The disadvantage with surface mounted cables it that people feel that they can just remove devices or hardwired equipment and then wrap some tape around the wires...

Well, at least it'S electrical tape! Here in Austria most people use band aid on wires and wrap electrical tape around their bleeding fingers. Honestly!
When you move into an appartment or house here this is what any light fixture wires will probably look like. Both wall and ceiling cables. Some bright guys cut the flush wires in the ceiling 2 cm away from the ceiling in our old appartment! Guess you can hear me cursing while trying to connect a new fixture.

bonsoir

yeah i can see the same thing in both usa and france but yeah txranger i allready see some nasty stuff i have one guy whom did remove air compressor motour and i really have to swear in french ( alot of dirty langunges and rather colourfull!!
hey ch i wondering what is the rules if they decided to remove devices off and leave the wires taped off or should put the junction box with cover there until new device is installed svp let me know merci marc

C-H,
Thanks for the pic, mate.
This sort of thing is pretty much common-place over here in NZ, these days, and depending on who disconnected the fitting, sometimes, you're lucky if they have tape on them, for a start.
Electricians are very hard to get over here at the moment, we have to concentrate more on the Industrial things, rather than the smaller jobs, there are just not enough Sparkies to go around!.

Marc: They should have put a box on it. It's not very hard to put a box on it! Any electrican would have. As there will be no load on it, it doesn't need very much fastening.

Ragnar: In this case the wires are taped, but it's not uncommon to see the cable simply cut, without tape.

Mike: Shortage of electricans has been a problem here too. (I don't know if it still is today) The "No sorry, in three weeks at best" reply and the minimum charge of $50 increases the incentive to do like this. (I'm afraid I don't have a solution.)

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 02-18-2003).]

What is that glob of red on the right? I'm thinking it's a piece of terminal block wrapped in tape.

At least the European type of terminal block does not allow you to contact the current-carrying elements since they're all recessed and shrouded.

I'm seeing what looks like a brown, green/yellow and blue cluster (going into the blob) to the right. Then there's a white and what looks like a black (or is it burnt) wire to the left).

Are these individual conductors going into a pipe or is this all a single multi-conductor cable stapled to the wall?

It looks like whoever did this stole the box (or the wooden pattress if it was an all-in-one surface mount device) along with the device. That's if there was a wooden block to begin with.

If this was an all-in-one S.M. device like this receptacle or a similar-styled switch:



they are sometimes mounted on wooden blocks...so probably the person took that too. These are usually wired into zip-cord stapled to the walls (dangerous)

Yes, I think so.


The type found in older boxes is not shrouded.


Black, black/white, blue and brown.


Green/yellow and a taped bare wire. (The two earth wires)

I apologize for the poor quality of the picture. (I used a digital video camera without flash.)


The latter.

This thing was anchored to the walls. Close to the left 2 wires you can see at least one anchor, standArd type. Drill round hole into masonry wall, insert anchor. When Screw is tightened, anchor expands and presses against the wall. The cable looks like standard NYM cable and the device was probably an all-in-one surface mount device. You're allowed to staple this cable to the wall surface, so this installation method is very common in renovations (My old room had all receptacles wired like that, I didn't want to rip up the walls).
>These are usually wired into zip-cord stapled to the walls (dangerous)
Well, as long as the 16 AWG zip cord is fused @ 10A...

Where is the bushing on the end of the Conduit Exit?, looks like it's been cut by a Hacksaw.

It's a multi-conductor cable stapled to the wall.

Is this photo from Sweden? Looks like an EKLK 5G1.5 cable. The second ground wire (the shield or bi-ledare) should be marked with green/yellow electrical tape and only connected to earth at one point of the installation, in the fuse panel for example. Try to figure out what kind of device the cable was attached to.
It’s pretty hard to guess.

Kent:

>Is this photo from Sweden? Looks like an EKLK 5G1.5 cable.

Right on.

>[The shield ground]... only connected to earth at one point of the
>installation, in the fuse panel for example.

May I disagree?

{Warning: Swedish!}

Enligt Elsäkerhetsverkets hemsida:

Biledaren i en kabel är avsedd och dimensionerad enbart för skyddsjordning av metallmanteln i sådana kablar där metallmanteln är en utsatt del (413.1.1.2). Biledaren får därför inte användas för skyddsjordning av andra utsatta delar som till exempel kopplingsdosor av metall eller anslutna apparater och bruksföremål.

Biledaren skall vara förbunden med skyddsledaren på ett sätt som säkerställer att manteln är effektivt skyddsjordad och att utlösningsvillkoret är uppfyllt vid en spänningssättning av manteln (413.1.1.1). Dessa villkor kan vid kortare gruppledningar normalt uppfyllas genom att biledarna ansluts till skyddsledarskenan i en central och sedan sammankopplas i de olika kopplingspunkterna.

För att skyddsjordningen av manteln alltid skall vara säkerställd bör biledaren företrädesvis vara ansluten till skyddsledaren i kretsens båda ändar det vill säga även i anslutna bruksföremål och liknande.

Om det är nödvändigt för att till exempel motverka risk för störningar kan dock biledarkretsen anslutas till skyddsledare i endast en punkt. Anslutningen bör då göras i kretsens matande ände.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 02-23-2003).]

Visst, biledaren är ju bara till för att ”jorda” metallmanteln och som ”störningsavledare” inget annat. Det är ju inte som i de gamla blykablarna där skyddsjorden utgjordes av en biledare. Fick lära mig på en kurs att det räcker med anslutning i en ände. Men sedan har andra sagt att den ska anslutas i båda. Jag vet inte vad som är rätt. Brukar lägga in den i matande ände och klippa den i andra. Sedan upprepar man bara i vare kopplingspunkt. Lägg ihop med jord, klipp.

Nåja, ur säkerhetssynpunkt spelar det ingen roll hur man gör så länge man inte har väldigt långa kablar och impedansen blir för stor för att ett jordfel skall kunna ta ut säkringen snabbt. Själv tycker jag att det mest verkar onödigt med två jordledare. Vad var det för fel med bara skärmjord? Det funkar ju på EKKJ.

Time to drag out my 23 year old Icelandic ...

Talatu Ensku?

Tak Fyrir!

Hutch

Well, it was a long time ago

Let's sort of have replies in English, if we can!.
How Rude!.

That's exactly why there should be an EU standard plug-in light fitting.

Every light fitting should come with this plug (perhaps along the lines of the British "Click" system) so if DIYer wants to install a fancy light fitting all they have to do is unclip the basic one and insert the new one. I've never understood the requirement for hardwired light fittings!

It was and still is quite common here to use BS546 (5amp?) sockets behind suspended ceilings for lighting and for shop display cabinates etc. to make life easier.

I've even seen 1930's lights here in Ireland that were connected to a ceiling rose which had 3 hooks on the sides to support the heavy glass shade with decorative chains avoiding putting strain on the cable (usually a twisted pair). They seemed like a much more flexible and ornate way of doing things.

Well, English is the primary language of ECN, but I don't think it would hurt to allow an odd message or two in other languages in the international section.

Our Continental friends do an excellent job of comprehending and writing English in what is a technical field. Sometimes it can be hard to find the the right words to express something in a foreign language: I've stood there scratching my head in France trying to work out how to express something that it only too easy in English.

DJK,

No insult intended, but I fail to see how a "universal plug" design will prevent something like C-H has posted.

The problem as I see it, is that someone ripped-off a surface mount device...leaving the exposed ends of the wires just hanging around. If anything, this is a good argument for outlawing surface-mount wiring methods like this, where the device is fastened directly to the wall instead of a box.

By the way, if there is to be a "universal plug standard," I believe there should be two, so it's easier to distinguish 110 volt sockets from 220 volt sockets.

I was refering to the problem of people ripping off expensive light fitting when they leave a house/apartment and leaving dangling cables.. would be much more sensible if these things were just plugged in / out.

Its quite common to walk into a house having bought it to find the side lights and ceiling lights removed. One couple even removed all of the pricy brass fittings and just left the house with wires sticking out of the wall where there should have been socket outlets having. they simply tripped the circuit breakers.

If it can be removed and it's worth removing people will remove it..

The scariest one is where you find a 35 amp cooker cable dangling in the kitchen where the cooker should be complete with nicely pared cables and no electrical tape. all someone has to do is flick the cooker switch to ON..

Follow up on this old thread: What I and Kent were discussing was the way to connect the extra earthing wire. Apparently, three methods are acceptable. I can imagine a fourth, but don't know if it's acceptable.



Alternative 1 was the one I was arguing for.
Alternative 2 requires a separate earthing teminal for the extra earth wire in the sockets. Alternative 3 means just cutting the wire at the receiving socket. This is the method Kent uses.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-31-2003).]

What exactly are we looking at here? Presumably Gron/Gul Jord means green/yellow earth, but what about Biledare?

The connections don't hint at an isolated ground system, so is this just some sort of redundant grounding for safety?

Intranslatable, but it refers the bare earth wire that follows the aluminium shielding. I think the same think is used on some American cables? Help with terminology appreciated.

It looks like this



It's an effect of having two earth wires in the same cable. You need to use both, since the one connected to the shield is downsized compared to the live wires, which is not permitted per the wiring regulations. I still don't get why they designed the cables this way. If they wanted a isolated or high integrity earth, they should not have downsized the shield earth. And why on all cables for indoor use? Cables for direct burial only have the shield earth.

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 08-31-2003).]

I've heard of something called a "drain wire" when referring to shielded cable/power cord.

Can someone tell us more about that?

Thanks. I've heard the term drain wire too. If the wire is connected at only one end (alternative 2 and 3) there is never any current flowing in the shield. I'm sure that is good from an electromagnetic perspective.

I would expect Karl Riley to know more about that?

Yes, the term "drain wire" is often used on shielded data cables and such like.

If there's a separate ground connection through the cable, it's quite common to connect the drain/shield at only one end of the cable.

In electronics work, internal connections in equipment often leaves the shield of audio and RF leads unconnected at one end in order to avoid ground loops.