ECN Forum
Posted By: :andy: Some german electrical info - 10/18/03 02:39 PM
Hi there,

i am an electronics engineer from germany, just signed in at your board.

Perhaps somebody is interested in some main facts of german electric installation.

voltage is 230V to Neutral (220 until about 10 years ago) at 50 Hz, and 400V between phases.

cable colors:

Phase 1 - black
Phase 2 - brown
Phase 3 - black (violet in some rail systems for fluorescent lamps)
Neutral - blue
Ground - Green/Yellow striped

the use of this is given everywhere, if not a home-worker has installed his stuff badly himself. An electrician would never use different colors.

When you have cut a 5-conductor cable, you can find out which black wire is L1 and L3. L1 is between blue and Green-yellow. the other black wire next to brown is then L3.

Unlike in the US, in Germany the Ground wire in a standard installation cable must be insulated and the same AWG as the other wires!
Thinner ground wire is only allowed off big diameters over 70mm² (thicker than AWG1).

A few basics if anyone's interested

Stranded wires are not allowed for fixed installation!! We use only solid copper wire, less common AL for >80A or so.
If stranded wire is used for Industrial controls, in small equipment... the use of "Wire end sleeves" (dont know the word), small metallic pipes that are crimped over the stranded copper to protect it from being damaged by a clamp. Some Cage Clamp systems (Wago, Phoenix) dont need the sleevings.

Standard Diameter for Schuko Receptacles and Lights is 1,5mm², AWG15. Fusing is, depending on the lenght and Way of installation (In/on wall, in thermal insulation walls), normally 16 A, with MCBs for Overload and short-circuiut protection. So you can get 3680 Watts from one outlet!

Bigger outlets are: CEE or CEKON in 3-Phase 16A, 32A and 63A.

Safety Regulations and testing are very hard, and therefor the Quality is pretty good.

RCD (i think they are called GFCI in the US) are permitted for bathrooms and kitchens. The RCD integrated in a receptacle is very unusual here, mostly there is a RCD in the breaker panel. And overall, mostly there is a 3-Phase Master RCD for the whole house / one per floor.
RCD trip current must be 30mA or lower.

There is no metal casing used in the house installation! Only for extreme industrial use. All Panels, Receptacle and connection boxes as well as the tubes between them are plastic.


A house is standardly supplied with 4x 16mm² = AWG 5. 3-Phase and combined Neutral/Ground.
Fusing in the House at the Annexe box (right word??) is normally 3x 50 or 63A. Down-fused at the meter to 3x35A. Meters are in-house here. The 50 or 63A are melting fuses, they are permitted in the house, to trip if a MCB should fail in case of a short-circuit. the meter-fuses are partially becoming breakers in between.

The neutral is connected to Earth at the house, and split into Neutral and Ground for the Power panel(s).

Every conducting part must be touch-protected! Every Switch or Receptacle clamp, every breaker, you wont be able to touch a live part in a well made installation. Breakers are mounted on a DIN rail and supplied by a 3-Phase-rail (insulated). this has alternating L1, L2, L3, L1... coming out in a fork form, that is screw-clamped to the Breaker. Line is always on bottom, load on top. RCD's line is on top, load on bottom. So you can go rightaway from the RCD to the breakers with a 3-phase-rail.


If anyone is interested in pictures, i can upload some (Outlet&Switch fixtures, Breaker and Meter panels, Connection boxes...)

now i hope i didnt write all this for nothing
greetings. I wrote as good as i knew, but all info is without guarantee



[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-18-2003).]
Posted By: Pinemarten Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 12:26 AM
Welcome to the board.
I have worked with German and Euro equipment for years, and I am curious about a few things:

What is the minimum size allowed for industrial control conductors? Ours (Canada)is 16AWG, and some terminals seem a little small.

On low voltage DC control circuits (24VDC), I have devices that have a blue and a brown wire. Which is positive and which is negative?

I am impressed with your style of schematics, after I learned how to read them, I found them easier to deal with than our ladder logic. The grid/page references to relay contacts are very quick to deal with in a hurry (trouble shooting).

Do you have CAD programs for 'digitizing' our old photocopies of old photocopies?

I am still trying to find a good German/English technical dictionary for millwrights and electricians.
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 12:50 AM
hi,

which kind of industrial conductors do you mean? 120/230V or low voltage?

for 230V, here the minimum is 0,75mm² = right between AWG 18 and 20, so you should use 18. this is allowed to be fused at 16 Amps for short distances in controlling cabinets and power panels (dont have the exact lenght in mind, i guess it was 1,5 meters, 5 feet?).

for 24V, you can go as small as you want if you proper fuse it. I do a lot of work on 24V with inductive sensors and so on, and these are colored:

Brown =24v,
Blue =0V,
Black=Signal.

We only use cad programs to make new schematics, but i dont work on them. all i can do in this area is making PCBs on eagle.

whats about the ladder logic? i dont know anything about that system or what it looks like. could you link me any image of that?
do you mean a schematic for industrial control, or one for microelectronics?

good night (its 2:50 am here now...)
andy
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 02:50 AM
:andy: said:

Quote
the use of "Wire end sleeves" (dont know the word), small metallic pipes that are crimped over the stranded copper

I think they're called "ferrules" in English. At least that's what one of my catalogues calls them....

Little metal sleeves that go over the ends of stripped stranded conductors....right?
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 09:56 AM
right, for a search of "ferrule" i get these.

[Linked Image from altechcorp.com]

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 11:53 AM
Hi Andy! MY first colleague here from a German-speaking Country! I'm from Austria.
On the stranded wire issue: Flex is not permitted for fixed wiring, but stranded is, for cross sections of 10mm2 and up (feindrähtig).
The fuses we're talking about are the good old Diazed or Neozed.
There are some metal panels, but they're rather rare and they don't have to be grounded (or at least those I've seen aren't). Here in Austria main fuse boxes and meter enclosures are always metal (either galvanized or painted dark grey). Those only take a meter, no main fuses, branch circuit fuses, etc. like some German meter enclosures do.
Ferruels also shoulöd be used whereever a flex is connected to a plug, appliance, etc. Back in the old days sparkies used to tin the ends, but that has caused some fires.
Noch was: Wenn du Probleme mit was englischem hast, kurze fremdsprachige Diskussionen sind hier erlaubt!
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 12:23 PM
Guten Tag :andy:, und Wilkommen nach ECN. Sie sind die erste aus Deutschland.

(Hope I got that right - You know how hopeless we Brits are with languages [Linked Image]).

Quote
Phase 1 - black
Phase 2 - brown
Phase 3 - black (violet in some rail systems for fluorescent lamps)
That's an interesting use of two phase colors the same but the third different.

I assume Germany is all set to adopt the new CENELEC-recommended phase colors (Black, brown, gray) in the near future. The U.K. will be switching to those in a couple of years.

Quote
Stranded wires are not allowed for fixed installation!! We use only solid copper wire,
Do you mean you use solid even for the larger sizes, such as 6 or 10 sq. mm?

In the U.K. standard cables are solid in the 1.0, 1.5, and 2.5 sizes, then stranded for 4mm and larger. For individual wires (for conduit use) the 2.5 size is available in both solid and stranded.

Quote
If anyone is interested in pictures, i can upload some
Photos are always welcome! You can either link to an existing URL, or if you e-mail photos to me I'll upload them onto ECN's server for you.
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 01:26 PM
hi again everyone.

@TexasRanger: for in-panel or industrial control cabinets, we use stranded (mehrdrähtig oder feindrähtig) wires with ferrules up to big AWGs.

with saying there is only solid wire allowed, i meant for the normal in-wall installations, to receptacles etc. we dont do flexible or stranded wires in walls.

Big cables, from 16mm² or bigger, are "mehrdrähtig", for example the 16mm² usually is stranded of 7 2,3mm² solid wires. thats for the flexibility, the 10mm² is the biggest solid cable used in fixed installations, and one solid conductor is very hard to bend.

@Pauluk: Except of making me female, this was good [Linked Image] [Linked Image] -der- erste aus deutschland

the phase colors: as said, theres this small rule with that you can find out which one is L1 and L3. but not everybody does it this way, so you always have to check the phase rotation...

a unique color code with 3 differend colors would be good. i would prefer the violet in this case, because this is used nowhere else here. Back in time (30 years), gray was used fopr neutral here which could bring some more confusion in. Our house is still wired with the old code which is

L1 black
L2 black
L3 blue (now neutral)
N gray
Groudnd red.

i dont know how they differenced the two black canles back in these days.

Regarding the solid wires, please read the above to ranger. In walls always the most solid available, bigger that 16mm² big stranded for easier bending, but not fine stranded.

i'll see what amount of webspace i have left. whats the size limit for emailing to you?

greetings and have a nice sunday
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 01:49 PM
picture, only some things i found laying around.

[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de]

top: Fine stranded (hochflexibel) cable (this one's for Car Audio power) 10mm². We use this only for automotive or for constantly moved cables, in moving cable chains on machines ect.)

second: Stranded (Feindrähtig) 6mm² cable, with Ferrule pressed on. This is used for industrial controls, supplying breakers in a home breaker panel (bridge from RCD to breaker) etc. carries 35 to 40A depending on installation type. You can see that the clamps screw has cut into the ferrule, without it might have cut the thin copper.

third: 1,5mm² AWG15 solid (starr). this is the wire for in-wall and on-wall (3, 5 or more in a cable) supplying switches, receptacles and so on. carries 16A.

Bottom: Biggest solid cable for fixed installation (10mm²). Carries 50A depending on type of installtion.

i'm sorry i could not find some big stranded (mehrdrährig) wire as the told 16² with 7 conductors. gonna get som pieces from work tomorrow.


Cables:
[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de]

top: 2* AWG18 / 0,75mm² cable for low power units without ground as TV, VCR, desk lamps using Euro Plugs (up to 2,5A) ...
This is also allowed for Hairdryers up to 2000W with a limit of the cable lenght. Then uses Schuko-like plug without grounding.

middle: 3*1,5mm² Cable for extension cords or high power units, up to 16A.

Bottom: Standard NYM cable 3*1,5mm² (AWG 15) for On and in-wall installation. this is only for fixed install and may not be used moveable.

last pic, connection of wall wiring. Wirenuts are very rare here, there were used brass clamps made of a cube of brass with a hole through, and a screw from one side that clamps the wires (fully isolated), but during the last years these have come up:
[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de] . You just push the wire in and it is held by a strong, long-lasting metal spring. there is metal under the wire too, you cant see it from the top. This can be loaded to the full possible load of the wire. to remove a wire, you have to pull and turn it a few times.

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: PaulCornwall Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 01:55 PM
Hi Andy

what part of Germany do you live in??

I have some friends in Berlin.

When ever i have been to Germany your cable system looks like flex, is this the case?

Do you still allow the socket outlet in the bathroom?
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 02:00 PM
Hi PaulCornwall,

i live in Bavaria. Which cable system do you mean is flex?

Outlets in bathroom are allowed, but there are specified areas where that is not allowed. (next to showers, tubs, there are exact distances, dont have these in mind) and a RCD with trip current <30mA is prescribed for the bathroom.
Posted By: C-H Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 03:05 PM
Andy,
just looking at that 10 mm2 solid wire makes my hand hurt. How on earth do you bend such a beast? [Linked Image]

Why do Germans insist on solid wire? Stranded (not fine stranded) is much easier to work with in sizes 2.5 mm2 and up. It's probably safer than the solid too, since it puts less force on the terminals. Admittedly, I'm not an electrician.

Paul, Cornwall,

Sweden didn't allow sockets in bathrooms until a few years ago. So perhaps the question "still allow" should be "already allow"? [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 04:05 PM
Hi C-H,

it's hard but you can do it [Linked Image]

i agree with your fact of the mechanical stress on the terminals.

but i think its OK touse solid ones for 1,5 and 2,5mm² house installs. They are easy to use with the clamp-terminals (there are even Breakers with cage claps at the load side now), and 95% of Schuko outlets and light switches sold today use this system. Although i heard you may use stranded wires in these, i wouldnt trust it.
using stranded wires on screw terminals, most do-it-yourself enthusiasts would use them without ferrules, damaging the copper and making the terminal a hot spot. i have seen horrible things with these from selfmaking guys. banged the screw into that terminal and cut 75% of the copper strands.....
Posted By: C-H Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 04:13 PM
Sweden uses the same devices as Germany (or did until Swedish-made devices forced them off the market) but 1.5 mm2 stranded wires for the in wall wiring. Ferrules are not used.

For some reason, cables - identical to NYM - use 1.5 and 2.5 mm2 solid. The 1.5 mm2 is no problem, the 2.5 mm2 is a bit trickier but still workable. Larger wires are invariably stranded.


[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 04:49 PM
C-H, what do you use to connect the stranded wires in junction boxes? wirenuts? as they have a metal thread inside? doesnt this damage the strands?
Posted By: C-H Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 05:02 PM
Yes, in in-wall boxes you use wirenuts, wagos or in the case you are out of space "u-boats" [a single screw, single pole terminal block]. In surface installations, a box mounted terminal block is sometimes used.

Does it damage the wires? Yes. You can't reuse the wires more than once or twice before you have to cut them back since you have lost some strands. Wagos appear to be even worse. Fortunately, you do not very often change installations. Otherwise, the wires would be very short very soon. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 05:53 PM
see, that kind of safety risk with cutted strands can't appear when only using solid. Wirenuts even cut into the solid wires, but a stranded wire with the outer strands cut off can be pulled out of the nut. a solid wire is held good because of the cut.

the u-boats are what i meant with the brass cube. and using them with stranded not-ferruled wires is really a safety risk IMO.

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: PaulCornwall Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 06:27 PM
Hi Andy

just spotted the picture of the cable i thought was flex, that on the smaller sizes must be easy to use, we use a flat cable called twin and earth, generally in domestic work, and its rubbish, i dont under stand why we dont use a round cable over here.

I cant belive you guys can put sockets in bathrooms,, we have just had a regulation update on bathrooms here, and we can just about put a light in there, we will be back to candles over here.

the thought of someone putting a tv on a stool whilst having a bath, then leaning out to change channels.........
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 06:32 PM
Flex is rare in fixed wiring here. Even cables suitable for a 45A cooker tend to be solid. You litterally need to use tools to bend them.

They're relaxing a little where stranded cable is allowed but it must be correctly finished with a ferrule simply twisting the strands together isn't regarded as sufficient.

Heavy flex is often used in DIY jobs though.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 07:18 PM
Quote
Except of making me female, this was good -der- erste aus deutschland
Oops! My apologies. [Linked Image] I shouldn't have made that silly mistake, as I do know the difference betweeen der/die/das.

I'm not sure if my ISP has an incoming limit for attached file sizes, but I've never had any problems receiving 1MB+ attachments, so for our purposes there shouldn't be any difficulties.

C-H:
Quote
just looking at that 10 mm2 solid wire makes my hand hurt.
You bet! I can feel my wrists aching just thinking about shaping that. Any bigger and we'd need to use a conduit bender to form the wire into shape! [Linked Image]

In the older British cables (before about 1970) we were at the other extreme. Only the very smallest size (1/.044, almost equivalent to modern 1.0 sq. mm) was solid. Everything else was stranded: 3 strands for the next two sizes and 7 strands for the other common domestic sizes.

By the way, American Romex now has a ground wire the same size as the other conductors, but British "twin & earth" still has the earth one size smaller, e.g. 4mm cable has a 2.5 earth. (The exception being 1.0 cable which has a 1.0 sq. mm earth.)

Quote
Which cable system do you mean is flex?
"Flex" is used in British English as a shortening of "flexible cord." It refers to cords with a fine-stranded wire, such as the top and middle cords in your second photo.

On the color code issue, the U.K. had a similar problem when the European colors were adopted for flex, as blue was (and still is) used as a phase in fixed wiring.

We had quite a discussion on color coding a while back:

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000081.html


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 08:34 PM
@PaulCornwall: This TV thing is a bad idea... [Linked Image] they like to use the hairdryer act for murderings in movies. plugged hairdryer thrown into tub. ever heard of RCD hu?...

@PaulUK: no problem with that gender thing [Linked Image]
i kew what flex means, i just didnt understand which area of application paulCornwall meant by saying "When ever i have been to Germany your cable system looks like flex, is this the case".
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 08:48 PM
Here in Austria I've only seen 6mm2 solid. Was real tough wrapping that around the terminal screws of ca. 1913 Diazed fuses (I was installing a new feed to our apartment). In another place I used 10mm2 stranded for the same purpose. Pretty ridiculous for 20A main fuses. The wire I'm talking about had about 5 strands looking like 1.5mm solid wires each.
No, U-boats look like wirenuts with screws. You mean strip connectors or choc blocks (well, they don't look _that_ much like chocolate, but I can see the ressemblance).
On the cut strands: I just took apart a Schuko plug (the Kopp rubber type that'S used for garden stuff, etc). The strands were just stuffed loosely into the terminals, not even twisted. The wire ends were stripped far too long, abou 1/2 cm of copper was sticking into mid-air. I guess the screws only gripped maybe 5 strands of the 1mm2 cable. The blue wire was part black and when I took the plug apart the sheathing of the flex (it was only a short piece, had been cut off) came right off. Obviously never heard of a strain relief.
The only instance where I've seen flex inside walls was the infamous 0.75mm2 zip cord (Zwillingsleitung) used to feed an extra receptacle.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 08:49 PM
I think Paul (Cornwall) might be refering to your cables being round, making them look similar to 3-core flex from the outside.

Our cables in Britain are flat (or oval, really) with all the conductors laying side by side.

Here's the 4mm version of T&E (Twin & Earth), with stranded 4mm phase and neutral and a solid 2.5 bare earth wire:
[Linked Image from tlc-direct.co.uk]

Here's a 3-core-plus-earth, with solid 1.5mm wires (bare earth is 1.0):
[Linked Image from tlc-direct.co.uk]


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-19-2003).]
Posted By: David UK Re: Some german electrical info - 10/19/03 11:06 PM
British 4mm T&E with 2.5mm earth, I've never seen that!
All 4mm T&E I have seen in the UK has a 1.5mm earth.
The usual sizes of British twin & earth cable (6242Y) are as follows:
1.0mm with 1.0mm earth (CPC)
1.5mm with 1.0mm earth
2.5mm with 1.5mm earth
4.0mm with 1.5mm earth
6.0mm with 2.5mm earth
10.0mm with 4.0mm earth
16.0mm with 6.0mm earth

AFAIK 16mm is the largest size of flat twin & earth manufactured.

Note: 2.5mm T&E manufactured between 1970 & 1981 only carried a 1.0mm earth wire.
When the 15th Edition IEE Regs were issued in 1981, it was found that the 1.0mm earth was inadequate for certain combinations of fault current & overcurrent device. The cable standard (BS 6004) was revised & the earth wire incorperated in 2.5mm T&E increased to 1.5mm.

I tend to share Paul Cornwall's view of British T&E cable, it's crap, but considering how cheap it is, what can we expect?
One point in it's favour is that the flat construction enables better heat dissapation, & slightly higher current ratings than round cables of the same CSA.
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/20/03 02:03 PM
And some more pictures.

German plugs:

[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de]

left: Euro plug, fits -almost- everywhere in Europe. 2,5A. note the pins are not fully metal. they are partially touch protected. for example the italian outlets dont have the "hole" the schuko receptacles have, so it's prescribed the pin may only make contact after it cant be seen anymore from outside.

middle: Plug for Hairdryer, Vacuum cleaner, other power appliances that dont need grounding. 10A. Pins are thicker than euro, and cant be insertet into an euro outlet.

Right: Schuko, general Use, 16A. flat brass on top and bottom is the GND contact.
All plugs are not polarized.


Some big wires

[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de]

top: 1,5mm² AWG 15 solid, for comparison

middle: 5x 16mm² with 7 wires per conductor. Thats the one used for House connection point -> Meter for example.

bottom: Single i guess 70mm² conductor, sector shaped. I removed this from a 4x 70mm² cable. usually not used single for fixed install, only in cables (double-insulated).

Cut view of the 5*16mm²
[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de]

Some real bodybuilders work: Solid 6mm² supplying fuses in an old Fuse Panel. one wire supplies 5 fuses without an interrupt! they just removed the insulation, bent a "U" and continued to the next fuse.

[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de]
[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de]


[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-20-2003).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some german electrical info - 10/20/03 04:03 PM
Quote
Some real bodybuilders work: Solid 6mm2 supplying fuses in an old Fuse Panel. one wire supplies 5 fuses without an interrupt! they just removed the insulation, bent a "U" and continued to the next fuse.
That's about what I had to do some time ago. Finally I gave a d*n on the regulations and went to 4mm2 as the stuff was only fused 20A anyway. Didn't get the idea of looping though, tried to get 2 wires under the screws (yes, the screws were even long enough to do that). Finally I left all that stuff alone and installed the original 2 circuit Diazed assembly with bus bars alongside of a 4 circuit + RCD breaker panel. The electrician gave me a slightly weird look when he saw Diazed, but signed it off without any further ado.
The 70mm2 stuff looks like the cable they wired our house service with (8 apartment building).
BTW, contour plugs aren't 10A, they're 10-16A (DC/AC), just like Schuko plugs. However, some carry lower ratings, depending on the appliance they're connected to. My Grundig reel-to-reel tape recorder has one rated as low as 2.5A.
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Some german electrical info - 10/20/03 04:19 PM
Is the white (or gray) wire here being used as a neutral?

I see two wires under one screw in the bus and three (!!!) wires under the screw next to it.

[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/20/03 04:54 PM
thats what it is. seems to have been OK back the days (this panel is 30 years old).
thats actually our panel, where my PC is running on [Linked Image]. never hat problems with the neutrals. is it permitted to do this now? i dont have to deal with building installations this often, the new panels all have 20+ ports for N and GND. and even these are touch-proptected!

i wanted to mount breakers in this panel for a longer time, but it still runs fault free, and our safety regulations get in my way here. I may do this work, but must have a "Master" to check it and measure all outlets before the Energy supplier reconnects it!

is the "master" title common in UK/USA?

in germany, you begin doing a "Training" for 3 and a half years at an industrial or electricians company, go to school and do several final examinations. thats what i did so far. then you can get your "master" title by half a year of school, go to a technicians school for 2 years and so on...
Posted By: PaulCornwall Re: Some german electrical info - 10/20/03 06:10 PM
yep your right i assumed that because the cable was round it was a flexible type cable.

just looking a the pics of your plug tops,, no worries about polarity there, you guys across the channel dont have a worry with that..why is that??
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/20/03 07:42 PM
because

-unplug before service [Linked Image]
-using 1:1 insulation transformer for repairs on live appliances
-bigger appliances are 2-pole switched

or what problems do you think we should have?

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-20-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/20/03 08:33 PM
Re reduced-size earth conductor in UK cables -- Sorry, I goofed. [Linked Image] Shouldn't post when I'm tired after a hard day, and it seems to have been all go the last three or four days.

You'll see multiple neutral conductors under one screw terminal all the time here. Where the neutral bar has only as many terminals as there are circuit breaker positions, it's unavoidable with the use of ring circuits.

As we've discussed in other threads, I think too big a deal is made of polarized plugs for most portable appliances in Britain. Looking around the electric tools and test equipment surrounding me at the moment, I can see very little where polarity is of any consequence at all.
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Some german electrical info - 10/20/03 09:35 PM
Here in the USA putting two conductors under a single terminal screw a big no-no.

If the inspector sees that, you will be tagged. There's something also in the US National Electrical Code about it, I think, from what I've gathered here.

Someone who has the code might be able to check what chapter/verse? [Linked Image]
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/21/03 10:36 AM
It depends on how the terminal screw is designed. If it has space and a big flat head and the cables are put carefully under it and it's tightened properly they'll hold and make good contact for years. If not you're in trouble!

Paul: Generally in UK domestic installations you use quite small Consumer Units / Boards? i.e. just a single DIN rail?

Most of the rest of Europe, including Ireland, tends to use much more spacious boards. Typically here they're at about 30cm by 30cm (very aprox. I'm not 100% sure of the current dimentions that's just a rough eyeballed guess!) But you'll get two rows of MCBs in.

Some 1970s installations tend to be all Ring circuits or 2 rings and 1 lighting circuit so you just have 3 big diazed fuses and 1 smaller one for lights.
That way of doing things doesn't seem to have remained common practice however. We seem to have switched back to radials again despite not being legally required to for any reason. I think many contractors just consider rings an added complication particularly considering that you have to route the cables back to the board at both ends. In sprawling bungalows (quite common here) it's much easier not to have to do that!

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-21-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/21/03 11:27 AM
Yes, domestic panels here are almost always just a single row of fuses or breakers.

Have a look at Consumer units here for the types typically used in a modern installation.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/21/03 11:37 AM
Sven,

NEC (2002 edition) 110.14(A) has a reference to more than one wire per terminal:
Quote
Terminals for more than one conductor and terminals for aluminum shall be so identified.

110.3(B) states:
Quote
Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

Put those two together, and I reckon that's covered the issue. Maybe one of our NEC experts can confirm or add something to this.
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/21/03 01:41 PM
take only one terminal of tne neutral bar, and you've got the terminals we used for junction boxes before the wagos came. when you use only wires of the same diameter, there is no problem fixing more of them together in one terminal.
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/28/03 08:52 PM
updates:

i read in between that a VDE rule is: every neutral conductor must be connected extra on a panel's neutral bar.

and, i've seen 3 phase cables being installed at the company i work with the third phase gray. so looks like this is sure coming up.
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Some german electrical info - 10/28/03 10:01 PM
Paul Cornwall said:

Quote
we have just had a regulation update on bathrooms here, and we can just about put a light in there, we will be back to candles over here.

Did the update do away with the "shaver socket" (two round pin socket with isolation transformer)?

Sometimes you could probably plug a small radio into one of those (with the right adapter) without blowing up the transformer.

How does a person shave or dry their hair? Is it back to using those little screw-in plug bodies like this bad boy? [Linked Image]

[img]http://images.lowes.com/product/032664/032664116506.jpg?wid=158&cvt=jpeg[/img]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some german electrical info - 10/29/03 01:54 PM
No, they drag an extension cord from an adjacent room and plug it in there, peferably into an outlet that isn't GFI protected [Linked Image]
By the way, we never had the version that only offers a single outlet here, only the one with 2 sockets and light bulb. Usually made of porcelaine and widely used for powering electric irons in the 1930ies and well into the 50ies, then those rapidly died out.
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/29/03 07:22 PM
Bathroom thing: sorry but that with the permitted outlets sounds silly to me.

imagine the connector of the extension cord (how is that called? the "mobile" receptacle) falls into the tub.
you cant get the fixed bathroom receptacle to the tub unless you smash the wall... and the cable to your hairdryer is one piece with no water sensitive connections in it.

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-29-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/29/03 09:58 PM
Sven,
The transformer-isolated shaver outlet is still the only permitted socket in a bathroom here.

Andy,
This is one area where my views differ from those held by most Brits. I would like to see our IEE relax the rules on outlets in bathrooms and allow one suitable for hair-dryers and such like, subject to GFI/RCD provisions.

You might like to look back at this thread where we discussed the extension cord angle (near the top of the second page).
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 06:44 PM
Kupplung is called trailing socket in English.
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 06:58 PM
The schuko style ones more closely resemble a BS cable coupling however. [Linked Image]
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 07:04 PM
Strangely enough hairdryers and bathrooms aren't two things that we associate here in Ireland. I don't know of anyone who would actually dry their hair in the bathroom. It's normally something that is done in the bedroom at the dressing table infront of a mirror, often sitting down and sorrounded by haircare products and other associated appliences like tongs etc.. It's much more civilized than standing up at the sink (washtub) in a small steamy room! You just towel dry your hair in the bathroom.

From an electrical point of view it's normal to install at least 2 X double sockets in a typical bedroom these days. Normally one at either side of the bed and one near the dressing table/mirror. (depending on the room size)

I found it very frustrating in France to discover just a single ungrounded outlet in a fairly modern bedroom. Modern bedrooms are full of electronic gagets, computers, hairdryers, lamps, etc etc.

Also, you'd always have had to designed a system here to handle up to 3KW portable heaters in bedrooms as they were in quite common use. It doesn't seem to be the case elsewhere in europe.


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-30-2003).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 08:29 PM
In Italy we once had to dry our hair standing in a hallway. However that was hardly the elctrician's fault, only the hallway receptacles were the only Schuko ones. Can't remember whether the bathrooms had any receptacles at all, apart from the ones for the wall-mounted electric heaters, and our rooms only had Italian recptacles. In our room some ingenious sparky had installed a 16A only one, so we couldn't even use Euro plugs. We resorted to routing the cords of our cell phone chargers through the gap under the door.
Boy was I glad I had short hair that only needed towel drying! I can still remember the girls with long hair cursing!
Here it seems to be just the other way round, everybody dries his/her hair in the bathroom, so you've almost always got at least two outlets.
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 08:52 PM
Italy doesn't officially use schuko though so it would be the norm to only find Italian sockets. The only way around it is to bring a Schuko - Italian adaptor .. which are available quite easily in a hardware store in Italy [Linked Image]

Actually for Italian, Swiss and Danish tourists here in Ireland it used to be practically impossible to get an adaptor to fit the grounded plugs as the only ones available were either 2-pin and only accepted Europlugs etc or were schuko. It's somewhat easier now to get an adaptor that handles all of the various European grounded plugs. it's basically a schuko recepticle with various shuttered holes for the alternative grounding systems.
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 09:28 PM
i got a italian->Schuko adaptor in a supermarket in italy for 1€ or so. has the 10A three-pin on the "italian" and a schuko socket on the second side. although the packing looked cheap, the piece seems to be OK, it's even got these shutters inside the holes that only open up when both pins are pushed in.

why does italy use separate 10 and 16A systems??

Texas Ranger, was ist der Unterschied zwischen Receptacle, Outlet und Socket? oder ist das alles dasselbe?

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-30-2003).]
Posted By: PaulCornwall Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 10:20 PM
yep we can still have the shaver socket in bathrooms,,

i dont know if Paul UK can post on here a picture of the new regs regarding bathrooms..

it would make things a lot clearer
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 10:34 PM
What is the biggest device that can be plugged into a shaver socket (in terms of amperage, wattage, etc.) without blowing up the isolation transformer?

I'm assuming a small mains-operated solid-state table radio will be fine, right? The thirty year old critter I'm listening to here uses about 5 watts at 120 volts AC.

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 10-30-2003).]
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 10:36 PM
Yeah italy's system's actually quite different from anything elsewhere. There are 2 different ratings for plugs and sockets.

10A have thin pins in the same spacing as a Europlug with the centre earth pin.

16A have thicker pins spaced further apart than a Europlug. You cannot insert a 16A plug into a 10A outlet but you can insert a 10A plug into either outlet.


Italian 16A plug
Pins diameter: 5mm spaced 26mm apart.

[Linked Image from andronio.it]

Italian 10A plug
Pins spaced 19mm apart 4mm diameter

[Linked Image from andronio.it]

For comparison: A CEE 7/7 plug (note the pins are spaced just like an italian 10A plug but are too fat to fit into an italian 10A socket and too close together to fit into a 16A socket) (not necessarily a bad thing as it prevents schuko plugs being used without a ground connection in italy!)

[Linked Image from andronio.it]

Finally: an open rewirable italian 16A plug. note the pins are quite a bit thicker than schuko.

[Linked Image from audiokit.it]



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-30-2003).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 10:42 PM
Ragnar said:
Quote
In our room some ingenious sparky had installed a 16A only one, so we couldn't even use Euro plugs.

If an Italian 10-amp grounded plug can fit into a 16 amp socket, and the pin spacing of a 10-amp grounded plug and a Europlug are pretty much the same (essentially a Europlug with a third pin) why wouldn't you be able to use the Europlug?

It seems to me that the bigger holes of the 16 amp socket would allow a Schuko or Contour plug to fit, albeit the Schuko will not be grounded.

Confuzzzzed.....
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/30/03 11:18 PM
Sven: Schuko shouldn't mate with 16A italian sockets. They have wider pin spacing and "holes" are designed to have narrow spaces where the 10A plug fits and wider spaces where the 16A fits. If you try to push in a schuko plug the pins will hit where the 10A pins should hit and will be too wide to push in.

(at least on a non-damaged modern socket outlet)
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 01:04 AM
regarding ranger's problem:
There are 10A outlets and combined 10-16A outlets that have 2 holes per pole (holes are connected like an eight). but afaik there are also some 16A only outlets, where you can't fit an euro plug.

taht pic of the DIY plug, well i dont think this one is that great. i have bought a little different one in italy too. it was wider and hat the screws and the cable holes switched in comparison with the picture. so screw in direction of the pins, and holes at the side.

i would consider both of them bad, because you have no space for using ferrules. (tell me when i annoy you with them damn ferrules but i am accustomed to use them everywhere...)

and also, they dont have what's prescribed here: The Earth terminal must be in shorter distance to the incoming cable than the N and L terminals. Or, you have to leave the ND wire a bit longer than the others. What for? To assure that it will tear off at last if the strain relief fails.

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-30-2003).]
Posted By: David UK Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 01:50 AM
Sven,
UK bathroom shaver sockets are usually rated at 20VA 230/115V, so your radio would probably work no problem.
You would not "blow up" the transformer by plugging in a hair dryer or similar load, because the unit is protected by an internal,self re-setting thermal cut-out, which will simply cut the power when overloaded. Many overseas tourists have found this out.
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 05:24 AM
About these plugs:
[Linked Image from 320036920636.bei.t-online.de]
It looks like you can plug all of them in 2 different ways. The ground would stay the ground, but the hot and neutral could be flipped. I suppose the equipment is requred to be designed to expect the "neutral" might in fact be hot? Which would also mean that the equipment won't mind being powered in the USA by our centertapped grounded 240V system (assume the equipment doesn't care about line frequency, 50 vs 60Hz).
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 05:32 AM
Same thing with this plug. 3 pins in line evenly spaced. Easy to plug it in backwards, so that the hot(blue) and brown (neutral) are swapped.
[Linked Image from audiokit.it]
In the USA, our 3 prong plugs are designed so the hot can only go to hot, ground to ground, and neutral to neutral (assume the outlet is wired correctly).
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 10:58 AM
Quote
i dont know if Paul UK can post on here a picture of the new regs regarding bathrooms..

This amendment gives the rules, including diagrams of the zones:
http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/Amd_3.pdf


Andy,
Quote
was ist der Unterschied zwischen Receptacle, Outlet und Socket? oder ist das alles dasselbe?
Receptacle and socket are the same thing. Receptacle is the usual American name; socket is used in Britain.

Outlet can refer to any point where power is delivered. (I think you would refer to this as Anschluß ?) An outlet may be a receptacle/socket, or may also be a fixed device such as a wall-light.

Hope you can understand that; I'm afraid my language skills aren't good enough to explain that in German!

wa2ise,
Polarity isn't considered a big deal for portable appliances in Europe.

Equipment is indeed designed to treat hot & neutral as being exchangeable in most cases. This includes appliances built to British Standards, which makes the fuss about correct polarization here a little excessive.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-31-2003).]
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 11:16 AM
Wa2yse:

As has been discussed several times in this forum the majority of European plugs are not polarised for historical reasons.

In many EU countries in the past you had 2 "hots" at aprox. 127V when a load is connected across these you got a potential difference of 220V. This system was phased out in favour of a 220 (now 230V) hot and 0 V (bonded to ground) neutral. However, the plugs and sockets in many countries remained the same and did not become polarised.

It's just a difference in design philosophy and doesn't actually degrade the safety of appliences.

Appliences are all, including light bulb holders, designed to work safely with a non polarised connection. They use 2-pole switches and in the case of ES bulb holders the terminals are shrouded and unlike the US version you cannot contact any of the terminals when the bulb is screwed in, thus eliminating one of the only risks of shock that could be caused by a non-polarised plug.

Other than that appliences pose no risks and in all cases it's advisable to unplug an applience before opening the case. This is also true in a polarised system as it's quite possible that hot conductors could be exposed even though the applience's switch is in the off position. It's just common sense.

The only major exception to this are the UK and Ireland where every outlet is polarised and grounded every plug individually fused and where 2 pin plugs / sockets don't exsist.

Swiss, French and Danish sockets are also polarised when used with a grounded plug but are not however when used with a 2 pin plug.

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-31-2003).]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 02:30 PM
the trick of the german lightbulb fittings is that the contact for the outer thread is not where it's turned in, but at the bottom next to the center contact. so, you would have to stick your finger all through the fitting to touch any live part. and if you try to do that, theres no help for you anymore anyways [Linked Image]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 04:15 PM
Quote
Same thing with this plug. 3 pins in line evenly spaced. Easy to plug it in backwards, so that the hot(blue) and brown (neutral) are swapped.
You already swapped them Brown is hot and blue is neutral. _Always_! At least if the wiring's done correctly.

Andy, hast du das mit Outlet, socket und receptacle verstanden? Ist an sich nicht schwer, aber hier nochmal: socket und receptacle ist dasselbe, nur englisch und amerikanisch. Outlet ist der Überbegriff für jeglichen Anschlußpunkt. Kann auch in verschiedensten anderen Zusammenhängen verwendet werden (nicht elektrisch, z.B. Wasserhahn oder so).

{ Edited only for typo in UBB codes [Linked Image] -- Paul }


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 10-31-2003).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 04:34 PM
Easy for a person used to NEMA colour-coding to make that mistake. I always used to get confused also.

It would make sense to make the brown the neutral.

What's the usual color of dirt/ground? Brown. What is the neutral? The grounded conductor. Therefore......(fill in the blank). [Linked Image]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 06:52 PM
no, not another change [Linked Image]
we also could make the hot green because most transformers are green... or gray as the alloy overhead lines...

things like making a worldwide color code or worldwide measurement system (metric for exmpl) should have been done way way before. i dont think they would nevertheless make some unique standard. too late [Linked Image]
Posted By: geoff in UK Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 07:26 PM
As an occasional visitor to Germany, what has struck me as odd is that the bathroom sockets are sometimes combined in a single plate with the wall mounted light switch. As you run your hand down the wall seeking the switch, your fingers go into the schuko recess !
I know hands are probably dry at the time, and that the contacts are much further back, but it just doesn't seem right.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 07:44 PM
Quote
What's the usual color of dirt/ground? Brown
Funny you mention that. I've also pondered on how brown might have been somebody's idea of a good color for earth/ground, but the English-speaking world just settled on green instead.

Quote
the trick of the german lightbulb fittings is that the contact for the outer thread is not where it's turned in, but at the bottom next to the center contact.

Here's the typical European ES holder:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 08:12 PM
@Geoff in UK: These are older ones. you won't see fixtures like this in new built rooms anymore.
And, you shouldn't touch an electrical fixture with wet fingers anyway.....

@pauluk: mmh, you posted a bad example [Linked Image] this ones so wide open at the top. the ones i have here are all a bit deeper.

and no problem about your german skills [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by :andy: (edited 10-31-2003).]
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 08:57 PM
DJK,

Re. that picture of the open right-angle Italian cord cap:

That thing looks like a pain in the rear to wire up. Especially if you're struggling with a thick cord.
It looks very tight in there and god help you if you don't cut the wires "just right".

I hate right-angle plugs sometimes. Hehehe...
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 10:38 PM
Well, I would have thought like this:
When you look up at the sky to see the wires on telephone poles, you mostly see blue (assume it's a nice clear sunny day). And thus the hot wires should be colored blue. And look at the ground, it is either brown (bare) or green with grass. So brown should be the neutral.

So they got it backwards. :-)

Well, they did get green right....
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 10:43 PM
Sven:

I never said Italian plugs were easy to wire [Linked Image]

I find most schuko rewirable plugs that I've come across horrible to wire compared to UK ones. But then again UK rewirable plugs are huge.


Inside a normal Irish IS401 (BS1363) plug, fused at 13A.
[Linked Image from thediyworld.co.uk]

BS546 15A rewirable.. so much space you could park a small car inside!

[Linked Image from eskom.co.za]


(this gives you an idea of the size of these things ... look at the cable entering at the bottom in comparision to the plug size!)
[Linked Image from safety.org.sg]

Note this plug pre-dates sheathed pins and would be illegal thesedays.

[Linked Image from volexpowercords.com]

and a diagram of BS1363

[Linked Image from volexpowercords.com]

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 10-31-2003).]
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 10/31/03 10:56 PM
The reasoning behind the choice of colours was so as not to have them confusable with the other major systems that were in use at the time of the change over. They're also easily identified if you're colour blind dark = hot, light = neutral, stripy = ground.

As for plugging a european applience into a US 240V (2 x hot) outlet.

There are a few problems:

1) European appliences tend to be designed for 220-230V not 240-255V (old UK appliences might fare better). For all european countries, excluding the UK and including Ireland, the voltage was 220V 50hz for many many years. The UK standardised on 240V 50Hz (along with Malta and Cyprus). A decision was made to move to 230V (nominally) to bridge the difference. You might find that EU appliences connected to a US 240 supply might be running a little strangly.

2) They are designed to have a reference to 0V ground. Many appliences with electronic components, particularly computers, can have quite serious problems when used on an old 127+127V supply in Europe so I doubt they'd be very usable on a US split phase supply either.

3) as mentioned already the frequency difference would be a major problem.
Posted By: wa2ise Re: Some german electrical info - 11/01/03 06:32 AM
Quote
They are designed to have a reference to 0V ground. Many appliences with electronic components, particularly computers, can have quite serious problems when used on an old 127+127V supply in Europe so I doubt they'd be very usable on a US split phase supply either.

I'm running my PC and its monitor off of a 240V 15A (NEMA 6-15) outlet here in the USA, and there are no problems (the grounding (green) wire does go to ground). It's the usual USA split phase supply (120V-0V-120V). That doesn't mean that every computer and monitor ever made will work properly fed this way, but most all such use switching power supplies. Switching power supplies don't care if it's 60Hz, 50Hz or 400Hz or even 1.4 x RMS voltage DC for that matter. These supplies convert the incomming power to DC, and then to high frequency AC, then back to DC again (with isolation from the line).

Devices that use power transformers (like vacuum tube radios) will not have much problem with a slightly higher line voltage at 60Hz vs. the line voltage at 50Hz. At least the power transformer itself wont have any issues, the loads might get a bit unhappy but a well designed radio should tolerate 10% excessive line voltage from its nominial rating. We get the same problem with antique radios and tube hifi sets designed for 110V, and today's powerlines routinely provide 125V.

Devices like phonographs, clocks, and some motors will have problems with it being 60Hz instead of 50Hz. They will run 20% too fast.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 11/01/03 11:30 AM
Quote
They are designed to have a reference to 0V ground. Many appliences with electronic components, particularly computers, can have quite serious problems when used on an old 127+127V supply in Europe so I doubt they'd be very usable on a US split phase supply either.
I'd say that there are actually very few British/European appliances for which this would be any problem.

As Schuko and most other European plugs are reversible, nothing can be designed to rely on the "neutral" being at 0V, and the switched-mode power supplies in modern computers will most certainly run just fine with either pole grounded or with each pole at 120V to ground.
Posted By: C-H Re: Some german electrical info - 11/05/03 05:11 PM
Andy,

how about wiring in East Germany? Did it differ from that of West Germany?
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some german electrical info - 11/05/03 05:59 PM
AFAIK it did and as far as old wiring is concerned still does. TN-C systems were legal until 1990, whereas Western Germany prohibited them some time in the 1970ies. On the other hand Eastern Germany started requiring RCDs in bathrooms quite a bit earlier. They had some kind of extra shallow boxes for their concrete buildings and they invented some weird kind of Diazed fuse size. Aluminum wiring was sometimes used in residential work. Other than that GDR electrical components mostly look slightly weird, but work exactly the same (e.g. the switch rockers had a slightly different shape, but for that, they look the same in Greece and the UK, so that wasn't typically GDR). I've seen GDR kWh-meters for sale here and they seem to work fine. In Eastern germany you'll still see much older wiring than anywhere else, for example I remember many real old surface-mount conduit systems, both from personal experience and from old movies.
Posted By: Hutch Re: Some german electrical info - 11/06/03 02:56 AM
Wa2ise,

Good to see you on this side of the forum! This could be construed as a thread-jack but your comment about running your computer off 240V intrigues me – is it a NJ thing? [Linked Image]

Coming from the other side of the pond I carry quite a bit of 240V baggage with me and have had to make plans to supply some of the imported equipment that is sensitive to these sort of things. Is that an old air-conditioning supply you’re using there? How do you get around NEC 210-6(a) which prohibits voltages exceeding 120V between conductors in dwelling units which supply lighting fixtures and “… cord and plug-connected loads 1440 volt-amperes, nominal, or less, or less than ¼ hp”.

In the main I feel OK as the 240V workshop equipment is not in a ‘dwelling unit’ (for the non-NEC world – broadly defined as a habitable room), the British hot-water kettle is 3kW and the Italian electric oil heaters 2.2kW each. My biggest problem is the Japanese digital piano which at 80W comes somewhat under the wire. [Linked Image]

Frequency has not caused me a problem. The induction motors run faster but yet sweeter – and within their safety specs. Certainly nothing has balked at being given 120-0-120V 60Hz rather than 230/240V 50Hz.


[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 11-05-2003).]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 11/06/03 11:38 AM
Re 210.6(A), I can see how this can be applied to lighting fixtures, but I don't see any way in practice to force compliance with it for receptacle-and-cord connected appliances.

If anybody ever queried the presence of a 240V outlet, surely the reply is that it's for a 3kW heater or some such? Nobody can control what you actually plug into that receptacle.
Posted By: Hutch Re: Some german electrical info - 11/06/03 03:07 PM
Paul, Your comments echo my thoughts exactly. It is a question of how one enforces something that may not exist at any instance. Time for me to pop a question on the NEC Forum to seek an origin and interpretation of this code section.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 11/06/03 10:31 PM
Sounds like a good question for the NEC area. Go for it! [Linked Image]
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 11/07/03 03:49 PM
If you need to distribute 240V around I'd suggest that you get a schuko power strip and put a US 240V plug on the other end. It was designed to handle 127-0-127 supplies.

Most 230V appliences will ship with Schuko plugs and they're easily availble as rewireables.

Also I'd be way happier working with VDE/Schuko fittings than with 240V US plugs. I don't like non-sheathed pin plugs and non recessed sockets.

Schuko's ideal for a non-polarised supply BS1363's fusing might complicate matters unnecessarily.

I was talking to an older electrician here recently and schuko sockets were in relatively widespread use in Ireland until the mid-1970s. As far as he was aware they are still an acceptable alternative to BS1363 but just not the norm.

He also had never heard the term schuko used to refer to them. They were know as "VDE sockets" and only VDE type 2 was ever allowed (i.e. with grounding clips)
Posted By: Hutch Re: Some german electrical info - 11/07/03 08:35 PM
BS546-16A serves as the secondary distribution connector. Symetrical, non-fused of course but mainly used because of a plentiful supply - ex-South Africa.

[img]http://www.frontiernet.net/~ianandanita/images/The_bench[/img]

[This message has been edited by Hutch (edited 11-07-2003).]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 12/02/03 04:20 PM
why is there a Fuse in the UK plug?
I think its a good idea, but does it protect only the cable, or the appliance thats connected?
If its for the cable, why? Isnt the breaker or fuse for the Receptacle enough?
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some german electrical info - 12/02/03 05:02 PM
Well, as the british use ring circuits with 32A fuses/breakers it isn't. So the plug fuse is there to protect both cord and appliance. Ring circuits are actually 2 2.5mm2 cables paralleled, but not run in parallel but forming a huge ring (for example the phase wire goes from the breaker to socket #1, from there to socket #2, socket #3,... and then finally back to the same breaker). A pretty complex setup and we've had quite some discussions about it in the past.
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 12/02/03 06:35 PM
ah, i didnt know the british travel that high Amped to their outlets.

why does the phase go back to the same breaker?? why a ring, not a "tree" distribution?
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 12/03/03 01:18 AM
The major advantage is that you can install a lot more outlets using a lot less wiring.

The cables "loop in" and "loop out" of each outlet and carry on to the next outlet and then back to the MCB on the distribution board.

Power is fed to the outlets in 2 directions i.e. on both sides of the ring so the cable does not need to be as thick.

[Linked Image from diynot.com]

They're also used in Ireland too although in modern installations we tend to mix ring circuits with a lot of 20A radial circuits. As the plugs are fused individually a 20A radial circuit can supply quite a few sockets. From what I've observed most of the rest of Europe tends to use 16A radials, which are common in older installations here.

A more typical ring circuit:

[Linked Image from diydata.com]

fixed appliences are connected via a fused spur which looks like this:

[Linked Image from tlc-direct.co.uk]


The inside of a BS1363 plug: Note fuse:

[Linked Image from thediyworld.co.uk]

[Linked Image from lenehans.ie]


[This message has been edited by djk (edited 12-02-2003).]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 12/03/03 03:21 PM
i learned! thanks! [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 12/04/03 12:25 PM
Andy,

The ring circuit was introduced here in the late 1940s, along with the BS1363 (fused 13A) plug.

Here are some links to old threads which you might find interesting (feel free to add to them! [Linked Image]):

Ring circuits U.K. style

Ring circuits revisited

Ring circuits again!


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-04-2003).]
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 12/04/03 03:18 PM
i didnt read everything now, but i read, and i couldnt find a response to for example this question:

scenario - 3 Outlets in a ring, first Outlet loaded with 15A, second outlet loaded with 15A, interruption of the phase at the terminal of the third outlet.

is it right that then the whole 30A will flow only from one side into the ring, overloading the 2.5mm² wire but not blowing the fuse?
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 12/04/03 03:20 PM
ah, i found it now in the second link.
well, thats a safety risk, isn't it?
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 12/04/03 04:32 PM
The possibility of a break resulting in an overload is indeed a very real risk, whether that break occurs through damage or incompetent DIY work.

I've seen rings with a break on the line side at one point and a break in the neutral somewhere else in the ring.
Posted By: djk Re: Some german electrical info - 12/04/03 05:06 PM
I think despite the IEE's support for the ring system that that single fundemental flaw would justify Cenelec banning it in new installations. Is simply isn't fundementally safe and relies on good installation practice.

and
Despite the fact that I think BS1363 is a good, sturdy well designed connector the fact that it's possible to insert a Europlug into the outlet and end up with a portable applience being protected only by a 32A fuse is unacceptably dangerous.
Most people know how to open a UK socket shutters with a pencil and you do see tourists and locals alike using 2-pin plugs in BS1363 outlets with no adaptor.

The simple fact is that it works quite well, the sockets appear to generally make good contact with the europlugs and hold them very firmly in place.

Since all EU flexible cables are designed to handle 16A it would make an a lot more sense to fuse the sockets than the plugs.

Do you think we could ever see a fused UK socket that is designed to accept 3-pin UK plugs and thin 2-pin Europlugs?
Posted By: :andy: Re: Some german electrical info - 12/04/03 07:57 PM
whow,i didnt know that you can fit an euro plug into the british socket.

different question:
is 4mm² wire twice the expensive the 2.5 is?

if not, one could wire the outlets in radial style fused 32A with no safety risk, and would save the cable of the way back to the panel.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some german electrical info - 12/05/03 10:53 AM
4 sq. mm. cable is quite a lot more expensive than 2.5 here -- More than double in some cases. It's also much harder to work with, especially in the cramped boxes that are favored in Britain (boxes for 13A sockets are often only an inch in depth).

A 32A radial circuit with 4mm cable is permitted however, as are 20A radial circuits with 2.5 cable. They are subject to restrictions on the floor area which can be served by each branch circuit:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/6.3.3.htm
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