Going off on a tangent slightly from the overcurrent protection topic:

I have a book here published nearly 25 years ago which indicates that electrocutions at that time were averaging about 100 per year across the country (population approx. 55 million). I'm not sure what the current statistics are on this; I'll see if I can find out.

(By the way, the 100 figure doesn't include executions: We never used the chair here.)

I do know, however, that in the last few years there has been a significant rise in the number of house fires attributed to electrical wiring.

Apparently many of the fires are in NEWER houses, or those which have been refurbished in more recent times, which somewhat goes against the natural tendency to blame old wiring.

I have a possible theory {Enter soapbox mode....]

Most people here naturally believe that as time goes on the regulations become more stringent. However, the current IEE Regs. actually allow cables to run at higher currents and temperatures than in the past.

If grouping and ambient temperature derating factors are applied, then the figure come out more equal, but the basic rating for a single cable, open to air is higher now than ever before.

It's also in the last 15 to 20 years or so that energy efficiency and extra insulation has become a big thing here. The guy stuffing fiberglass around everything he can find in the attic doesn't know - much less care - about derating factors and just covers up everything in sight.

Couple all that with the sometimes attrocious DIY extensions and incorrect fusing, and I wouldn't mind betting that THAT is the reason for the big increase in fires. Just my opinion, of course.

OK, [Exit soapboax].

The various postings concerning things like 1850w hair dryers are instances supporting your observations, Paul.

Paul,

Besides the items that you mentioned, I think that many consumers are finding an increasing "comfort" with Electricity that might allow them to try 'fooling around with Electric' This is also fueled by the plethora of DIY resources that have been pushed upon the public recently promising them that they really can do it themselves. It's too bad that the dangers don't get equal time. But I guess that wouldn't help them sell their products.

Bill

There are many factors that sum up to an electrical mishap which are not always evident having only a cellarhole to view.

I think you make a very valid point here. Our TV screens are full of such DIY shows these days.

A short while ago I happened to see a DIY electrical video tape in my local library. It offered "easy to view & understand" step-by-step guidance for such things as adding an extra socket, fitting wall lights, etc., so out of curiosity I borrowed it to watch.

One or two items were fairly easy to follow, but a lot of the "easy step-by-step guidance" was just going to lead people into big trouble as far as I could see.

One section sticks in my mind: How to add a switch to convert a ceiling light to 2-way (3-way) switching & add wall lights at the same time.

First time through I was completely confused, so I hit rewind & watched again. And again. In the end, I had to sit down with pencil & paper, and sketch out what was going on, using pause and review regularly. Even then I had to watch it slowly about five times to figure out what they were doing.

Now if it took me that long, however is the average DIYer going to understand it? The section in question also made the assumption that the existing wiring was done in one certain way, with no mention of the fact that a house may be wired differently.

Believe it or not, the final section launched into an attempted explanation of service bonding.

I felt that the whole approach was so poorly conceived, that when I returned the tape, I actually voiced my concerns to the head librarian & suggested that the tape be withdrawn before somebody got hurt.

........add to it all the DYI books, and TV shows. i complain about all the DYI boo-boo's i have to fix , the irony being the more the cocept is pushed the busier i am

(By the way, the 100 figure doesn't include executions: We never used the chair here.)

hey...remember 'the Green Mile", guess it really happened!!!


1990: The first in a string of botched electrocutions in Florida spurs public outrage at the practice: Six-inch flames erupted from Jesse Tafero's head because prison officials replaced the worn-out sponge in the chair's head electrode with a synthetic household sponge, which caught fire.

Yes,I've seen that report on a website. I understand they've had quite a lot of trouble with "Old Sparky" in Fla. recently which prompted the state legislature to follow the example of many others and introduce lethal injection.

Saw one report (Alabama, I think) where on the first try a warden said they'd got the cables to the chair wired wrong back to the control gear.

One connection to head, one to ankle: Must take a lot of practice to be able to get that wrong!

Its like anything else, if you only do it once every couple years, it is tough to get it right the first time. Solution ? Practice makes perfect. My God, they use what, 24kv, how in the world can they screw that up.

All the reports I've seen say between about 1700 and 2400 volts with a resulting current of 4 to 6A. Amazing how low the resistance of a human body can be, but as you say, it seems incredible that they sometimes need 2, 3, or even more jolts.

Can just anyone buy electrical equipment in the U.S.? Or do you have to have a license to purchase breakers, panels, etc.?

>Can just anyone buy electrical equipment in the U.S.?

For the most part, yes.

You have to know where to get it. But there are no restrictions or controls. You have to be licensed for CFCs, certain pesticides, certain explosives, and pharmaceuticals.

But electrical equipment is sold in hardware stores, outlets, and home centers all over.

Same in the U.K. - Anybody can buy anything from a light bulb to a 3-phase distribution panel with no restrictions whatsoever.

yuppy, we're all free to join in here;
http://www.darwinawards.com/index.htm

Just the other day my Father was telling me about how things in the trade were, back in 1956-57 [8 years prior to me being hatched ].
Said that there was maybe only one wholesale house in So Cal. that would sell to the public. All others required the buyer to be a licensed sparky, or purchasing agent of licensed sparky firm [AKA Big Fault Electric, Inc.]. No home depots, lows, home clubs [remember these?]. Not sure what hardware stores carried.
Also said that a box of Romex was the same price as today. So figuring that $10 could keep you going all week in fuel, food, etc. that box of Romex must have been like GOLD!!! Probably like paying $500 per box today!

The open market has kept some prices reasonable and opened doors for many small businesses - both in the trade and in the manufacturing of materials, and that's always good.

Too bad there's not more emphasis placed on DIY'er safety and training, than just on the end result of doing it yourself. That kind of gives a false impression to people about just how serious construction related work really is, and the fact that the bare bones codes of the NEC and UBC aren't just to make people have to fork out more cash, simply to satisfy an inspector! [who hasn't heard that one 1K times?].

Many DIY'ers are able to do good, safe, dependable work. Some aren't. All should have knowledge of the hows and whys regarding that particular installation.

The guy who wants to add French doors in an existing wall should know more than "it's simple to do" and "I want French Doors NOW!", less the house divided cannot stand [load bearing humor attempt].

So to sum it up, Yes, I believe that using Shampoo, Soap and water while in the shower, can and will definitely have good results, as compared to just standing near the shower, or running around inside the shower with no water on.
80% of the Scientists polled agree on this theory...

Scott SET

The scary thing is that these people have the right to vote, drive a car, operate machinery, etc.

Two guys in a village where I used to live "naturally selected" themselves by electricity. The idiots tried to take down an 18 ft. CB antenna atop a 20 ft. mast, all in one piece, above their heads, while standing on an aluminum ladder in a tree.

The whole lot came crashing down into the adjacent field - right on to 11kV power lines.

The coroner's verdict was "Death my misadventure," but I think a better verdict might have been "Electrocution by own stupidity."

I will agree with all of your points. I may be known to you as an " informed DIY'er". There is a simple rule to follow in whatever your profession or pastime: Do what you know-if you don't know, find someone who does. In Ontario, and as far as I know, the rest of Canada, excluding Quebec, I can go to my local hardware store around the corner, and buy a 200 amp combination panel with an assortment of breakers, for around $200+ (C$)and install it myself (I don't.)There is no substitute for the proper education, however, I feel that there is a place for people who wish to educate themselves whatever the field. I have on many occasions, corrected the work of (licensed)'Electricians', and I gain a great deal of satisfaction from my attention to detail, and my complete regard for the code (within my experience.)My hat is off to all of you out there who have dedicated a great deal of time and brain power to a subject that is voodoo, at best, to most people. I think that a DIY'er (like myself) is capable of quality, safe work, but we must be wary of being sucked into a false sense of security. I apologize for going off on a rant on a BBS which is really dedicated to the pro's, but I have learned much just by 'listening in'. Thank you all.

Mickky,

If you've seen some of my other posts, you'll know that in the U.K. there's no such thing as a licensed electrician. There are various organizations that offer certification of competency, but it's not mandatory. For those who work mostly on residential, like myself, 99% of people have no idea of the alphabet soup of letters anyway, so it's not worth the hassle & expense.

I know of some certified electricians who don't like the idea of ANY DIYer working on wiring, but I have no quarrel with the responsible DIY home-owner who knows his limitations and gets help on anything he doesn't understand.

I started carrying out wiring jobs in my own & my parents' homes as a DIYer myself. I had the advantage of learning about electricity from my father and reading everything I could find on the subject from the age of 5 onwards. Other kids were out playing ball; I was eading tech. books and building radios.

I have to say that plenty of DIY here is done to a high standard by people who have taken the trouble to read, ask questions,, and learn. Much of it is done by home-owners who take great pride in their home, and the standard of workmanship is quite often far higher than that of a professional.

The people I don't like are the ones who THINK they know everything, and when they get stuck they just guess instead of asking for help. They're usually the ones who figure out things like "It works so it must be safe" or "I know my wiring is OK, so it doesn't matter about using fuses." It these people who often can't even make a neat job of wiring a plug.

I have to say too, that I've also seen plenty of work done by certified electricians that varies from poor to downright dangerous.

So I for one would certainly never try to put down all DIYers. The mere fact that you're here asking questions indicates the desire to learn and to do the job properly. None of us ever stops learning.

I gather that they like to do must things differently in Quebec.

It amuses me that the Quebec stop signs say "ARRET", yet in France where the only official language is French, the signs actually say "STOP" in English.

mickky,

For the record, I wouldn't say that we're only dedicated to the Pros here. Anyone that wants to know things like "Is it safe?" and "How can I do it Safer?" is welcome. We don't want to give basic wiring instruction to novices for many reasons. A little knowledge in the hands of some can be more Dangerous than none at all. I think that, by far, the most important thing to learn about Electricity is to respect it, and learn how to do things right (and safe) before trying to work with it. Many people just don't 'get it'. You seem to be a 'cut above' the average DIY person and that's an admirable thing.


Bill

Thanks, Bill and Paul et al...
I think I must have sounded like I was on a rant(!)And, yep, you're right about a little knowledge...I think the perception of a lot of homeowners is that it's the same as building a deck-"how hard can it be?"(famous last words) Maybe it's the fact that they are required to hire professionals at a high price in some locales that tempts them to try things best left to the pro's, and save themselves some $.
I've watched with interest the controversy over the hi-watt hairdryers, etc. Do any of the members of this BB have some advisory powers vis-a-vis manufacturing specs or code articles where electrical appliances are concerned?If not, how is this done? Is UL/CSA stamp the final word? I'm just curious, and thanks again.

[This message has been edited by mickky (edited 09-09-2001).]

It amuses me that the Quebec stop signs say "ARRET", yet in France where the only official language is French, the signs actually say "STOP" in English. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah; never could figure that one out, and I was born and raised there!A few years ago, you could wire your whole house yourself there, today, if you buy a ceiling fixture, the instructions say in big, bold letters: "In the Province of Quebec, this fixture must be installed by a qualified electrician.In French Only."

(Just kidding about that last bit...!)

Ah.... Cette luminaire doit etre installer par un electricien qui parle le francais seulement..... (Apologies for my poor French!)

The "Health & Safety at Work" legislation here over the last 10 years or so has now made compliance with IEE Wiring Regulations mandatory for just about all commercial buildings. There's nothing to say who can or cannot carry out the work though, just that it must comply with the IEE Regs.

The main enforcement is from the "Health & Safety Inspectorate" who now have draconian powers (e.g. shutting down a factory because they still had signs which just said "FIRE EXIT" instead of the silly new pictogram versions). It's rumored that some of these guys are descendants of gestapo officers....

As I've said elsewhere though, as far as residential is concerned, there is no requirement to follow the IEE Regs. and anyone can carry out work. It's slightly different up in Scotland, because they have some laws which are different to English law.

Not that bad, Paul...!

So what's the UK equivalent to UL/CSA? And how do things get changed there? Is it handled by the EC? My apologies if you've answered this elsewhere!

Merci beaucoup Monsieur.....

Our equivalent of UL or CSA is the BSI (British Standards Institute). They publish standards specifications for electrical, plumbing, building materials, and a whole range of other everyday things.
Each particular specification is given a British Standards number, e.g. the standard for our normal 13-amp plug is BS1363. Items meeting the appropriate standard can display the BSI "Kitemark" sign.

A lot of the British Standards are set or modified by suggestion, discussion, etc. with the various associations, trade groups, and so on.

The EC is having more of an influence in recent years (I don't doubt the chief EC bureaucrats would like to take over completely). Many standards are now decided upon my a joint effort of the BSI and their counterparts in other countries. We're seeing new specificatios along the lines of BS:EN 12345 now, where the "EN" means "European Norm."

Britain is gradually adopting many Continental practices as we all converge: Our 5, 15, and 30A circuit breakers are disappearing in favor of the European 6, 16, and 32A standards for example.

There are still a lot of areas where the national institutes are unable to agree though.

Well beings we're talking about Quebec here...In Canada we write an interprovincial ticket that(in Alberta)if we get 70% on, we're allowed to work in any province in Canada as a Journeyman Electrician. Except of course Quebec. Even though the province is 50% english you still have to write the interprovincial test in French.

You mean that it's impossible to take the test in English in Quebec? Doesn't Canada's natioal govt. have something to say about that? I thought both English & French were official languages throughout the whole country.

Funny isnt it? But our trades are administered by the Provincial Government and not the National. At the end of our fourth term of school the Interprovincial test we write is the same in every province and territory(except Quebec). Our code book is also recognized and adopted by all the provinces but each province has its own addendums. Most of our inspections too are also goverened by the province and different areas(big cities) have rules over and above the province.

I'm sure one of our American friends will confirm this, but as I understand it in the U.S. it is the individual STATE laws which quote the NEC, so I guess it's similar in principle. (Yes, I know counties & cities can then add their own requirements.)

Our local govts. in Britain can pass local ordinances, called "bye-laws," but they've never extended to electrical work.

In fact many local bye-laws are treated as a joke and never enforced: Things like 19th century bye-laws making it illegal to hang out washing before 8 a.m. or something similar. Technically though, they're still in force.

Paul said:
How on earth Paul could you take a silly by-law like that seriously?.

We don't!

There are apparently many old laws still on statute books around the world which have not actually been enforced for decades or even centuries.

Until fairly recently, there was an old law in England which required any motor vehicle driving along a public road to have a man carrying a red flag to walk in front of it!

In the area where I lived in the 1980s there was somebody who was trying to get a neighbor into court on some old witchcraft law that had never been repealed. It was like something you imagine out of 17th century Salem!

Some more examples

Mike, You must take the prize for resurrecting old posts!

Old laws... There was a clean-up, in the early seventies, of some of these anachronistic gems. Apparently up until that time, the Isle of Man still carried a statute that required a Manxman to kill a Scotsman on sight!! This could have ruined the northern tourist trade and put the Ardrossan sailings seriously in jeopardy!

Checking your site Paul, the UK courts threw out an appeal by a furniture chain that only sold carrots on a Sunday (at a premium price) but gave away a free lounge suite!

Hutch,
I like to wander around the older ECN topics and have a look at what was going on back then, and if it is appropriate or not, reply to it, prizes or not, there are stillsome real gems!.

Hey Paul,
It's odd that you should mention Witchcraft,
We have a guy over here(not sure if you've heard of him) he is called the Wizard of Christchurch, later named the Wizard of New Zealand.
But, there was a church that moved in down the road from his house and incited this really old law that said that there was to be no agent of the Devil, within 3km of a church building (this law dates back to 1861).
Oddly enough the Wizards house burned down 2 days later, under suspicions of arson.
He lost a whole heap of really old books, part of a collection that he had been building for 40-50 years.

On the DIY topic. I know that most reasonable electrical wholesalers around here in Ireland simply will not sell a lot of gear to anyone other than electricians. They'll sell sockets, cable, trunking, plugs, etc etc but they're unlikely to hand you a 3 phase distribution board over the counter.

There may potentially be a future problem as retailers increasingly have a duty of care and may be required to provide full instructions with anything they sell. So I can see the "trade only" policy getting a lot tighter if any law suits do happen when someone installs their own Hager board and burns down their house.

Yes, I think I read about him in a NZ travel guide. Doesn't he get dressed up in wizard's garb and go around the streets of Christchurch?

* Totally irrelevant, but while on the subject of the SOuth Island:

Question on a recent general knowledge show here:
What city in the South Island of New Zealand is known as the Edinburgh of the South?

Contestant's answer: Auckland!

Paul,
The Wizard of Christchurch has his own podium in Cathedral Square, from there at about 11am, he gives his ideas on the world, casts spells and makes rain, in any place in the world that he deems it necessary. (If it rained at your place today, this guy is more than likely to blame!)
There was a big stir over here a few years back, during the Census survey, he refused to be counted as a Citizen of NZ and even rowed out to the edge of the 150 mile Economic Zone, to avoid the thing!.
The guy is a legend, I realise he's a wee bit different, but hey what would life be like, if we were all the same, eh?.

There seems to be a growing number of people these days whose main attitude toward the government is simply "Leave me alone."

Seeing the intrusive way the government tries to keep track of everyone and everything these days, I admit to having become one of those people in recent years.

I'd like an opt-out clause: Stop charging me exorbitant taxes and putting ever-more Draconian laws into place, and in return I will defend my own property, look after myself as I see fit, and I will not request welfare payments or other government hand-outs.

If only..........