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Posted By: Texas_Ranger Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/25/03 06:01 PM
Found this on a website for PC water cooling supplies.

[Linked Image from shop.erfrier.net]

Scary, eh? At least they stated "Grounding conductor is not supplied!"
Posted By: :andy: Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/25/03 07:12 PM
what sense should this bring?

i know the receptacle, i have these in white. they're DIY, so i guess the guys from that shop make them. i bet thats a VDE violation.
The very same company offers a pump control that switches on the cooling pump whenever the computer is switched on. This control box only has a Euro outlet, but obviously some type of pump has a contour plug, so they invented that ingenious masterpiece.
Posted By: djk Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/25/03 11:40 PM
That's pretty dangerous. Why not just fit 3-core flex and a grounded schuko plug? It's one of the things that I like about the UK/Ireland system; it presumes, correctly, that most people are blissfully unaware of what a ground pin is actually for and makes it non-optional. I'm not a big fan of 2 pin plugs as I've seen endless problems with people ignoring the need for grounding either by fitting 2-pin ungrounded rewirable plugs to 3-core flex or by plugging schuko/french grounded plugs into non-grounded outlets.

Likewise in the US system I've seen plugs with their ground pins cut off so that they could be inserted into an old ungrounded outlet!


To the average person the ground pin (or contacts in most of europe) are just an optional extra. I bet that most people in schuko countries think that they're simply to retain the plug in the socket!

From what I've seen the systems used in the UK/Ireland are the only ones in the world, perhaps due to their relatively late introduction, in which grounding isn't an afterthought. There simply is no non-grounded plug as the ground pin is required to open the socket shutters (and has been since very early versions of BS546 (round pin) sockets) way back in the 1930s/40s perhaps paul UK might know when it was introduced?) and unlike much of the rest of Europe (and north america) where older installations often contain 2-pin outlets, non-grounded sockets just don't exsist at all in the UK or Ireland (and presumably in the other countries which use BS1363 as standard)
Posted By: pauluk Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/26/03 03:22 PM
Shutters were part of the BS1363 specification from the outset (late 1940s), after which they became the norm on BS546 as well. I'm not sure if there were some shuttered BS546 devices before then, however (there are none of any of the old 1930s sockets I have).

Shutters weren't universal on BS546 adapters. I have several dating from the 1950s, and even early 1960s which have a non-shuttered BS546 5A socket on the front.

Of course, none of the two-pin, non-grounding sockets ever had shutters.

Quote
non-grounded sockets just don't exsist at all in the UK
It's probably fair to say that that's the case in 99.9% of homes these days, but old two-pin sockets survived for a remarkably long time.

There were certainly still a large number around in older houses when I was a kid in the 1970s, and even as late as the 1980s I remember seeing some (typically where new rings and BS1363 outlets had been installed but the house still had its original lighting circuits, including 5A sockets).
Posted By: Hutch Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/26/03 04:12 PM
djk said ...
Quote
I'm not a big fan of 2 pin plugs as I've seen endless problems with people ignoring the need for grounding either by fitting 2-pin ungrounded rewirable plugs to 3-core flex or by plugging schuko/french grounded plugs into non-grounded outlets

When visiting Australia for the first time I went looking for two-pin plugs for my laptop and cell phone chargers (both two-core) but couldn't find any - only three pin ones. Could any of antipodean members say whether this is Oz's answer to the problem djk highlighted above. Molded on 2 pin plugs are fine but not rewirables?
No rewireable ungrounded plugs here either. Crimp-on Euro plugs are very rare.
It's hard to tell from the picture, but to me it looks like they even removed the grounding contacts. Reminds me of the good old homemade 1970ies extension cord with Schuko plug and trailing socket but only 2x0.75mm2 zip cord. Go figure...
The trailing socket looks like the typical Conrad electronics type that goes for 1.50. I have a bright red one, and they feel real cheap.
As a side note, looking around a house that's being renovated I found a 1960ies or 1970ies trailing socket. Around the holes for the pins it has a porcelaine insert, so arcing won't destroy the socket. Now _that's_ what I call solid work! In that house some genius had hooked it up to a piece of NYM 2x1.5mm2 (a black and a grey wire inside) dangling down from a wall sconce. Talk about fixed wiring...
Paul uk

do you remember the last MK range when they change the mechanism to open the shutter, from the earth pin pushing the shutter down, to the gaget that worked when the live and neutral pins were inserted..

if you remember if the earth pin was missing off the plug top it would still go in the socket.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/26/03 07:38 PM
Ah yes, the new shutter design.

The old trick of opening the shutter with a meter probe in the earth contact and then transferring to live and neutral has to be changed. It took a little while to master the technique for the new shutters: Probes on opposing corners of live and neutral slots, then equal pressure.

One problem with the "wall wart" power supplies so common these days is that some of them have a plastic "earth" pin. These seem to break off quite easily if handled roughly, but the unit will still fit a socket with this new shutter nechanism.
The only time I ever had problems with wall warts here was when i tried to hook up my stereo system It's a component system and has far more plugs than I have sockets available, so I resorted to an ancient ungrounded 3way adaptor. Probably it's never been too awfully solid, but now it's slightly worn, and getting the wall wart of the record player to work can be a bit tricky. Al the other Euro plugs (but just plugs, not wall warts) work well with that thing.
Heck, talk about stupid furniture. I got 4 wall sockets, but I can only use one, because the darn ikea stereo rack covers up all the others. I was bright enough to plug a 5way power strip into one of the four before moving the rack to it's definite location, but all others are useless...that's why people use scary extension cords and adaptors.
Posted By: djk Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/26/03 10:30 PM
MK have had that type of shutter in use for quite a while and because MK fittings get used quite a lot here in Ireland you'll see plenty of them around.

The old schuko outlets here were unshuttered (dating back to the 1930s in some cases) but the odd BS546 outlet that's survived would be almost always MK and almost always switched and shuttered although i have seen some very old 5A ones of an unknown brand that were unshuttered. I've never seen an old BS546 2-pin socket here.

If any system needed shutters it's BS546 15A a child could definitely insert a finger and touch a live part without the need for any tools.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/27/03 12:49 AM
Hutch said:
Quote
When visiting Australia for the first time I went looking for two-pin plugs for my laptop and cell phone chargers (both two-core) but couldn't find any - only three pin ones.
You can only get 3 pin re-wireable plug tops here in NZ and Australia, I have no idea why this is so.
But I think it may have something to do with polarisation of appliances that don't have an Earth conductor (ie: Double Insulated), like you said, two pin plugs only come as the pre-moulded type, but there is nothing to stop a person from buying a 3 pin plug and using the Phase and Neutral terminals only.
Posted By: Hutch Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/27/03 04:18 AM
Trumpy,

You are basically saying that Joe Public has to fit an earthing plug regardless. Class 1 versus class 2.

As I can see, it doesn't stop him messing up the polarisation though.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/27/03 05:07 AM
Hutch,
Yes that is correct, either ways, you have to have an earth pin on our rewireable plugs.
Sure, this will not prevent the consumer from transposing the polarity of the plug wires, but nothing short of banning people that don't know what they are doing, from fitting plugs to cords, will prevent this!. [Linked Image]
Reminds me of the discussion whether you could fit Schuko plugs to Class 2 appliances. There aren't any rewireable Euro plugs, only some crimp-on types, and no rewireable contour plugs at all, so most people just fit a Schuko plug. However, some experts from Germany said that's illegal because that plug has exposed screws and hence isn't fully double-insulated. Besides they said someone might go and take the 2conductor-cord with the Schuko plug and fit it to a class 1 appliance. So they suggested using plugs with halves that snap together and remove the grounding contacts. Would be equivalent to cutting off the earth pin of a US or AS/NZ plug.
Keeps getting better and better!

[Linked Image from shop.erfrier.net]

From the very same web site. 230V open inside a PC case.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/27/03 06:56 PM
Quote
Besides they said someone might go and take the 2conductor-cord with the Schuko plug and fit it to a class 1 appliance. So they suggested using plugs with halves that snap together and remove the grounding contacts.

And what's to stop somebody taking that 2-wire cord with the ground-less Schuko plug and fitting it to a class I appliance?

This sounds like the typical bureaucratic "solution." Identify a problem that doesn't really exist and then come up with a response that achieves nothing! [Linked Image]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/27/03 07:42 PM
It just confuses people more and encourages kludges because they can't find proper spares and so they have to "make do".

Would be simpler for the end user to keep in mind: If the flex has two conductors, it needs a two-pin plug. If it's got three conductors it needs a grounded plug (three pins or two pins plus grounding clips).

Idiots are idiots and no amount of bureaucratic statements, resolutions and mandates are going to prevent such people from injuring themselves.

I know I would be extremely irritated by the fact that I would have to jump through hoops and bounce from store to store to look for the proper replacement for the damaged Europlug on my TV, table lamp or other light duty appliance without having to affix a clunky, heavy Schuko plug.

As far as the fear of someone connecting a crimp-on Europlug to a three-conductor flex, I really can't see how anyone would be able to do that. The conductors are thicker, and so is the insulation. You wouldn't be able to make it all fit and close the plug. I've tried it...it won't work with the plugs I've used.
It does work with the type of crimp-on Euro plugs that are available here. i once made up a 5m Euro extension cord using round 2x1mm2 flex which is actually thicker than 3x0.75.
It doesn't seem to be much of an irritation to most people. They just fit Schuko plugs to anything, and it isn't a problem for me either. it's only a problem for some of the weird pros running around at de.sci.ing.elektrotechnik. There are some serious bureaucrats there. Their minds are sometimes worse than the old cliche of Jewish trade practice.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/27/03 10:30 PM
Maybe I have only a passing familiarity with Continental practice, but I just don't see any problem with fitting a standard Schuko plug to a double-insulated appliance.

It's nonsense like this that results in people ignoring advice of much greater importance -- Such as not to connect a 3-wire cord to a two-pin plug and just leave the ground wire hanging loose!
Posted By: djk Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/27/03 11:01 PM
I can't see any reason why connecting a 2 core wire to a grounded schuko plug would be a problem either!

If a CEE 7/IV (Schuko), CEE 7/V (French) or CEE 7/VII (Combination of the the two) plug is mated with a modern grounded schuko or french socket outlet there is absolutely no problem. No potentially live exposed screws and no potential of contacting the live pins as the plug is being inserted.

HOWEVER...

If someone decideds to plug any of the above plugs into a non-grounded socket outlet there is a risk that you can touch the live pins (as its not recessed and the pins are unsheathed) (Same for contour plugs).

But the argument that you shouldn't connect a 2-core flex to a schuko plug is ridiculous.

------------------

Personally, I think that the whole CEE 7 system is over complicated and puts convenience and backwards compatability before safety. It would be fine if every outlet was recessed and grounded but as we all know that's simply not the case in many places.

There are many cases where a grounded schuko plug connected to a Class I applience can be mated with a non grounded socket or a socket in a country that uses a similar pin configuration but a grounding pin (Italy and Denmark for example)

To the average person if you plug something in and it works you don't really go "oh dear! It's not grounded!" It just works perfectly until one day something goes wrong and you end up getting 230V up the arm possibily in an installation without an RCD.

I have never understood the rational behind the use of grounding clips (or the French pin) rather than 3 pins. At least with 3 pins if the ground pin is present you physically cannot insert the plug into a non grounded outlet. I would therefore consider the Italian, Danish and swiss systems far superiour in terms of how they address grounding. The exsistance of CEE 7/7 plugs that happen to fit these outlets without making contact with the ground is the only thing that makes them dangerous.

I think in many ways the UK had the right idea when it adopted something totally different. (Bearing in mind that once common BS546 5A socket wasn't too different to modern danish standards, you could easily plug in a schuko plug)

As did the swiss, their recessed outlets won't mate with schuko eliminating this problem.

And if you try to force a schuko plug into a BS1363 socket you'll break the face plate the pins are substantially too fat to go in.

I would be in favour of the EU banning CEE 7 completely and going for something totally different that would satisify the UK and Irish athorities, Danes, Swiss etc..

I wonder how many electrocutions could be attributed to lack of grounding? (Putting national pride aside you have to admit this system is not exactly safe!)
---

Also bare in mind that I live in one of the only countries to have used schuko but dropped it in favour of something different (BS1363).

Back in the 1950s the technical committees here seem to have decided that we needed to simplify the ridiculous number of connectors that were in use and standardise on one sold safe system. BS1363 was the obvious choice given our proximity to the UK. Schuko wasn't considered as it had too many earthing problems (i.e. class I and class II plugs) and was backward compatable with older less safe versions which were still in use at the time.

Previously we had:
Schuko (1920-WWII) (most were grounded and recessed but some others were not)
BS546 (2A, 5A, 15A grounded) WWII - mid 50s.

So a typical home could have easily had 4 different types of outlets!

From the mid 1950s onwards BS1363 was the prefered system and began to replace the older systems and by the 1960s it was established as the only standard recognised in the wiring regs. In the 1970s it was given legal recognition. IS401 = plug IS411 = socket (switched/nonswitched)

Schuko is almost completely gone, any remaining socket outlets are usually just relics that were too difficult to remove from a wall/panel so were left in place but haven't been connected for many many years. BS546 hung around a little longer but is an extremely rare beast these days.

Schuko installations for specific purposes like hotel rooms (where it is fed via a 13A spur and located alongside a normal Irish socket on a panel) are probabally not legal although the owners could argue that it was simply a fixed adaptor and not intended for normal general use.

The other 2 systems are only still legally recognised to ensure that any spares/replacement plugs etc conform to modern standards.



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-27-2003).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/27/03 11:25 PM
Just to clarify, I have no problem with fitting a grounded plug to a 2-wire Class 2 appliance from a utilitarian point of view.

However, aesthetically, it just looks wrong and seems silly when you can put in something more compact and tidy looking. (big groan and eyeroll here [Linked Image] ) -- not to mention that, at least in the USA, a tiny 2-pin plug for a lamp or radio is usually half the price (a dollar and change or so) of a 3-pin heavy duty plug (three dollars or so) for a refrigerator or a drill. Economics also come into play here.

Of course I'm keeping in mind the scenario of the little dresser lamp with the BS-546 15 amp or BS-1363 13 amp plug hanging from the length of thin zip cord or whatever. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-27-2003).]
Posted By: djk Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/27/03 11:35 PM
What about a little dresser lamp with a big blue CeeForm plug [Linked Image] I've seen a small radio connected to one of those beasts!
Posted By: pauluk Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/28/03 05:57 PM
CEEform for a radio or table lamp???!!! [Linked Image]

That I'd like to see!
Posted By: :andy: Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/28/03 08:30 PM
against every posts, the adaptor mentioned in the top posts does 2 BIG violations:

1. Allows to use Appliances that NEED grounding without a ground connection

2. and even worse:
Allowes to connect loads up to 16A on a Euro plug thats certified for 2,5 A !!!!!!!

no speaking over this, no excuses, thats a NO NO NO.

i've seen the slotcard steering too. what do they think???
Some guy will unmount this card in use and touch another card with the soldering pins of the 230V terminals. and BOOM. another diy worker that trusted stuff made by idiots!

edit: seems like there's a plastic cover over the soldering parts.
anyways, there is no touch protection at the terminal screws, at the fuse and at the slotplate socket.
and this one violates the protection classes 1 and 3 the PC is normally made, grounded metal casing for the psu and safety low voltage for all accessable hardware.
over all: nothing good. so many casemodders and pc diy workers out there that dont have a clue on such things

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-28-2003).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/28/03 09:52 PM
Andy, I'm sorry, but if anyone is working on a computer with such a device and leave the machine plugged in and manage to touch across the 220 volt mains, they deserve what they get.

Rule number one of disassembling electric appliances.

UNPLUG THEM FIRST BEFORE OPENING!!!!!

We can't continue to protect people from themselves and their stupidity.

That doesn't excuse the fact that the device should be in a plastic case or insulated metal box to protect surrounding electronic components (other cards) that may be mounted too closely and could possibly short circuit.

It does, however, seem to me that the card is bolted to a sheet of plastic underneath. Look closely at the edges. That may be of some protection. Just don't go poking around the top side!!!

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-28-2003).]
No Sven, that's not right. There are even recommendations to do computer works live, 'cause it ensures the case is grounded. And if you haven't got such bloody idiots messing around you can be pretty sure any dangerous voltage is well enclosed within the power supply. However, a PC is about the _only_ thing I'd open live.
Andy, you pointed out the most serious issue about the cord! It's probably only wired with 0.75mm2 cord, so try to plug in a nice 16A load and you ain't gonna need no heating any more.
Posted By: :andy: Re: Yikes! Dangerous equipment for sale! - 10/29/03 07:17 PM
i bet its only 0.75mm². thats not the prob, on this short lenght nothing should happen, but the pins and inside connectors of the plug are made for the printed-on 2.5A.
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