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Posted By: C-H Swiss wiring? - 05/05/03 01:24 PM
I'll seize the opportunity to ask what the Swiss wiring looks like today: If I've understood things correctly homes in Switzerland usually have 3-phase. Correct?

How about the sockets outlets: The Swiss sockets are only used in Switzerland: Used to be 10A. Has this changed? What are types 12, 13 and 23?

Denmark and Italy which also have their own socket outlets have been flooded with German plugs. Is this the case in Switzerland too?
Posted By: pauluk Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/18/03 09:37 AM
Just looking back and reviving one or two threads. Do we have no takers on Swiss wiring?

It would be interesting to find out how similar/different the Swiss approach is compared to the rest of Europe.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/18/03 10:18 AM
As far as I know Swiss wiring has many similarities to Austrian wiring, like fused neutrals etc. Old color codes were really weird, I put them into the color codes thread, new color code is blue for neutral, yellow/green for ground and any color but blue and yellow/green for phases, usually red. Flexes follow international color coding. 10A receptacles are still standard. One weird thing: Cords longer than 5m are illegal, unless there's a means of rolling them up when not in use. Also applies to extension cords (have to be on a reel).
The Swiss do have a very nice institution, the "Starkstrominspektorat". If doubt some old wiring is still safe you can call these guys, they'll inspect the wiring and can force the owner to bring it up to code. Maybe they even perform regular inspections.
I think the Swiss are pretty strict on their codes, so German plugs wouldn't stay long. However, I haven't been to Switzerland for more than 10 years so I can't say much about the current situation first-hand.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/19/03 07:45 AM
I checked back in the international color codes thread in the technical reference area and it looks as though we missed adding the details on Switzerland that you obtained. I'll have to get Scott to add them.

Quote

Current Swiss color coding:
Phases: all colors but blue and yellow-green
Neutral: Blue
Ground: Yellow-green.

Old colors:
Phases: all colors but yellow and yellow-red
Neutral: Yellow
Ground: Yellow-red

I got another, more detailed information on swiss color coding. Until about 1970 Phases red (R), green (S) and dark blue (T). N yellow. PE yellow-red until the 1950ies, later yellow-green.

Phase after fuse often red. Switched phase often blue or green. Got you the following colors to a light fixture: Green, yellow-green and yellow. 3way travelers often white.
In the ca. 90ies introduction of blue neutral, ban of blue phase. Yellow seems to have died out. Phases red, black and white, after fuse often black. Switched neutral whatever, for example green, travelers green as well.

All of your refernces seem to suggest the old neutral color was yellow, but we had the following entry for Swiss appliance cords (line, neutral, ground):
Quote
Switzerland: Red, Grey, Yellow or yellow/red.
It seems as though this entry might be rather suspect.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/19/03 12:41 PM
I was told so by 2 Swiss electricians who seem to be very competent, and we already found some serious flaws in the old entries, so I think this could be another.
I remember the old table reversed phase and neutral for Germany and had some other errors.
Posted By: djk Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/19/03 03:27 PM
I think the lesson is : Don't take web compiled information too seriously and always use a phase tester! [Linked Image]
Posted By: pauluk Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/20/03 11:49 AM
These compiled lists of international standards always seem to be rather suspect. Just look at the many sites listing nominal voltages and how many mistakes can be found in those.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-20-2003).]
Posted By: Bjarney Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/20/03 03:19 PM
djk — You refer to use of a phase tester. Is that the same thing as a phase-sequence indicator? In your country, is phase sequence required to be maintained the same on all equipment?

Here is a classic indicator in the US — I understand is was first fabricated by an old lineman in California in the 1920s. {Appropriateness of its “odd” ABC-Red/White/Blue-123 color code is another matter.}

[Linked Image from knoppinc.com]




[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 07-20-2003).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/20/03 03:52 PM
Germany requires clockwise phase sequence everywhere, even the plugs and sockets have to have a circular pin layout with rightwise phase rotation. Don't know about Austria, but I guess we have that too.
Posted By: djk Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/20/03 05:04 PM
When I say a phase tester I mean a simple screwdriver type device for checking if a cable is hot or not [Linked Image] (Irish/British term I think!)

As for phase sequence they're quite strict about it here.

Where 3-phase is used each phase is clearly and correctly identified by the cable colour scheme.
The power company would insure that the phase sequence is correct at their meter and the continuity of the colour scheme is simply maintained from there on. There is no question of randomly mixing up the "hots". There is also, like in Germany, a standard way to wire 3-phase plugs/sockets to ensure that the phase sequence is always maintained.

Also where single phase (230V) power is taken from a 3-phase panel it must be wired so that the 230V equipment (sockets/lighting etc) in a particular room is always on the same phase to prevent anyone from being "connected" across 2 phases.

In domestic situations 3-phase is very rare.
Generally a 63-80 amp single phase supply is used.

Electric heating's quite rare here and where it is used it's storage heating so the heating load is on only during the night and would not exceed 63amps.

(90%+ of homes here are heated either by natural gas or pressure jet oil systems) These systems generally heat radiators via a pumped closed pressurised water system. (I've noticed in the UK it's generally open with a head tank)
Posted By: C-H Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/20/03 07:00 PM
The phase sequence depends on what you wire: A cooker socket gets three black wires in random order, while a industrial 3-ph socket is should be wired with the correct sequence. You can buy plugs with phase changers, that allows you to change the sequence when your motor runs backwards...

Electric heating is the norm here and even more so in neighbouring Norway. Direct or via water and in some cases via a heat pump.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 07-20-2003).]
Posted By: djk Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/20/03 10:40 PM
over here you'd still have coloured phases even going to a cooker, not just 3 browns. You could randomly assign them to the phase connectors on the cooker itself but I don't think you can even buy cable with 1Blue+3 Browns+earth.

They can be quite fussy about stuff like that and refuse to approve an installation etc.

BTW:
Domestic cookers are almost always single phase here. We just use very heavy cabling. They are always hardwired, there's no such thing as a cooker socket over here.

The usual way it's been done here for years is pretty simple. Dedicated cooker circuit, pretty heavy ampage (depending on the size of the cooker), runs from an MCB to a cooker control switch rated to deal with large currents and a heavy cable runs from there to the cooker.

3-phase cookers often only distribute the elements randomly over the phases (operating at 220V between any given phase and neutral) so when used in Ireland they usually simply all operate from the same phase. The 3 phase cables are simply connected together and connected to the high power 220V cooker circuit.

On the other hand, in commercial kitchens 3-phase would use full scale industrial plugs and sockets or else fully hardwired. There are no other types of connector for 3-phase in use here.




[This message has been edited by djk (edited 07-20-2003).]
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/21/03 10:29 AM
Cooker wiring is pretty simple here. Dedicated 5x2.5mm2 circuit fused with 16A (sometimes also 5x1.5mm2 with 10 or 13A fuse/breaker) goes from the panel to a box behind the cooker. In the box you've got a cooker connector (basically a metal strap with claws on both ends and a strip connector and strain relief screwed to it, with a blank face plate. From there, a 5x1.5mm2 flex goes to the cooker. I've never seen 1ph cooker supplies here.
I've seen the phase inverter plugs here too. You need them in case some bloody idiot has wired your circular saw to run backwards...
Posted By: djk Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/21/03 02:37 PM
Here it would be a 35 - 45 Amp MCB supplying the cooker.
Posted By: Belgian Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/21/03 08:02 PM
Here it would be- In monophase: Minimum of 6mm2, MCB Maximum 40A,
3 phase 230V or 400V: Minimum of 4mm2, MCB Maximum 25A.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/22/03 10:31 AM
With many models of ranges now sold Europe-wide, we're seeing more units designed for 3-phase operation on the market here.

The British version is generally shipped with a bridging link between the three phase terminals to allow operation on a single-phase supply. Protection is most often a 30A fuse or 32A MCB, although some of the really huge ranges available now need higher.

In commercial situations with 3-ph, the phases would always be identified here right up to the final outlet using our standard red/yellow/blue phase colors (red/white/blue prior to 1965). With the mix of original British codes for fixed cables and European standards for flexible cords, the latter can have three brown phases with markers applied at the ends to provide phase identification.
Posted By: C-H Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/31/03 02:18 PM
I got this from the Swiss standards organisation:

Swiss electrical standards are EN standards or harmonised dokuments (HD). Products having the Swiss mark are identical to CENELEC standards and proved by a declaration of conformity or an accredited body.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Swiss wiring? - 07/31/03 06:20 PM
Over here the method of connecting ranges is pretty much the same as the UK, except that we are required to install a 4-pin socket-outlet and plug connector system to all new range installations.
The circuit is fed by a 6mm 2C+E cable(protected by 32A MCB) in most installations, however a few places out in the sticks use 2-phase 230V, fed by a 2.5mm 3C+E cable, protected by a 2 pole 20A MCB. [Linked Image]
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