Hi,

now here is another (weird) idea that ties in with my earlier ones. Single sockets next to the light switch have become very popular in recent years, often integrated in a common frame. If you wanted to install very basic electricity in a home, it seems like an easy way would be to use integrated sockets and light switches (surface mounted) instead of standard light switches.

The Brits and Aussies have switches on many socket outlets. Could this little switch be used for switching the ceiling light instead of the socket? The unit will need three terminals: L + N + Lout.

How is the switch designed on the British and Australian socket outlets: Can it be disconnected or is an integral part of the socket?

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 02-25-2004).]

This device is commonly used in bathrooms here in countries that use USA style wiring devices & practices.

Nowadays it's supposed to be GFCI-protected if used in a bathroom:

[img]http://images.lowes.com/product/032664/032664161001.jpg?wid=158&cvt=jpeg[/img]

The switch and socket are independent devices but depending on how it's wired you can have the switch control just a lightbulb, just the socket or both. The third screw on the left side is a ground (earth) terminal.

I don't like them. They're expensive to replace and it only gives you one socket. This example costs almost anywhere from US$7.00 to $10.00 at D-I-Y sheds and hardware stores.

A regular duplex receptacle can be had from anywhere from 50 cents for the really cheap & nasty "residential grade" garbage, to US$1.50 or $2.00 for a good-quality heavy-duty "commercial grade" device.

Industrial and hospital-grade devices cost more, naturally but the "commercial" devices are an excellent price/quality compromise. And it allows you to plug in two appliances at the same time, so you're kind of minimizing the potential use of usually bad-quality triple-taps.

It would be better for the end user to have basic, easily obtainable and replaceable devices that don't cost much.

Keep in mind that if something breaks, the typical customers you have in mind are more likely to want to tackle the repair job themselves because they probably can't afford to hire a "licenced professional."

I have a Malaysian-made BS-546 5-Amp socket with a switch. It's a self contained unit mounted on a plate and the connections between the hot side of the socket and the switch are concealed with a non-removable plastic cover.

The switch only controls the socket....and there's only one set of terminals that are used to attach wires to the socket.

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 02-25-2004).]

Excellent reply Sven! That was exactly what I was looking for. But you are right. With such a price tag attached, I can scrap this idea.

If I go for standard components, the choice would be a standard socket and a standard switch in a combination frame in a surface box.

Ironically, the cheapest way of wiring could very well be to use grounded devices and cables. It seems like 1.0 mm2 T&E is about the cheapest that cable can be had. The grounded schuko sockets are no more expensive than the ungrounded, due to the difference in sales volume.

If I put the pieces together:

(Prices from a Polish manufacturer, in zloty. Just for a change )

Double box 12.38
Double frame 1.60
Socket 6.77
Switch 7,17
Button 3,50

Total: 31,42 zloty

As Sven said, British Standard (1363 & 546) switched sockets are a composite unit with only 1 set of supply terminals: L, N & E.
They can't be altered on site to use the switch for any other purpose.
Modular devices like the Polish ones you described are available here, but are very expensive compared to the standard switched sockets.

I don't know about elsewhere but Light switches in Ireland now have to be mounted no lower than 900 mm and no higher than 1200 mm. Sockets are generally higher than they used to be too.

The idea being to make it easier for disabled / movement impared people to use electrical appliences. Basically you should be able to switch on a light or insert a plug comfortably from a wheelchair in any new building.

Mounting the whole lot on one unit at 900 mm might actually save a lot of time in some rooms...

e.g. in a hallway you could easily provide a couple of sockets along side the light switches for general purposes. Vacuuming etc..

Obviously the sockets and lighting would have to be on different circuits but it would save cutting a lot of holes in the wall

We have this: not flush mounted: http://www.niko.be/images/lijntek/gif/1132416.gif
or this flush mounted: http://www.niko.be/images//lijntek/gif/1222706.gif

these links are also interesting (pdf) http://www.niko.be/images/PC-019-03_12LR.pdf
http://www.niko.be/images/PC-019-03_06LR.pdf
http://www.niko.be/images/PC-019-03_03LR.pdf

You can chek the prices at www.niko.be u can select the site in English.

[This message has been edited by Belgian (edited 02-26-2004).]

C-H,
The switches we have in our Socket-Outlets are permanently linked into the socket wiring and cannot be removed.
But we do have socket-outlets here that have an extra switch installed into the socket plate.
Here's one below:



The switch in the middle of the plate is used to control a seperate circuit.
We use them here, in kitchens, where a Dishwasher or under-sink Waste Disposal unit needs to be switched on and off and this method saves on extra plates, etc.
Also, the switches themselves can be replaced with an Engraved type which could read D/W or LIGHT or whatever!.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 02-26-2004).]

Great response to this topic!

Djk,

I believe there is a requirement in the Swedish building regs to have a socket for vaccum cleaning at about a meter above floor. Typically this is mounted below the switch. As the same circuit is used for both lights and sockets, wiring is pretty straightforward.

Belgian,

that was exactly what I was looking for! Is this device common? By the way, it was some time since I saw your posts last. Nice to know you are still hanging around!

Mike,
Wow! That thing looks rather funny, but it too would do.

Over here, and in the UK lights and sockets are normally completely seperate circuits

Lighting circuits are radial and usually protected by a 6A - 10A MCB/Diazed Fuse depending on the wiring used and the lighting load.

The only "semi-acceptable" way to connect a light to a socket circuit is via a fused connection unit carrying a fuse rated 3A, 5A or up to 13A depending on load and cabling.

In theory any touchable Class I light fitting or lighting socket should be connected to an RCD too.

It makes combination light/socket plates rather more complicated!

Newer consumer units / distribution panels have a lot more than the old single 30mA RCD on the socket circuits, water heaters etc.. manditory since 1980.

Belgian,

I couldn't find a price for the product on the Niko site.

The flush mounted model costs 10.08 euro plus vat. The Not flush mounted one, is only for export, since the earth is for shucko plugs systems only, so I can't get the price. You could email niko. They are very helpfull. Ask Sven. He got free samples sent to him in the usa from niko!

[This message has been edited by Belgian (edited 02-27-2004).]

Sorry to be so late joining this thread. I had a busy day yesterday and didn't get time to post.

According to the universal currency converter at www.xe.com the Zloty is worth about U.S. 25 cents at the moment, or around 0.20 Euro, so the whole assembly listed by C-H comes in at under $8.

As the others have mentioned, the integral switches with sockets here don't have separate terminals, and the modular fittings are much more expensive than the normal residential all-in-one devices.

It's possible to buy boxes which accept two regular single-gang devices side-by-side. however.





http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/AP636.html
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/GU9D25.html

From a U.K. perspective, I know that people would find it odd to have a socket next to a light switch. It's an arrangement I've seen in old stone houses in France (makes for easier wiring), and a lot of Brits just find it weird.

Although it's normal for lights to be wired on separate circuits here, there's no real reason why it's absolutely necessary, and in fact the IEE Regs. allow lights on a radial circuit of up to 15/16A.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 02-27-2004).]

In Pauls second link there is the marketing depertments description of the plain white box:

Quality fit and style are the very essence of the new stylish range of Ultimate range of white wall wiring accessories. Combining the very latest design aesthetics, with many time saving, practical features for the installer.

I've noticed fuses on some old French sockets and light switches. Like a small circular plastic disk that screws out on the switch plate.


Why were they used?

On the seperate plates issue in the UK/Ireland it's also better that the lights don't go out when you plug in a kettle or an an iron with damp contacts



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 02-27-2004).]

I won't argue that an individual circuit for each socket would be better, but the improvement has to be compared to the cost. I blow a fuse every two years. (No metaphor intended ) Many houses have probably never had a fuse blow or breaker trip. Blackouts are more common.

I've rarely blown a fuse or tripped an MCB but have definitely tripped an RCD due to a minor ground fault due to a wet kettle or iron

Djk,
Usually in behind the switches that I posted
the single switch is fed from a totally seperate circuit, as in the case where the single switch is used to switch a Lighting circuit.
But, there is a un-written rule here, with things like this, where you could have 2 seperate phases (400V) inside the one flushbox, that you should mark the plate (under the cover) accordingly.
A lot of people have been caught out like this, especially when a nicked 1mm wire breaks behind the switch, when the plate is removed.

combined switch&outlet is very usual german style. normally in every room of a house right next to the entrance door there's a multiple frame with one or more switches and belwo one or more outlets. years ao the switch was at at about 3.5ft from ground and the outlet was below at 1ft from ground.

later they got combined, i guess so you dont have to go that far down for plugging sth.

i only found this one pic, thats an older switch style from the 80s



the wall boxes are all same sized, and most switch/outlet combinations are universal sized for the frames. so you can put a receptacle, a single or double switch and so on anywhere into the frame and in every right angled rotation.

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 02-28-2004).]

That's true, but unfortunately so many houses here have only a single RCD feeding the whole installation that it happens anyway.

Andy,

thanks for the picture. This is the type of combination the parts I listed above add up to. (The box is a surface mounted one, but that doesn't really make any difference)

Paul, apart from some very recent installations most houses here would only have an RCD on the sockets and waterheaters.

I always find that kinda weird as most people seem to get shocks from light bulb holders! In my experience anyway.

So when the RCD trips the lights stay on

C-H,

our on-wall boxes look the same, but we dont have metal ones, only plastic.

The in-wall boxes are round and made of plastic. Only bigger junction boxes are rectangular.




these are special double inwall-boxes. but there are also single ones that fit to each other in the right distance.

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 03-01-2004).]

That's the way it is often done on TN-S or TN-C-S (PME) systems here these days, but the TT earthing which is still common in rural areas necessitates RCD protection on all circuits. The majority of such homes I see in this area still just use a single RCD rather than splitting the loads.

i think its a good thing to have several gfcis/rcds for several parts of the house, but thats mostly a cost factor.

i'd be happy if rain on my christmas lights wouldnt directly darken my linvingroom...