In your respective countries, is there much demand for people who wish to live off the grid? Do you see many people installing their own generators, PV system, miniature wind farms, and so on?

A regulatory point: If your country has certain mandatory standards and practices for wiring, do these apply only to installation supplied directly by a utility company, or are the rules applicable to non-grid systems as well?

I expect as electricity gets more expensive, the demand for "grid freedom" and associated devices (solar panels, fuels cells, etc) will continue to grow.

Here in the Northeast U.S., we pay around 10-12 cents per KW, which is the among the highest in the country.

However, I suspect that this is probably quite low by Euro standards, much like gasoline (petrol) is here.

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 12-05-2002).]

I don't think so. For our physics class we always took 15 cents per kwh, and I don't think it's much more around the country.

Tex:

Were those American pennies, British pence, Euro-cents or old Austrian shilling pfennigs (I know they're pfennige in Germany, but was it the same in Austria)?

At last, something that's cheaper in the UK than the US!
I pay the following rates for electricity:
Day rate; 6.43 UK pence (9.71 US cents) / Kwh
Night rate (8 hrs); 2.67 UKp (4.03 USc) / Kwh

To go back to the topic, I have only seen 1 "off grid" installation.
It was in a remote part of the Highlands,& the home owner could not afford the quote from the PoCo, so she had a generator & inverter (for night use) installed.
The generator & inverter set up fried the electronics of 3 central heating programmers.

It is interesting to see what’s on the internet. As a “bread and butter” {economic survival} issue, my take in the US is that mainstream electrical folks {inspectors and contractors} support building codes, with or without a 60Hz feed from somewhere. There certainly are cases of “If you don’t get caught you’re OK” frame of mind. It’s being done formally and legally in California and other west coast states, and there is one unusual twist—selling back excess AC power to electric utilities. Some sites are
www.homepower.com www.realgoods.com/renew/index.cfm www.traceengineering.com www.nikolasolar.com

(There are a number of other links at the cited ones here.)

Paul,
The demand for Non-Grid supplies over here in
New Zealand, is quite big.
When the Electricity Regulations changed here
in 1992, the main generation company,ECNZ, lost its monopoly, over power generation.
Before this, you were required to have a Grid
supplied installation, regardless, of where
you lived or if you wanted it or not, this was your only option for a Power supply.
Nowadays, things are very much different,
thanks to the Green movement in the US and here, we now have Wind generators, Solar Water systems and water-powered systems
(although, not as popular).
Because these may back-feed into the Grid,
they must be synchronised and they also have
to have a myriad network of interlocks, contactors, etc.
Just a shame we have no-one from Australia in our Forums, Non-Grid use is huge over there, especially in the Outback.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 12-06-2002).]

I was talking of euro-cents, Euro is slightly above US$ now, but within rounding to the 2nd decimal digit.
Old smaller unit to Schilling was Groschen, 100 Groschen = 1 Schilling.
1 Euro = 13.7603 Schilling.
We set it on 2 Schilling per kwh, i.e. 15 cents.

David,
Electricity prices are one of the very few things which are actually still quite reasonable in the U.K. From TXU Energi here in Norfolk, my current rates are:

Day 6.64p (10.42 cents) per kWh
Night 2.82p (4.43 cents) per kWh
Standing charge is £11.36 ($17.84) per qtr.
Including tax, converted at current rate of £1 = U.S. $1.57.

Peter,
Gasoline is quite another matter. Current price here works out to U.S. $4.39 per gallon, thanks to the 300% tax imposed upon it by the vultures at Westminster.

BJ,
Interesting links, thanks. I'll mark those sites and have a good look round when I have a little more time.

I don't know of anyone running a home off the grid around here, although there has been an experimental wind-farm just down the road (Winterton, Norfolk) for some years now working as a commercial project.

Trumpy,
Are you telling us that prior to 1992 in NZ it was actually illegal to install you own power supply (of whatever type) for use on your own property? I'm sure that most of us would consider such a law to be totally unconstitutional.

What would have happened if somebody installed their own generator/PV system and told the PoCo that he no longer required service and asked them to disconnect it? Would they have refused to do so?

I do off grid installs. I took a 'solar course' a while ago, was the only 'lectrician there, and subsequently have been involved since then.

There is a monetary aspect here, ( we are $.0117 KWH) as the 'bottom line' has attracted the mainstream public these days, as opposed to the sandal wearing dreadlock sporting crusaders of the past.

Our history here has gone 180 deg. from the Rural Electrification Program* , after WW2 I believe, when poco's would actually knock on your door selling themselves, to expensive line extentions ($11 OH $18 UG prim)

The inital poco install, plus monthly fees that can be easily amortized over , say a decade, justify quite the alt. power setup.

This, of course is most attractive to those whom choose house sites here waaaay out in the puckerbrush, many don't even realise when there's a power failure.

*( any old timers here from the REP era?)

Yes, Paul, it was, it curtailed any such competition to the Electricity Corporation,
another Monopoly, that died a violent death in 1993, thank God.
In my copy of the old 1976 Electrical Wiring
Regulations, it was a Summary Offence under
Regulation 78, to own, operate or install, any equipment for the purposes of supplying
a domestic installation, where a supply from a Supply Authority is available.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 12-09-2002).]

Sheesh... And I was under the illusion that NZ might actually be a little more free than the U.K.

Shouldn't that be $.117 KWH? Darn fingers running ahead of the mind again, eh?

The cheapest electricity cost I remember seeing in the U.S. was 3.5 cents per unit in Louisiana. That was about 6 years or so ago though, so it might be a bit more by now. Probably need it that cheap to keep the air-con running in summer down there, especially for those sun-birds moving in from more northerly latitudes!

Re the REP, I understand there was a similar post-WWII rural electrification program in Ireland. I'm not sure if there are any details about that on the ESB website -- I'll check.

Edit: Couldn't find much on-line at the moment in the ESB site itself, but I found this item which was pulled from the ESB archives:
http://www.quietmancelebrations.com/esb.htm

Here's another story found during the search that you might find amusing. Compare these events of 50 years ago with the boom in Ireland in recent years of high-tech businesses:
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~abbeydorney/book/page2.html


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-09-2002).]

oops...yup $.117.....

Paul,
It was interesting to see that once the '76
Regs were repealed, in 92, the arms of the regulators, were wide open to anyone who wanted to install any of this sort of equipment.
Because, for reasons of Civil Defence,or any other Essential service, you had to ask permission, from the general Manager of the
Electricity Corporation, to even have these
protected by a Generator.
In my opinion, this Government owned Corporation, had way too much power(this is not a pun),but it was good to see that they lost it in the end.
We have a lot more freedom, these days, it was like living in the old Russia.

How on earth did they figure that this relates to civil defense?

If I want to install a backup generator or or PV/battery system or whatever, as far I as I'm concerned the govt. has no right to stop me from doing so.

As a matter of interest, did anyone ever challange this law, or was anyone ever prosecuted for breaking it?

Sorry Paul,
I think that I should have worded that better.
It was only Civil Defence and Hospitals and
other Essential Services, that were allowed
to have Backup(No-Break) systems, even for these an application had to be made,I suppose
it was because they wanted to know what could
possibly Back-Feed into the Grid, I am not sure, things are better now, I think!.
Sorry about the confusion.

Ah, now I get it. I just misread your statement (O.K., I was in too much of a hurry and didn't pause at those commas )

Setting up a power grid in your neighborhood is one thing, but I still don't see that the govt. has any right to tell me that I can't try to cater for my own electrical needs.

That reminds me: Do you ever run into those people who want to set up their own generator purely because they are suffering from the delusion that it will be cheaper than paying the local PoCo? (I mean cheaper per unit, not any considerations over how much it would cost to get lines installed).



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 12-12-2002).]

Oh yes, Paul, there are people over here who have an aversion to paying a Power company, for services like providing the power lines into thier houses, maintenance of the lines, that feed thier street, you name it, I've heard it all.
A lot of these people are part of the New Age
movement, who are against the EMF's from the normal AC supply, try and explain that all Electrical supplies create EMF's, you will lose, they are just one-eyed, somehow DC is
better, in thier opinion, it does not create
an EMF.Bull!

Trumpy -- some are trying hard to make a ruble at it... http://www.lessemf.com/personal.html

Order your "SafeGuard APRON" and "FARADAY CANOPY KIT" now!

I can understand static dissipative clothing (for working with very sensitive electronic components).

And during a dry cold winter I've considered attaching a little wire or chain from my pant's cuff to ground me (every time I touch an iron or brass doorknob I get zapped) - carpets all over the place.

There was one instance where a co-worker's 2-way pager (those alpha numeric doo-hickeys with a little keyboard) got fried from a static discharge!

But for the life of me....a bed canopy made out of shielding material? Hmmm...

I wonder if all those bad dreams I get is because of the stray EMF fields from the pillow speaker I use to listen to late night radio shows!!! Oh wait...that was an ultra-religious station I had tuned into by accident

Paul,
I think that it may be pertainent, to get back to the topic at hand.
Living off of the Grid supply has been a hobby in the NZ/Australia for a number of years over here, now that a few people have taken up Alternative Energies( mainly Solar
heating of water).
Ever heard of Solar Cooking, Paul?, its really good if you have good sunshine around midday.
Want to know any more?, you know where to ask.ECN.

Yes, I've heard of solar cooking, although I've never tried it. First requirement is probably to move out of the U.K.......

Paul,
The beauty of solar cooking, is that you do not require a great deal of sunlight,
you use a parabolic dish to concentrate the suns rays, toward your fry-pan, etc.

Yep, I realize it doesn't need that much sunlight! My tongue was just firmly-in-cheek in view of the U.K.'s notorious weather. As one visiting American put it many years ago, "Britain doesn't have a climate, just a series of weather."

There have been some designs for passive solar houses, and even a few such homes built as experimental projects. Heat pumps have been used in some, although these have yet to become widely known in this country.

A few people have even started to adopt ideas such as laying grass on the roof (Norwegian style) and using triple-glazing.

I think the biggest obstacle to adopting some of these more unconventional (from a British standpoint) designs is the attitude of many local councils, who will not approve plans for anything other than the boring little brick boxes that they want to see built.

There was a report a couple of years ago which stated that the average British household in southern England spent more on winter heating than the average home in central Sweden. Considering the difference in winter temperatures, it shows just how lacking we are, C-H will probablu have something to say about this one!

[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-03-2003).]

I don't want to insult anyone, but I've got some very sharp comments about traditional single glazed US/British sash windows (the guillotine type) in mind. Continental European windows have always been double glazed (except for some cheap bathroom windows).

I have followed the 'renewable energy' clic here for a decade, they have been buffaloed and made to look like granola crunching sandal wearing basket weavers by the very same political hamheads that would tout 'renewables' as legislative fodder.

Nice to see a country who's actions speak louder than words here.....


perhaps this could serve as example??

Wow -- A 3300-ft. tower and 32 turbines! It sounds like a project straight out of the works of Robert Heinlein or Arthur C. Clarke, but then science-fiction has a habit of turning into science-fact, given enough time.

I can just imagine the howls of protest if such a project were planned in England. There's an experimental windfarm about 10 miles down the coast from me, consisting of ten small wind turbines. Some people here are most unhappy about it "spoiling the countryside." I wonder if they'd prefer us to just keep building more conventional power stations to add to the pollution? Or are they going to give up their ever expanding range of power-hungry gadgets to keep peak demand down?

Ranger,
The double-hung "sash" window has been something of a dying breed in England for many years. You'll still find them in old Victorian houses (of which there are thousands), but it's unusual to see them in the average house built since the 1930s. Various styles of casement windows are the norm now. They're still much more popular in America, of course.

BJ,
Sorry, but I never had a decent look at the site, that you tendered, until NOW.
How silly can you get, to think that a certain suit and a hat, would protect all of us against, the effects of EMF's.
We are all exposed to these EMF's, they "cut"
our bodies every single day, they as a rule, do not cause us any harm, but they do to Electronic Equipment, hence the EMC laws.
If the case of the "Greenies", was taken seriously, we would ban all Radio,TV and other such communications and the reticulation of Electricity to everyone.
Where would this leave us, I present this
question!.

Trumpy — We can only hope that someday an unbiased statistical study will conclude that worrying about "currents of death" causes greater health problems than the "currents" themselves.

Bjarney,
betcha OSHA would require worry beads.....

Bjarney,
So true, mate!.
I'm over it!.

Sparky,
That's an interesting concept!
How should these be used?, if I may ask.

I tend to feel the same way about many of today's health scares.

Paul,
It seems to me, that anything that we might enjoy or have to work with, either causes Heart Disease, The Big C or Cholestrol(?).
Did you guys, in the UK have the big scare over eating Eggs?, they were riddled with
Cholestrol, and we were warned not to eat any more than 2 in one meal, now however, they are mooted as a "health food", as long as they are "free-range" and are "cruelty-
free".
Who are these people who make these announcements?, what a pack of losers!
It's my life and I'll live it how I like!.

Yes, the great egg scare took place here as well. 40 years ago we had the "Go to work on an egg" campaign to tell everyone how good eggs were for you!

If everyone avoided eating everything that the govt. has announced to be "bad" in the last few years, then we'd all starve!

Paul,
I certainly hear you there,mate!.
There was a scare over here, with eating things like Meat, Fried chips, you name it.
It was all these do-gooders, telling us that if we ate this sort of food we would die early death's.
They recommended that we eat heaps of Green vegetables, salads, use olive oil to cook with and never eat Fish and Chips, as they are the food of the Devil (just kidding!).
It's a wonder that they didn't tell us to hug the odd tree, too!.