This is a new panel which has been fitted to an older installation. I almost couldn't believe my eyes when I took off the cover!

Look at the top terminals of the circuit breakers. No wires!



Hmm, curious. Wonder where all those hots from the branch circuits go then......

Ah, here they are:


Yes, somebody put all of them on to the busbar side of the breakers!


Here's a closer look at the breakers used in this panel:



The bottom terminal is dual-purpose: It can be clamped onto a busbar or wired separately.

Somebody must have spent a fair bit of time manipulating all those wires into place behind that busbar into the wire terminal.





[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-22-2002).]

one would think it obvious, or at least obvious to a tradesman as to load placement...

Paul,
If you've ever read the history of the ground wire and how we progressed from ungrounded to grounded, the same rule applies: It would only be important in the event of a problem, therefore, proper trade practices installed by competent tradesmen mean those breakers are unnecessary.
We don't count mice, heat, age, deteriation, etc.. You see, we didn't tell you, but in THIS country we have none of those problems.

Thousands of miles (kilometers?) away, yet so many similarities.

Paul-

Do the different handle colors on the breakers have any significance (ie different amperage)?

It doesnt appear that this consumer unit (I love calling it that! ) has much room for wiring, or "wire bending space" as we would say over here. I guess that doesn't matter, since your wires are all stranded, correct?

BTW, what are the dimensions of these panels? (In Imperial units, of course!)

Paul, you are right, this person had to be dedicated to fish all those conductors in.

Do you think they were leaving the top screws for future use.

Roger

Hey George,
Which part of Utopia are you living in? Can we all join you?!

Went back today to fix the problems and couldn't resist taking another snap as I stripped the panel for rewiring:


Aren't all those red wires neatly looped through the holes?!

By the way, the original reason for the callout was a faulty main GFI which would not reset.

Peter,
Yes, on this particular range of C/Bs the handles are color-coded to the current rating: White=6A, gray=10A, blue=16A, yellow=20A, red=32A, orange=40A.

These colors are based on those used on cartridge fuses and rewireable fuse carriers for many years: White=5A, blue=15A, yellow=20A, red=30A. (Note how 5, 15, and 30 have changed to 6, 16, and 32A to line up with common European standards.)

A main GFI can be substituted for the main switch on this panel (in fact this is what I did rather than just replace the separate GFI -- It requires a different busbar assembly though, hence my having to strip the panel right back).

The "consumer unit" above is about 9.5 by 8.5 inches, and as you can see from the busbar it has room for up to 7 branch circuits.

There isn't a lot of room to work in many of these panels. This is one of my major criticisms of many British devices, certainly compared to their much more spacious American equivalents.

Most of our older cable was stranded, but the newer metric sizes are solid in the smaller sizes (and harder to work). I'll post a separate thread on this when I get time.

P.S. Re a thread in the general area about what order breakers are installed, many people here fit the highest rated C/B(s) next to the main and then go in descending order. As you can see from the handle colors, this is not such an installation. (Not that in this case it made much difference, of course!)


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-23-2002).]

A very interesting find, pauluk. Offhand, I can't imagine a case where one breaker terminal with the seeming relative difficulty of accommodating cable AND bus wouldn’t be a dead giveaway to even an executive junior assistant home-repair-store trainee expert.

The breaker poles do make spiffy "terminal blocks."


 


[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 07-23-2002).]

I have inspected trailers brought to jobsite with (I think) Bryant breakers which are also color coded, I guess same principle, they should make them match the new color coded romex red wire/red breaker THAT would take the guess work out for DIY'ers.

Paul, come on in theres plenty of room.

It's simply there is not,
a more congenial spot,
for happy ever aftering than..........


[This message has been edited by George Corron (edited 07-23-2002).]

Just so long as nobody decides that the color of the handle should be matched by the color of the wire connected to the C/B!

That could really make for some interesting wiring, and after seeing this I'm not sure there wouldn't be somebody who'd try it!

Austrian breaker handles are always color coded. With the old cartridge fuses green was 6 A (not available any more), 10 A red (also no breakers) 13 A beige (breakers only) 16 A grey, 20 A blue, 25 A yellow.

Your Austrian color code sounds very similar to that listed for fuses in Ireland:
green=6A, red=10A, brown=16A, blue=20A, black=35A.

As somebody once said, the nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from!

Wylex has stopped color-coding the handles on the breakers pictured now, but they still do it on their "standard range."

By the way, Ireland has now started using the "Schuko" plug in addition to the British 13A type.



[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 08-01-2002).]

Definitely interesting!

I just came back from a one week Italy vacation where I noticed that all the light switches were mounted down = on.

That's the same as light switches here: down=on.

As you can see from the pics above, circuit breakers are up=on. Main switches have changed over the years: The pre-war side-handle types were up=on. Then the post-WWII consumer units went to down=on. Now with the use of circuit-breakers becoming more common, the main switches are changing back to up=on, as above.

I find the American approach of up=on for everything far more logical. And although I grew up with light switches being down for on, having gotten used to it the other way in the States, I prefer up=on.

I stumbled across an old posting from Paul:


Tell me more! Are the Irish switching to radials? If so, are they using 16 or 20A? Why Schuko? When?

Wish I could find some more information on this, but I'm afraid I don't have any more details.

I just saw a passing reference that the Schuko plug and receptacle are now being used. I assume that means that they're wiring them on 16 or 20A radial branches. (I sure hope people aren't just putting them on existing 30A rings!)

I don't know when these were introduced into Irish standards, or indeed if they are not officially introduced but just being used by common practice. I was in Ireland in 1998, and don't recall seeing any in use then.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 09-23-2002).]

I found a picture of a Danish panel. Who needs breakers when you can have fuses on a DIN rail?




[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 10-17-2002).]

Wow C-H...

That is one cool panelboard!

The only thing similar in the US are these, and they are sold for OEM use.
http://www.boltswitch.com/O-1374.pdf http://www.boltswitch.com/O-1352.pdf http://www.boltswitch.com/O-1473.pdf

Interesting photo, C-H.

I'm trying to work out the color coding used in Denmark. As per the common Euro-standard, I'm assuming that the light blue is neutral, and you can just see the green/yellow earth wires at the back (top left).

From the main cables entering the GFI (bottom right) I would say the phases are black, red, gray, although from one of the switch/fuse blocks it could be black, red, white.

It gets a bit confusing after that, as one block seems to have white for all three phases, and one even seems to be using green as a phase! I notice the cables linking the GFI to each fuse block seem to be black for everything, too!

I blew up the pic to twice the size and saw the following: At the upper left block there's a green, a red and a yellow wire. The next block has three blacks. In the background there are brown wires lurking around.
The connectors look like wirenuts with screws.
Strange mix!

Great picture C-H!
I thought some of our British consumer units were tight for wiring room until I saw this, and this is 3 phase too.
Like Paul, I can't get my head around the colour code, it appears random to UK sparks, we are used to seeing 5 different colours only.

My guess is that it is an old panel with old colour code. Or rather - lack thereof. Can anybody see any grounding?

The connectors are "u-boats", so nicknamed because of their shape. The standard size holds three 2.5 mm2 wires.

David: If you think this is tight, you should see the 2x2 inch junction boxes used for four or even five incoming cables. Or the 1 1/2 inch boxes...

[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 10-19-2002).]

Yeah, there's a ground bus bar with 2 lugs and at least five yellow-green wires cramped in at the top left of the panel. One of these wires is sheathed with grey plastic, so it should be the incoming ground.
On some circuits there are different fuse sizes on the phases.

Still, nothing beats a panel, at least 50x50 cm, located beneath an old-house ceiling (3m or so) filled with diazed fuses of all sizes (guess 6 to 20 amps) and all black cloth wires.
I couldn't take a really close look because said ceiling was partially broken down and I could hear debris coming down all the time. The floor was already covered at least 20 cm high with debris (all the plaster, lathes, some sub floor from above,...
The only thing I did in this room was to take a short look at this panel, take out a light switch, both with a solid helmet on my head, and then run!

I can't make out a gray wire on the ground block, but if it's there, it makes for an interesting conflict with the gray used as a phase on the main GFI at the bottom!

I hadn't notice the different fuse on phase C of the top left unit either, but maybe these are three individual single-phase circuits? Looks like only a single neutral going into that block though.

It also looks as though it's an open back unit with just the mounting rails screwed directly to a plastered wall (David - It brings to mind the open-back Wylex consumer units which are still to be found in great quantities here.).

Another point: Those main incoming conductors bottom right look as though they're just single-insulated cables buried directly in the wall. Or is there perhaps a conduit that we can't see?

You sure are sharp sighted, Ranger. Indeed, there they are. Whatever happened to the old "maximum one ground wire per hole" in the ground bar? (I think the NEC has a similar requirement?)

Different fuses? If the cable is good for 3x13A, I can fit two 10A and one 16A fuse, can't I?

There are also different fuses on the top right block.
No, it's a yellow-green wire with a grey outer sheathing, as it is used in Germany for seperate ground wires directly buried in plaster.
It rather seems to be a cable with the sheathing cut off directly where it comes out of the wall.
Still, a rather strange setup.

Wow, look at all of them pretty colours,
in that panel of C-H.

The two buttons to open and close each switch are another interesting feature that looks strange from an English point of view.

The 0 and 1 markings have been added alongside ON and OFF to many of our switches and breakers though.

I've also seen Ein and Aus used on German radio equipment, and it interesting that ein also means "one."

Tex,
Does ein by itself also mean "in" as well as "one" or "a/an" ? I'm thinking of Eingang and Ausgang for entrance and exit, so I assume that Aus also means "out"? Or am I hopelessly confused?!

Ja, Ich glaub' daß "ein" bedeutet "in" und "aus" bedeutet "out".


[This message has been edited by C-H (edited 10-24-2002).]

No, this isn't directly connected.
"ein Computer" means "a computer", ein also means on. Eingang is something different, which may have been linked in ancient times, but isn't now. Eingang and Ausgang are used as well for "input" and "output" on radio equipment as for "Entrance" and "exit". "Aus" can mean out or off, but also "from" in a different context. "Er ist aus Österreich" means: "He's from Austria". It can mean out (like to put out a fire), or off (switch off a light)

Vielen Dank Tex!

Now you mention it I think I recall seeing Eingang and Ausgang used for input & output.