricity.

In 1994 : 116 deaths due to electrocution in France (Work or non work related)

Total population of France 57,566,100 (1994)

While it's higher than the UK per head of population it's no where near the figure you quoted!

Where did you get that figure?

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 05-16-2004).]

Regulars will already know my opinion about the EU, but I think we're in danger of straying too far into politics here if we're not careful.

On the harmonized cable issue, I think we can apportion a share of the blame all round. The adoption of blue as neutral throughout most of the Continent and for flexes in the U.K. some 30-odd years ago was a bad decision, in my opinion. Admittedly the U.K. and Ireland were not part of the then-EEC at that time, but if future harmonization was truly in mind, as it must have been, then consideration should have been given to the fact that most British-influenced countries used blue as a phase.

The fact that most European countries then adopted a combination of brown and black for phase colors (i.e. all brown, brown plus 2 blacks, or black plus 2 browns) was another bad move in that it left no phase distinction in the color code.

The U.K. insisted -- rightly, I believe -- that any harmonized scheme must provide for phase identification, but then made the mistake of proposing gray as one of those colors.

We now have a mish-mash of a system which conflicts not only with everybody else's idea of which color should be which conductor but also with our own old/existing system.

I'll echo DJK's question here on the source, as that does sound a very high figure indeed.

Although not specific to electricity, there was a BBC program some time ago which was relating the work safety statistics of the U.K. and France. I seem to recall it being said that worksite accidents in France were no higher than the U.K., despite the fact that France has no direct equivalent of Britain's H.S.E. (Health & Safety Executive).

That 1231 is incorrect..it should have been 121..I didn't see the 3 creep in..Apologies.

The figures come from the French themselves and include all fatal deaths by electrocution in France.

Now whether they have included French territories in that figure I do not know, but from personal experience in France..working..I would not be surprised to find out that it is accurate.

At that rate the probability of getting electrocuted in either the UK or France is pretty miniscule!

The very slightly higher rate in France could be attributed to any number of factors.

The UK has one unique difference. The original system of domestic wiring was so impractical that it had to be completely replaced during the 1950s and 1960s. Older houses in the UK used a vast array of BS546 sockets of at least 3 different and completely incompatable sizes.

British houses wired before the 1950s often had 1 15A socket in the kitchen for the kettle another by the fireplace for the "electric fire" and a few tiny 5A sockets scattered around for lamps and the "wireless" (radio).

By the 1950s these systems were completely inadequate due to the arrival of countless domestic appliences. The sollution was to introduce BS1363 and ring circuits, making re-wiring relatively simple.

On the otherhand, in ALL European countries domestic wiring was always based on radial circuits but the design of sockets and circuits was a little more sensible than BS546 and did not require any drastic changes. "Schuko" and the French grounded outlet have been around for quite a LONG time as have their now phased-out non-grounded counterparts.

The result has been that older wiring has managed to stay in service for much longer as it's often quite adequate and is not incompatable with modern plugs.

Older French houses that have not been rewired will sometimes still have non-grounded outlets in areas that will quite happily accept a 16A CEE 7/7 plug without completing the earth connection. (The later grounded sockets didn't accept the fatter pins of grounded plugs)

I would suspect that accidents caused by Class I appliences being used without an earth connection would account for the very slightly higher rate.

If you walked into a UK house with 1930s/40s wiring you physically wouldn't be able to insert a modern plug.

Compulsary RCDs in most European countries have, however, done a lot to reduce fatalities.

Ireland's fatality rate before the introduction of manditory RCDs in 1980 was substantially higher.

Almost all accidents here are now caused by the "darwin factor".. There's not a lot you can do if someone insists on doing bad DIY work or driving a tractor through 20kV powerlines.

I have some figures now from a scanned HSE report, I'll shrink and crop the images to just the necessary information and post them here for all to see.

I have been intrigued by this so looked into it a bit further today, the greater French death rate is purely Construction site deaths apparently. They still insist on using 230V power tools onsite rather than the UK 110V Centre Tap system (55V+55V).

The Man I spoke to today at the HSE said the French have a better domestic death rate than the UK, but this is down to the lower incidence of DIY in France than the UK.

One area the UK leads Europe is in Power Transmission Deaths. These are Deaths of people comming into contact with Overhead lines, Grid transmission equipment and Railways, apparently these figures are seperate from all other figures right across Europe.

The HSE Guy said that despite efforts by the Railways and the National Grid et al to keep people from trespassing in dangerous areas, it would appear to be an almost uniquely British problem in Europe.

I think this prove the Darwin Theory aptly...A fool who trespasses is soon electrocuted!!

Yeah, like a classmate's brother. At the age of 14 he was bright enough to go to a party and drink himself silly. Later in the evening he and some friends decided to play around with soft guns. Somehow they ended up near a freight railway station and Mr. Super-bright thought he'd climb a railway car to get better aim. Then he came a bit close to the 15kV catenary, it was a damp night... well, it was a very nice funeral!

We're getting a somewhat divergent discussion here about safety in one country versus another, so I've started a new thread to continue this:

Electrical safety in Europe

Thus proving once again that you can take a horse to water..but even they are smart enough to know their limits..unlike some humans!!

High folks,
this looks like a good forum, just joined, hope to be able to contribute in the future.
you appear to have had some cracking topics going. I have my own opinions on this colour change.
Why not make all conductors black force everybody into doing some sort of testing like R1+R2 or is that to radical. Most of the rubbish spoken aboutthis topic is all DIY related. No self respecting spark gives a dam what colour the cables are to start with, he tests and sleeves the cores accordingly. Over the years I have come across alsorts of colours being used on the same circuit especially in industry where machines have been moved and someone has extended the circuit with whatever he/she (politicaly correct) can lay their hands on.

Hi there aland!.
Welcome to to ECN.
Well, aland, we hope you contribute, in the future, thanks for coming here!.

Hi Aland, and welcome to the forum.

That's certainly one way of going about it, although with the mix of systems we'll soon have scattered around the country that will probably have to become the norm anyway.

Don't forget there has been a similar system used on some flexible cables already:- All black cores (except earth) with number identification: 0=neutral, 1,2,3 etc. for phases and other hot lines.

By the way, I once had to try to troubleshoot an Italian-made washing machine. The wiring loom inside was a nightmare to trace. They'd used green/yellow for grounds and blue for neutrals, but everything else was wired in black, so a typical cable bunch had one green/yellow, one blue, and a dozen blacks. Aaarrgggh!

Paul..complaining about the use of blacks in that manner is not politically correct

We're now nearly at the end of June, and I've yet to see a reel of the new cable.

BDC Norwich still has none of it, and the B&Q DIY store racks are still the old colors. The latter has some reels with May stock dates on them now, but whether that's the date it came from the manufacturer or the date they got it in Norwich from the B&Q distribution center, I don't know.

Paul, Wholsalers in the midlands have stocks but not the complete range. I havr writen to ECA magazine expressing my displeasure at the way the whole thing has been organised.
ECA are convinced that the change is going to plan and schedule. Mind you they dont have to shop around trying to get complete sizes of cables to carry out an installation from end to end.
I love administrators who can claim incompetance is a success. By the way Red/ Black cables now carry a 15% surcharge so I am told. Only going to be one winner in all of this!!

It does sound as though it's been badly organized. If you can only get the new colors in some sizes you're thus forced to pay the extra premium to buy everything in the old colors.

For anyone who has just joined this debate, let's point out that the IEE Wiring Regs. now state that new installs may use either the old or the new colors, but not a mixture of both.

The IEE should have stood up for British wiring on this matter, in my opinion. We should have just flat-out told CENELEC and the other committees that we already have a perfectly good system in the U.K. and will not be changing. Too late for that now, I'm afraid.

Paul,

The same applies to most other EU countries, they all had their own perfectly operable systems for many many years.

Ireland's changed over to blue and brown for single phase fixed wiring for sometime and to be quite honest it's absolutely no fuss. Even where it's mixed it's VERY obvious which is which.

where 3 phase is used the new system's equally obvious.

djk, your perfectly correct I have no problem with the change in colurs, to any self respecting spark who uses common sense and TESTS thoughrly I dont think it makes any difference what we use as colours. However when a set of rules / guidlines are laid down by I.E.E and administered by the likes of N.I.C.E.I.C / E.C.A. Ithink they should at least ensure that all the correct equipment is going to be available for use.
My personal opinion is that we in th trade are being ripped off time after time by large manufacturing companies. Lets face it we do not have an awfull lot of choice when it comes to purchaseing quality cable in this country. By that I mean wholsalers dictate what we get. With so much rubbish floating about out there in the market place I for one am always grateful that the cable I get is BASEC approved.It appears to me that at this moment lots of unscrupilouse merchants are off-loading a lot of rubbish and at a premium price I might add.

The harmonised colours will actually cause some price drops by introducing economies of scale too. Although it seems the various different fixed wiring specs, including odd-ball British and Irish standards will remain in force even if the colours of the cores change.

We may have the same colours and measure in mm but if you tried installing UK twin and earth with the undersized ground wire in most of Europe you'd be in trouble. regardless of wheather it's safe / practical or not it's a very odd standard by european norms.

I have never particularly liked the use of the very thin earth. Although, with RCD protection it's enough to cause a trip.

Where an MCB or Fuse is the only protection, I think the ground / earth cable HAS to be large enough to handle the current rated on the breaker. Otherwise, you've a potential fire and shock hazard.

I am very much in favour of ground conductors equally sized with the phase conductors.

I mean, look at the design of british plugs.. HUGE ground pin connected to this weedy little cable ... makes no sense!

Im still waiting for the suppliers to get Brown sleeving in, using heatshrink at the moment.

djk, no doubt the harmonization with cpc will come later. got to keep these guys in a pension. Sorry me being a synic again

I don't doubt that any half-decent electrician will have no trouble with the new colors.

The only place where just seeing the colors might not be immediately obvious is the case of a single-phase sub-feed coming from phase C. IEE Regs. for years have specified that single-phase branch circuits must always use red as the line, no matter what phase they are fed from, but allow a single-phase sub-feeder to use the appropriate phase color up to the final distribution panel.

Thus a single-phase sub-feeder on phase C could have been installed with a blue line and black neutral. Opening a conduit box on the new system would reveal the exact opposite, of course. Granted that as soon as you see which conductor is landed on the neutral it should be pretty obvious.

My point though is that this is yet another example of a change for the sake of "harmonization" when there was really no need to change at all. So we use a different color code to Continental Europe -- So what? I don't see that as a problem.

Agreed on the earth issue. It is somewhat strange that for years we've had reduced protective conductors in cables yet earth pins on plugs that are huge!


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 06-29-2004).]

Time for an update.

BDC in Norwich have now added brown to their range of 6491X cables (single-core for use in conduit), but there's no sign of gray yet. They still don't seem to have 6242Y (twin & earth) in the new colors.

I had another look at B&Q a week or so ago when I was forced to go in there, and they still don't have any of the new cables yet.

How's it progressing in other parts of the country?



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 08-22-2004).]

Rexel Senate have been stocking the new cables ( and mixed-usage lables ) since March/April and are now sold out of all except the least used of the old colours.

I have been using the full range of FTE and single since early May and only have a little 10mm FTE left in old colours.

Seems we are ahead of the game up here for once!!

Things seem to have settled down O.K. here in the Midlands. One small independant Elec wholsaler I use still seems to have quite a stock of old colours in 6491x but all other stuff is available in new colours. Even managed to get 100mts 185mm x 4core new colours with a next day delivery to site. Pretty good I thought. I travel all over the country from time to time and still find the West Mids on of the best places in the country to get materials quickly. Paul it sounds pretty grim where you operate!

What's happening with our antipodean colleagues? Will Australia, New Zealand and South Africa follow suit?

Four years ago South Africa was still red, white and blue for phases.

I was going to mention this in the Aussie/NZ rules thread, but as it's been brought up here.......



Am I missing something elsewhere in AS3000, or is this the only place where any colors are specified?

Is certainly looks as though the days of yellow phase B are numbered in New Zealand.

What's noteworthy here is that the standard doesn't seem to specify colors for phases. Tne British IEE Regs. have explicitly stated that red/yellow/blue shall be used since 1964 (and red/white/blue before that time).

I note also that the alternate "Euro" standard actually states the neutral shall be light blue, as was the original intention here.

Newsflash: The September BDC catalog has just arrived.

They are now listing harmonized 6242Y (2+earth) and 6243Y (3+earth) cables, but only in 1, 1.5, and 2.5mm sizes, yet all the conventional 6242Y/6243Y is now listed as "Available while stocks last."

They seem to have the full-range of harmonized 2, 3, and 4c SWA (armored) in all sizes up to 25mm though, again with old colors listed as "While stocks last."

Meter tails are now brown and blue only -- They've dropped red and black entirely.

6491X (singles for conduit) is now listed as available in red, black, brown, blue, and green/yellow. Have they decided that nobody is going to wire 3-phase in conduit any more?

I really don't understand how this particular place is going about the changeover. It seems to make no sense.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 09-10-2004).]

One thing about these harmonised colours that bugs me a little is that I have yet to see the relevant colours available in tapes for phasing etc...

One thing at a time I suppose...

Paul,
Not sure if I quite get what you mean?.

Yes, Paul, as far as the PoCo that I work for goes, Yellow is non-existant now with new stuff.
All new mains, feeders and the like, all have the White B Phase.
Cable manufacturers here started using white as soon as they found out that a change was in the wind, in fact even before the amendment to the Regs came out.
Just as a small note too, I have seen over the years here, with older Underground cables, Orange was also popular as the colour for the B Phase too, before yellow, so I am told by older folk at the PoCo.

Sorry, I might have been a little cryptic there. What I meant was that this table is the only reference I could find to color coding, and it doesn't explicitly specify the phase colors. Just red, or any color other than black, blue, green, or green/yellow.

The British regs. explicity state that phases A, B, C shall be red, yellow, blue respectively (or brown, black, gray under the new system).

I think the last part of your post about orange as phase B in some installations confirms that you have no specifically defined phase colors, just an accepted convention. Right?