Do any of the British based electricians know if this is likely to be an Irish version of the UK ring circuit system or radial with fused plugs? Would just like to make an educated guess withouth dismantling the distribution panel.

Relatively modern installation (1970s/80s)

largeish 4 bedroom house

52 socket outlets (BS 1363 switched doubles)

10 X 20 amp MCBs and 2 X RCDs on Siemens board makred sockets.

7 X 5 amp MCBs marked Lighting
1 X 10amp marked low voltage lighting, phone sys, alarm.

1 X 20 amp marked Immersion
1 X 10 amp marked central heating & controls.
1 X 32 amp marked cooker.

There's also an Over-voltage Arrester (presumably lightening protection) and a 63amp Neozed fuse on the board.

Similar to UK specs?

Anybody from the UK may correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that ring circuits are typically fused at 32A. This sounds more like 20A radial circuits wired with 2.5 mm2. It could also be a 1.5 mm2 ring, but I never heard of such a setup.

djk,

sounds like a radial circuit design with either 2.5mm or 4.00mm twin and earth (nm) cable.

the best way is to isolate each circuit and remove the socket outlets (receptacle) and find out which one only has one cable going to it.

the rest of the installation looks quite standard (in accordance with the IEE regs),

the surge arrester is a bit of an odd one as we only fit them on commercial,

A question,

is the dis board a split load, IE one main isolator for the whole board and one RCD controlled side or,
just one isolation switch (switch disconnector) and on board RCDs ??

the make of the dis board is a good one, having fitted a couple myself over the years.

John H

Yes, it sounds as though the house was wired with radial circuits throughout. The IEE Regs. only recognize a ring circuit which is fed by a 30 or 32A fuse/MCB.

The Regs. have always allowed BS1363 outlets to be wired on 20 or 30A radial circuits. The actual permissible number of outlets and floor area per circuit have changed regularly, however.

Certainly sounds like 20A radial circuits, considering the fact that 52 sockets are connected across 10 circuits.
Is it a lot of hassle to remove the cover & take a look at the outgoing cables from the breakers?

It would not be common UK practice to install 20A radials for all the socket circuits, however it would be quite acceptable and within IEE Regs (BS7671) to do so.

A 63A Neozed fuse would not be found in UK installations & the lightning arrestor would be very unlikely in domestic premises.

I would be interested to see how this board is laid out inside, because I understand Ireland has different (stricter) RCD protection requirements to the UK.

the two RCDs are on the board but on different rows. I think the lightening protection may have been installed as the house is on an exposed hill and supplied overhead. Although at least the installer cared! I'd rather spend the extra few euro on the moduel than have my computers, tv, vcr etc wiped out by a lightening induced surge. Its not required by the regs though.

As far as I know RCDs have been a manditory requirement of the ETCI rules here since about 1980 on all socket circuits but they're generally found on all modern installations predating 1980 and have been normal good practice for as long as they've been available. The older ELCB switches are found on some older systems although generally get swapped for a modern RCD during any electrical work as they are not as fast-acting/reliable.

The second RCB in this system seems to be dealing with the water heater & cooker exclusively.


All modern irish boards would have one neozed or diazed fuse protecting the whole system. I've never seen any other type of fuse in use here.

Old boards would be completely Diazed usually 5, 10 and 16 amp (sockets) radials with a 32amp for the cooker or 32 amp rings. They tend to have be retrofitted with an RCD.

The power company's installation terminates on a heavy 80/100amp fuse and in more recent systems a sealed isolation switch demarkating the end of their part of the system after the meter allowing very safe isolation standardised by the ESB (powercompany).

I get the impression that things are done in a slightly more European way here than in the UK though. Lots of siemens gear, very standardised 220V 50Hz supply (since the 1930s) and schuko recessed recepticles were the original standard despite the odd BS 546 system sneaking in here and there although where it was used generally only the 15 amp sockets were installed on 16 amp radials. I've never seen a 10 amp receptical and the two amps were/are used very occasionally for lighting only. They're used for wall-switch controlled lamps even today but are not officially recognised as an irish standard. I've seen MK "keyed" BS1363 plugs used for lighting although i'd guess the 2amp round pin plugs are easier to come by.

BS1363 is the officially accepted standard now though as IS 401 & IS 401/A

Radial circuits seem to be much more commonly used here than in the UK however, not quite sure why. Lots of homes seem to have very large distribution boards in comparison to British systems at least. Usually see at least 3 rows of MCBs on hager/siemens boards.
The ETCI specifies 32 amp rings as suitable for socket outlets accepting fused plugs (IS 401) just like in the UK. Perhaps Irish sparkies frown/ed on their use? or suspect that they may need to switch to schuko someday and want to make life easy I'll we'd have to do is swap the 20 amp breakers for 16 amp and replace the wallplates.

It does indeed sound as though Ireland is much more "Europeanized" than the U.K. in its installations.

You mentioned that the system probably dates from the 1970s era, so I thought I'd post some relevant IEE rules for radial circuits for that period that might let you work out if the electrician followed IEE Guidelines(see how useful it is to keep old code books? ).

Here are some extracts from the 14th edition (1970):


[img]http://members.aol.com/paulcoxwell/a3m.bmp[/img]


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-06-2003).]

Occasionally in Ireland very heavy appliences like dryers, dishwashers and the odd washing machine that draws a steady 3KW during heating cycles or that might peak more than that will have to be wired with a 16 amp plug or BS 546 on a 16 amp spur as 13 amp plugs won't quite cover 3KW at 220V especially if the voltage is dipping lower occasionally. Generally because of lack of polarisation with schuko and availability of schuko sockets on a standard box being difficult. BS 546 gets used although i've seen schuko and i've seen heavy industrial plugs used out of sight behind the machine and a heavy switch above the counter which is prob. the safest sollution considering they're near plumbing

E.g. we had a 3KW fan heater plugged-in in Cork city centre area and it burnt out 4 plug fuses in a day!

Some older british 240 V rated central heating systems can have occasional spark problems too. 230 V gear all seems fine.

The supply is generally very close to 220V and tends to dip lower rather than being higher. Considering that the ESB has been using standardised 220V since the 1930s it's unlikely that they'll really adjust things up to 230 V even in new installations.


I wonder if newly installed distribution systems really 230 V or are they still 220 (IRL/EU) and 240 in UK as they always have been?

a lot of older 220V stuff was rated 3000 W as it shipped with a 16 amp schuko plug.. things have changed a bit since the standardisation on 230 V though. 2850 W seems to be the upper design limit.

The Brits are said not to care. In fact, I think the UK standards still says 240V +/-6%. In law it has changed to 230V +10/-6%, though. There was concern among lighting manufacturers when this was passed that the 230V stuff wouldn't handle actual voltage encountered in the UK. (I.e. it would be above the official 253V)

I don't think it was the purpose of the EU to spread the 'who gives a damn anyhow'-attitude to all of Europe, but it has suceeded.


Or 2200W @ 230V. Can you guess why these wattages have been chosen?

If the load is resistive (reasonable for a kettle, space heater, drier or washing machine) this means that current will be exactly 10A or 13A when used on 240V.

A bit ironic, isn't it?

The legal standard in the U.K. was changed to 230V +10%/-6% some years ago, with the aim of it becoming 230V +/-10% at some point in the future.

For all practical purposes though, we're still on 240V +/-6%. I don't know if any utilities have actually started installing new xfmrs to give a nominal 230/400V, but cewrtainly in this area I've not seen any. Allowing for voltage sag during periods of heavy demand, everything I see is still a nominal 240/415V.

Out of curiosity, I just checked the line voltage in my home. I'm reading 227V, but this is mid-day on a Saturday when it's always low (no city gas here, so lots of electric stoves running, and it's a chilly day, so probably extra heat turned up as well). During low-load periods it normally sits arounds 242-243V. Average-load periods (e.g. late evening) seem to be around 237-238V most of the time.

Yeah, I know.... It's sad. Nothing better to do of an evening that sit around monitoring the utility line voltage.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-08-2003).]

Checked here just out of curiosity three times today.

Exactly 220V late night, 219V early morning, 218V late evening (cookers running).. doesn't look like the ESB is making a big deal of switching to 230V. They've been using it since 1927 so I doubt they'll be rushing to rip out tens of thousands of pole top transformers scattererd right across the country.

(I'd say the choice was made because Siemens were the only company who made anything like an economic bid and had a pretty standardised system. There was a possibility, given the Irish-American relationship at that time that we could have gone for a US Edison system! Ireland could have been on 110V 60hz not much of an issue for lightblubs but would have made appliences damn expensive though.)

The 230 V spec just means that utilities have to be much more aware of low voltage in 220 V areas and possibily more importantly the UK (& Malta/Cyprus/Gibraltar??) utilities at the very least need to make sure that they don't spike much above 240V. Might just mean we get a cleaner, steadier supply at 220/240.

If anyone wants to take a virtual tour with full specs of some of ESB Ireland's powerplants click here:
http://www.esb.ie/main/about_esb/power_stations.jsp

Full quicktime 3D tours.

here's the ESB's official fusing recomendations: Apparently our installation shouldn't have 20Amp MCBs for radial sockets! oops

a)Disc Colour
b)Strength
c)Circuit

a)Green
b)6 Amp
c)Lights

a)Red
b)10 Amp
c)Lights

a)Brown
b)16 Amp
c)Socket outlets - radial

a)Blue
b)20 Amp
c)Waterheater, storage heater

a)Black
b)35 Amp
c)Socket outlets - ring Cooker Electric Shower

Sunday afternoon, 4:15pm and the line is reading 237V at the moment, which is about normal. It will probably sag a little over the next couple of hours as ranges etc. come into use, although not as much as during the week. A lot of people cook their main meal at lunchtime on a Sunday, so 12-1pm time is usually a low.

Interesting on the Irish fuse colors. The U.K. standard for many years has been:

5A = white
15A = blue
20A = yellow
30A = red

(Substitute 6/16/32 for 5/15/30 for the newer MCBs.)

Those are the old Diazed fuse colours. Plenty of distribution boards still fully diazed fused.

At least Diazed/Neozed fuseboxes were safe though in so far as they didn't allow you to insert the wrong fuse cartridge and they're almost impossible to by-pass or use re-wirable fuses in.

Did the UK use a lot of boards that could use rewirable fuses?

Yes, I'm afraid the UK used rewirable fuses in most domestic & small commercial installations until around 15 to 20 years ago.
Unfortunately there are still many thousands of these rewirable fuse boxes still in service.

Austria/Germany have gray for 16A Diazed!
There are quite a few ways of overfusing a Diazed circuit. Removing the key at the bottom of the element is only one. others are: Open the burnt fuse and replace the fuse wire with a paper clip. Wrap a single strand from an old extension cord around the outside of the fuse. (I saw my uncle doing that about 8 years ago when a fuse blew and he didn't have a spare one).
When we moved into our new appartment there were 2 circuits which should have been 6A, or 10A with grinded teeth. One set of fuses (hot&neutral) had the key rings removed, the other set replaced with grey 16A ones. I assume originally there were ocre 4A ones.
Pink 2A ones never really caught or have long since disappeared.
25A is yellow (commonly used for pre-meter fuses, either 2x25A (appartment single phase feed) or 3x25A (3ph, in most cases because an electric range is used), some older appartments are even on 2x20A (for example our 100m2 appartment in rather luxurious area of Vienna, house built in 1913, wiring part original, service and risers to the pre-meter fuses on each floor have been replaced during the switchover from 127/220V 3ph w/o neutral to 220/380V in the 60ies or 70ies, back then the house with 8 appartments of more or less the same size got a new 60A 3ph service). Lots of gas, coal and wood heating here, AFAIK about 3/4 of the households here are cooking with gas, heating even more)

Here a modern consumer unit always has a 63Amp Neozed fuse and a main isolating switch on board.

Pre-meter is

60/80/100amp sealed black unit.

3phase isn't really used very often domestically although in small commercial it's fairly common. cookers / showers just take a 35amp single phase 220V circuit on heavy cable. Water heaters usually take 20 Amp. I've seen plenty of 3phase water heaters in France.

A lot of cookers ship to here with the possibility of hooking them up to 3phase though. 220/380 (230/400)

The standard UK cooker control (with socket outlet) is outlawed here for some reason. Any explanation?
They used to be quite common in the 1960s and 70s. All that's allowed now is a large flush fitting dual pole switch on the wall. Sockets have to be on socket circuits.

What was the point of that connector in the uk?

Yes, the rewireable fuses were pretty much standard for domestic installations up until the last 20 years or so, although cartridge fuses (BS1361) and MCBs might have been used on upmarket systems. Wylex still manufactures replacement rewireable carriers for their standard range panels:

The older style carriers were white porcelain with a different type of contact arrangement, but these went out of production years ago.

On the combined cooker control/socket, they've been around in the U.K. for decades. A long time ago, it was sometimes the case that the socket incorporated on the cooker unit (BS546 15A in the early days, BS1363 later) was the only one in the whole kitchen! It was most often used for ubiquitous British tea kettle, although sometimes the placement of the unit above the rear of the range didn't make for the best positioning of cords.

They're still obtainable and used, although modern kitchens are tending toward just a simple DP switch unit for the cooker now that a whole array of counter-top sockets is the norm.

They were commonplace here but are now banned, presumably due to the lack of adequate protection for the socket, especially the potential lack of an RCD.

On a different point, don't have access to this document but...

As far as I know IS 180 (Irish Standard) recognises CEE 7/7 schuko 16 amp side earthed sockets, BS 546 and BS 1363 as suitable for use here.

I am open to correction on that one.

IS 401 and IS 401/A seem to have been more concerned with ensuring that BS 1363 plugs sold here conformed to safety standards especially re: sleeved pins.

The old non sleeved type were potentially risky. Know a few ppl who were shocked by them.
They were handy for testing a phase tester though remove plug slightly and contact the Live pin with the phase tester.

Here it's a general consensus that any appliance over 3.5 kW has to be fed with 3ph. In germany there are on-demand water heaters that take 35A/400V, would be pretty hard to connect such a beast to a 1ph supply. Eastern Germany excempts cookers from this rule, they can be wired to a 1ph supply. here in Austria water heaters are either gas or electric storage heaters (rather rare) which run on a dedicated 230V/16A circuit. Cookers are wired up to a 230/400V/3x16A supply. Some ElCheapo cookers come with a Schuko plug, but then the use of rings and oven is limited. In most cases you can remove the jumpers and wire the cooker to 230/400V, then you can use it w/o restrictions.
On board main is used here in single family buildings, 3x Neozed. Appartment buildings typically have the main (= pre-meter) located in the stairway. This has the advantage that you can completely isolate the panel to work on it. However, working inside such an old Diazed main panel isn't too nice. You could cut power at the house main fuses, but that means that all other tenants are without power.
Guess I've to be pretty careful when hooking up our new meter. (We're relocating the meter out to the stairway so the meter reader doesn't have to come into our appartment and the electrician told me just to cut the lead seal, hook up the meter, then he comes and checks the wiring and gets the PoCo to reseal the meter).

Many people in the U.K. are familiar with the old "Baby Belling" stove. It had a couple of rings on top and a small oven/grill and was designed to be portable, plugging into a 13A (or old BS546 15A) outlet. The controls were wired so that it was impossible to turn on any combination of elements which would exceed the 3kW rating of the supply.

DJK,
Here's a pic of an older style unit with the porcelain rewireable fuses. This one is an MEM model, typical 1940s/1950s:



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 03-11-2003).]

I'll e-mail you a pic of the consumer unit in our house complete with 20amp radial MCBs. It's not as complicated as the one I described but almost..

Personally I don't see any problem with the British or Irish approach to wiring a cooker. 3-phase is riskier if something goes wrong and someone contacts two phases. Over here we technically require an electrician to hook up a cooker even to just make the connections from teh wall to the back of the cooker itself and once everything's rated correctly there's never a problem.

I've seen baby bellings here hooked up to 13 amp and 16 amp plugs they don't consume much more than a kettle. Plenty of microwave/grill/oven combination units that use interlocking and cycling to make sure that only one mode of cooking is in use at a time too. If you want all 3 simultaniously you need to pay for a Miele / Gagenau etc and have it hardwired.