I promised you guys a description of our typical domestic service entrance. Pity I'm not able to post some pics, but nevermind.....

Meters are usually located outside on all new homes now, but until quite recently standard practice was for all meters to be inside the property. Just thought I'd explain that first.

The meter and associated equipment is usually mounted on a wooden board about 18 inches square.

On older property in urban areas, the service was generally from an armored underground cable and the board mounted close to the entrance point on the ground floor, often in a cupboard. (Basements are much rarer here than in the U.S., but some old Victorian houses with a coal cellar had the service fitted down in the cellar.)

Most rural property was served with overhead lines. A bracket with two porcelain insulators is used to terinate the pair of supply lines (the neutral often being bare up to this point). From there, two cables with a double layer of PVC insulation run down and through the wall to the board, in this case normally mounted at high level on the ground floor.

The newest system, now used in all areas, has a PVC sheathed cable with center "live" wire and a concentric neutral. Even where overhead distribution is employed, these new feeders are run underground to the nearest pole.

The armored cable, concentric cable, or two single cables terminate at a service block containing the main fuse and a neutral link. (On overhead systems with separate line/neutral cables, these were often separate.) Most new services are 100A, but a lot of older 80, 60, and even some 40A services are still in use.

On installations using PME (see my other posts), this neutral link is also the point at which the main grounding lead is connected to the neutral.

From here, two double PVC insulated cables link to the meter, which has large screw terminals instead of being a plug-in type. Two more similar cables exit. Everything up to this point is the property of, is installed by, and is maintained by the utility co. The meter case, terminal cover, and main fuse are all sealed. Note that none of this wiring is in conduit or raceway.

On the simplest installations, the cables then continue to a "consumer unit" which contains a main switch and the individual fuses or breakers. In cases where an ELCB is fitted, this is wired between the meter and the consumer unit. On new installations needing a whole-house ELCB/GFCI, this is more usually fitted in the consumer unit where it takes the place of the main switch.

Where outside meters are used, a white plastic (ABS) box with a door is fitted on or set into an exterior wall to hold the board for the meter and service block/fuse. The remaining equipment is still fitted inside the building.

This is all for a basic service; many homes have dual-tariff meters and PoCo-owned timers etc. to provide low-rate night service.

Meters are usually located outside on all new homes now, but until quite recently standard practice was for all meters to be inside the property.
LOL! it's just about the opposite for us here, at least on the east coast. Those meter readers don't want to knock on doors.

The newest system, now used in all areas, has a PVC sheathed cable with center "live" wire and a concentric neutral
So, each individual conductor has it's own nuetral?

On installations using PME (see my other posts), this neutral link is also the point at which the main grounding lead is connected to the neutral.
well that sounds like our setup...i am confused...is this the norm? Is there any nuetral isolation back to the X-former?

Everything up to this point is the property of, is installed by, and is maintained by the utility co.
sounds like here also, does the utility allow an electrician to yank the meter to change a panel there?

Paul;
please excuse all my quoting of you, I type slow

I think they've started going for outside meters here for the same reason. More houses are often empty a lot these days (two-income families etc.), more so than in the past, and it saves the meter reader a lot of time.

Some of the old service entrances really were in awkward places, and meter readers always carried a flashlight. When at the back of a cupboard, the meter and main panel often got hidden behind a ton of junk.

It made for some gags in films though: Husband returns early, ruffled guy crawls out from under bed or inside wardrobe and says "They really put those meters in some funny places!"


So, each individual conductor has it's own nuetral?

No. Remember that residential service here in only 2-wire, so there's only one "hot" line (at 240V to ground).

And for 3-ph. commercial service, the new cables have the 3 phase wires inside a single concentric neutral.


well that sounds like our setup...i am confused...is this the norm? Is there any

There is NO link between neutral & ground at the customer's premises, EXCEPT when the PME system is in use. I hope I've clarified this in my other msgs, but yell if you're still confused!

does the utility allow an electrician to yank the meter to change a panel there?

Most definitely not! If someone broke a seal to pull the main fuse in a genuine emergency (e.g. flames coming out of the meter/panel!) and then notified the Co. immediately, I'm pretty sure they'd accept it, but otherwise they get quite annoyed. Technically, it's a criminal offense for anyone but the PoCo. to break any of the seals.

I take it that you can do this, at least in your area?

please excuse all my quoting of you, I type slow

"Pas de probleme," as they say in France!

There is NO link between neutral & ground at the customer's premises, EXCEPT when the PME system is in use. I hope I've clarified this in my other msgs, but yell if you're still confused!

Thanks, sorry for the fuss. The 'dual-usage' of a conductor as both N & G here in service entrance wire creates a lot of confusion per application of some of the finer NEC requirements. I have been made to understand that the ultimate 'fix' for much of this would be said isolation back to the X-former.

I take it that you can do this, at least in your area?

well yes, we can. there are some power co. guys that get a bit cranky, due to thier own internal rules that state THEY are to be the only ones.
Myself, I have reasearched the legislation here down to a state ( I am in Vermont) statues that basically say that any malicious tampering of utilities is unlawful.
I cannot wait for the local utilities to schedule every disconnect/reconnect, meter pull etc, I would not make a living very easy chasing them ( they can be rather non-committal) so I do as i please, but I usually fess' up as to the work done , lest they thing there is cause for such tampering.


Anyhow, thanks for the insight over there,

one more thing....

what does power cost there?

we do KWH ( kilo-watt hours) here

No problem. The various sytems used often create cnfusion for the uninitiated here, along with the conversion process of recent years.

In my area (Eastern Energy) all of the LV distribution systems have now been converted to PME (i.e. the extra ground rods have been installed by the utility), but there's no obligation for anyone to change their existing grounding arrangemets. It simply means that grounding to the neutral is now available as an option for everyone.

Note however, that our IEE Regs. specify stricter bonding requirements for water, gas pipes etc. if a house uses PME grounding, to safeguard against the effects of a lost incoming neutral.


The open layout of our residential service entrance coupled with the all-insulated design of many domestic panels means that it's sometimes possible to do a "hot" changeover and avoid a utility call-out, which is billed at about 30 pounds (U.S. $45) in this area.

If the service fuse has to be pulled, I usually try to get everything ready for the swap and get the guy to wait 20 mins. or so so power can be restored quickly & without a second call-out fee. Most of the "meter men" in this area are happy to do that in exchange for a coffee/cold drink and the chance for a quick break and a friendly chat. Probably different in our big cities these days though.


Electricity's one of the few things which has remained stable in the last few years and hasn't soared in price.

From my latest bill:

Standard cost per kWh 6.51p., 9.8 cents

Night rate 2.78p., 4.2 cents

Plus standing charge £9.88, $14.82
per quarter (3 mo.)

Night rate operates midnight - 7AM in winter, 1AM - 8AM in summer.

This is the Economy 7 system. The basic tariff has a slightly lower quarterly charge, but the full cost per kWh 24 hrs.

Prices vary slightly in other regions,but aren't much dfferent.

P.S. Forgot to mention that you need to add the 5% tax to all those prices. Along with gas service and other domestic fuel, this is the only sales-taxable item which gets a lower rate than the standard 17.5%.

It’s sounds very similar to our system (placing of meters and such). I posted a picture of a Swedish service entrance. This is a rather old one but it’s typical. Big black thing to the right, meter. Below it main fuses and a main switch. In the fuse panel phases are located top to bottom (1,2,3). This particular panel is divided in four 3-phase groups and 9 single. The little box in the middle is a GFCI. This particular service is a bit odd. You can se 3 cables (old nasty steel shielded ones) enter at the bottom. One is from the power company junction in the street the other 2 goes only through the meter panel and down the street to the two neighbouring houses. Very funny I haven’t seen this type of connection before.



[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 08-22-2001).]

Kent,

I had to copy the picture to our site to get it to display. (And I did a little editing)

Many times with the Free Websites they do not let you access a single file like that, presumably because they cannot attach an ad to it. Hopefully We'll have something available here soon where images can be uploaded to the Forum. (It's on the list of things to do) Anyone can still send pictures to me and I will see that they get posted.


Bill
Bill@Electrical-Contractor.net

Kent:

I've never seen a service taken into a house then continued on to other premises. Very strange!

What type of fuses are those in your picture? They look as though they're similar to the older American types fitted on an Edison screw (light bulb) base.

We've never used that type of fuse here.

Kent;
fairly scary looking!
What is the thing on right of the the box below the meter, bettwen all the stickers. Is that a switch?

Kent,

Are these manufactured in Sweden for the domestic market there, or do some of the international companies such as GE and the like make them also? This is a very interesting setup!

kent,

When I look at this I feel as if I'm looking at pictures of Mars or something! ( ).
This is very different than anything I've ever seen. As Paul had commented, the first thing that comes to mind is the part about the service coming in and then continuing to other Houses.
Here, we can't even have an overhead service line cross over someone elses' property!

Can't wait to see more!

Bill

I don't know about Sweden, but we have one or two names in the U.K. that would be familiar to you. Both GE and Square D are now selling panels/breakers and other switchgear here, though as you might expect it's quite different to their North American equipment.

Hubbell also sell some accessories here, but it's mostly connectors for industrial use, no domestic stuff.

Thanks Bill. Can you post 2 other pictures of panels for me? I’ll mail them to you.

Pauluk, Bill

About the cables going though. This is not normal standard. I can’t figure out why they did it like this. Maybe they wanted to save some cables.

About the fuses. It’s a type of “melt fuse”. The fuse holder (which is what you see in the picture) is like you said similar to a light bulb screw base. I’m not familiar with the name Edison fuse but that maybe what you call them. What kind of fuses do you use if not C/B’s.


Sparky

Correct, it’s the main switch. It’s placed before the main fuses (another odd thing with this unit). I had the pleasure of replacing it (the old one didn’t break all 3 phases). If this had been a normal panel you just loosen the main fuses and work safely. With the switch before the fuses it’s a bit harder. Had to go out in the street to the Power Company junction (we are not allowed in their boxes but we have a key anyway) and remove their fuses. With this odd connection, 3 houses on the same branch I had to cut the power to the neighbour as well.

electure

This particular panel is from, I would guess the 50’ or 60’s. I don’t know who made it but it could be ASEA also known as ABB. Various Swedish companies are still making them but I don’t know if they are used in other parts of the World so I can’t say if , for example GE manufactures them. The increasing use of MCB have put these type of panels a bit to the side but in some cases and by some people they are to prefer.

Have a another picture for you. This time a apartment panel. You have to watch where you put you fingers when working with a “hot” one.







[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 08-23-2001).]

kent,

• Is that item on the left some sort of a Main Disconnect? Does it have any overcurrent protection?
• What is the thing on top?

Bill

Bill!

Is that item on the left some sort of a Main Disconnect? Does it have any overcurrent protection?
Yes that’s the main disconnect. The panels overcurrent protection are the main fuses (16 A for each phase) which can be found at the meter panel. All meters for the different apartments are placed together. A room in the basement is a good place.

What is the thing on top?
I’m not sure which picture you’re referring to. If it’s the one with the cover off so are “the things on top” two
Copper bars. One neutral bar and one ground bar. They are connected together with a type of screw. The two black things on top of the picture (when the cover is still on) are stickers that’s reminds you to tighten the screw properly.

Paul,
There are some interesting comments here,
just thought I would bring this one up again.
Nowadays over here, we are required to re-locate the meters outside, where any serious work happens on the switch-board inside, the likes of changing the Main Switch or replacing the Neutral/Earth busbars or installing a new Main Earthing Lead.
BTW, all of the above work has to be inspected too, before the CoC, can be legally filled out.

There's no requirement to relocate the meter outside here, although some people opt for that if they're spending big money on a complete refit.

In terms of the fuses both of those panels look VERY like what you'd find in an older installation in Ireland.

They're Diazed fuses... nothing very unusual or unique to sweden.

A modern irish panel still retains neozed main fuses.

Single phase - 1 fuse.
three phase - 3 fuses.

They'll be followed by the more modern gear.. RCDs, MCBs etc but are still there JUST INCASE something mechanical sticks.

As for isolating the premises from the mains power. The modern meters have an isolating switch on the bottom to allow electricans to completely change the panel without needing the power company to remove the fuse.

If I ever see a real huge 3ph Diazed panel I really _have_ to take pictures. I can post pics of a 2circuit 1ph one though.
Our diazed elements look slightly different. They're rectangular, mounted vertically, and each fuse has it's own porcelain cover. So you don't have a front cover, only the individual fuses. The phases are usually side by side, on the left you've got the 3 phases, on the right there's the neutral. 3ph circuit have a connector block on the neutral, plastic, porcelaine or Pertinax (no idea how that's called in English) with 2 screws and a solid metal link, all open. 1ph circuits are distributed across the phases in a zigzag pattern, after some time the pattern becomes quite random. Ground bus bar is usually at the top, like in the pictures.
Service arrangements vary. I've seen main fuses and meters in a single enclosure outside, or an enclosure for the main fuses and the meter next to the panel. (most common in older installations). So with the main fuses you can isolate everything, including the meter. Electricians even have the key to the PoCo cutouts in the street, so they can isolate the house feeder and the risers. Saw them do that when they installed a new feeder some time ago (the old one was rotting away, and it wasn't buried deep enough when we built the garage), huge cable, each of the conductors at least 1cm in diameter.

pauluk said earlier "I've never seen a service taken into a house then continued on to other premises. Very strange!"

hehe Well, work over this way, Paul (West Sussex, UK) in one particular area it is a very common site - loop in/out main - one cable (probably no more than 35mm with concentric neutral) running 6-8 houses each.

I remember once the council went to put electric cookers and electric showers in ..... :-) Needless to say, within a month they were gas cookers and tank-fed showers.

Well, that's my two-pence worth for now....

Steve



[This message has been edited by Steve|Uk (edited 07-21-2003).]

I'm not around long enough to know the full history of distribution here in Ireland but I've always noticed that on older houses there are always 3 porcelen insulators on the wall. The old cables are obviously long gone.

The supply along the street would be 380V 3P + N overhead along poles each house tapping into 1 of the phases + N with the odd house taking all 3 for a workshop/guest house/shop etc..

The connections either run underground to the houses or else a modern single phase cable is anchored to one of the old insulators.

Look like the old system was 3-phase?
or would the 3 insulators be explained by something else?

These houses would date from the 1920s/30s.

I'll take a pic of a few diazed installations here in Ireland when I get the chance too.

They date right up to the mid 80s! (Diazed with RCD..)

I definitely know of a few 1950s panels still very much in use that look very like those swedish ones.

The white unit physically resembles a typical older domestic single phase unit here. Although it would prob. have an RCD tagged alongside it if it was up to code.

These Diazed fuses are quite alien to anything used in residential services in Britain.

In the past, the rewireable fuse was the most usual form of OCPD, and everybody was familiar with having to keep a card of fuse wire handy to repair them. What I find incredible is that these primitive devices were installed for so long in this country. Here's a Wylex type:


So far as I'm aware, Wylex is the only company still manufacturing rewireable fuse carriers. Their standard range panels will also accept BS1361 cartridge fuse carriers and plug-in MCBs, at least making them easy to upgrade.

I'll pull some more rlevant pictures that I've posted previously and add to this thread later.

Which area of West Sussex is that Steve? Just curious -- I used to visit all around that area when I was a kid. Haven't been back there since about 1978, so I guess it's changed a little!

Dave,
On the three insulators on older Irish properties, could it be that they were supplied with 3-wire DC or even 3-wire single-phase AC originally?

I know from some of your earlier comments that 3-ph 220/380 distributrion was the norm by the time the rural electrification program was underway in Ireland, but maybe 3-wire DC/AC systems were once used in the older parts of the larger cities such as Dublin and Cork (i.e. those areas likely to have been wired for power in the early days).

It seems unlikely that it would have been anything other than 220V AC though.

ESB took over the system in the early 30s and very rapidly standardised on 220V 50Hz and 380 V 50hz.

I know that Cork used 110V DC breifly, supplied by the tram system, but these houses would be far too late for that.

3 wire AC would have been 2 X 127V + neutral?

The cabling along the streets seems very old, ornate metal poles carrying 4 cables individually across porceline insulators.

The houses would also all have the remenents of old schuko sockets in the skirtings/walls. Most of which were re-wired in the 1970s / 80s although some of which still use schuko outlets prob. dating back to the 1940s/50s if not a lot earlier.

Interestingly they also usually have 2 small insulators where the old phone lines would have been carried as individidual drop cables from the poles instead of a twisted pair back in the 1920s/30s.

I think electromechanical switching, strowger and rotary, was present in the city area here from the early 30s too. It would have been replaced by Ericsson XBar systems by the 50s though. Although given the age of these cables they could be telegraphy

I was thinking more along the lines of American-style 110/220V, but 127V is a possibility.

Perhaps these places had European-style 127/220V 3-ph distribution along the streets but each house took only two phases, i.e. House #1 on A & B, #2 on A & C, #3 on B & C etc.

WOuld it make sense that with Irish independence newly gained at that time that attention might turn toward European systems rather than relying on established British equipment?

Paul,

Electricity first appeared in Dublin and Cork around 1903 on a commercial scale generated by the respective City Corporations. I don't think it was necessarily built to UK "standards" (which were non-exsistant at the time). As far as I'm aware one of the cities used an edison DC system in the early days.

By 1925 Siemens (or Siemens-Schuckertwerke of Berlin) was heavily involved, the national grid began to be created along with the Shannon hydro electric scheme, actually listed as one of the world's engineering milestones / landmarks ..

So I'd say there was a fairly strong Siemens influence... although it could equally have been Edison / GE etc.. It was all down to cost and selection of a system as opposed to any political motivation.

Siemens offered a sollution at the right price. The UK system was also very poorly standardised with umpteen different voltages, distribution systems etc etc..

ESB was established in 1927 and remains in pretty much the same form in 2003.

http://www.siemens.ie/news/achievement.htm

Original 1925 logo :





Here's the national grid in 1930:



Very pretty for a power station: (Front view)


Full details of the entire project from the IEEE:
http://www.ieee.org/organizations/history_center/milestones_photos/shannon.html


Note the siemens nameplates in the turbine hall! (good ole 1927-30 technology still generating 86MW of eco friendly hydro power today!!!!)



[This message has been edited by djk (edited 07-22-2003).]

I'm not absolutely sure, but I think the standard configurations in the early days of electricity here in Austria were 220/440V 3w DC (Edison system) and 127/220V 3ph AC w/o neutral, maybe with the odd 110V DC system.
That means each larger house would have had +, - and neutral or 3 phases.
I've seen a 1903 advertisement for Municipial Electricity that offers DC in districts 1-9 and 11 to 20, 3ph AC (probably 127/220V) in districts 1, 2 and 10. What happened to districts 21-23 I don't know, maybe they didn't have power back then, though parts of the 21st district are listed for 3ph AC. The PoCo also offered brick lifts, site lighting and arc lights, as well as a large stock of "Nernst lights" specially designed for 220V, white light and huge power savings!
(Taken from an advertisement on the back of a tramway ticket)



and the front of the ticket for those who're interested:

Took a closer look at one of the old hook-ups. There's actually a 4th hook missing an insulator.

I've been told the 3 phases were prob. carried on heavier insulators than the neutral cable hence the 3 phase insulators survived intact. The neutral insulator's actually being used to attach the final clips for the modern cable.

It was 380V to bigger homes and terrices had a 3-phase hook up at the end of the block feeding each house 1 phase + tacked neutral along the facia.

Ah.... That explains it all. You'll sometimes see a similar situation here where the original service to a house was on two individual overhead lines to a bracket carrying two insulators, but a newer concentric-neutral cable has been installed in recent years leaving one insulator unused.

The Irish electrification project makes for interestingf reading nevertheless. As you say, Britain ended up with a real mixture of local generating systems and a whole mess of different nominal voltages of both AC and DC systems which took many decades to get straightened out and standardized.

It's all becoming much clearer now how Ireland ended up with many Continental-style features in its electrical systems.

Tex,
You mentioned the Vienna tram (streetcar) system. Was this run on a 500V DC system, as was common in the Anglo-Saxon world?

No, I think trams were operating on 650VDC right from the beginning of electrification in 1897. We have a real mixture of power systems in public transportation here, 650VDC catenary (Tram), 750VDC catenary (subway line U6, former Stadtbahn, though the cars can operate on tram lines as well), 750VDC 3rd rail (other subway lines), 950VDC catenary (suburban train to Baden near Vienna, dual system cars to operate on both 650 and 950V), 15kVAC catenary (suburban train system operated by OEBB (railway company)). 650VDC seems to be pretty common for trams in continental Europe, Munich just stepped up to 750V about a year ago.

I notice on that 1930 map of the grid there are some VERY European specs:

110kV Overhead Transmission lines
38kV " " "
10kV " " "
110kV / 38kV Sub-station
38kV/10kV Sub-station
10kV/0,38kV/0,22kV Sub-station

(strange way of writing 380V/220V !)

So by 1930 the modern system was pretty much in place. (the only changes were the addition of 220kV and 440kV transmission and more 38kV replacing 10kV)

In 2003 the Shannon Scheme representes less than 1% of supply!

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 07-26-2003).]

Unless I'm mis-reading the lines, it looks as though originally there was just one major 110kV route running Dublin-Limerick-Cork.

Looking at the map, I also can't help asking what happened to Donegal? It looks like they ran HV as far as Sligo and then just stopped!

Or was Co. Donegal already receiving power from across the border at this time?

Paul,

Donegal simply wasn't on the grid at all at that stage! There was certainly no cross-boarder link. The BBC even went as far as to make sure that broadcasts didn't "over spill" too far by installing sheilds on the transmitters! The towns would have had local power generation systems on a small scale but the entire county wasn't wired up until slightly later. Donegal's extremely rugged and has narrow mountain passes some parts of the north of the county didn't get fully electrified until the early 1960s!!! At the time that map was produced it would have also had a very small population (less than 50,000 people in the area that wasn't on that grid)

And yup, there was just one big 110KV line linking Dublin with Limerick (Shannon hydrostations) and Cork

Dublin and Cork had signifigant power generation capacity at that stage. The main purpose of that 110KV line was to feed power from Ardnacrusha (Shannon Hydrostation) to Dublin and Cork and pick up the smaller towns etc en route.

The consumption of power at that stage was really low in compairson to modern times, most people running a few lights and a wireless (if they were lucky!) The only places in the 1930s that were using electricity for industrial reasons were in Dublin and Cork cities.

The population was pretty insignifigant too:

Total: about 3 million

Dublin was VERY small in comparision to what it is today (like 300,000 people!)

Cork was on a pretty small scale too and limerick wouldn't have classified as much more than a large town by European standards (still prob. doesn't)


Here's a quote from the ESB archive: (1930-40s!)

"The 85 MW of generating plant in Ardnacrusha was adequate to meet the electricity demand of the entire country in the early years. Sometimes especially at night in winter, water had to be wasted because the total system demand was so small"

[This message has been edited by djk (edited 07-26-2003).]

Ah.. I thought it might just be that Donegal wasn't high on the list of priorities at that time!

For anyone who isn't quite sure which part of the map we're talking about, Donegal is right up in the far northwest, only connected to the rest of the Irish Republic by a panhandle:

The blue section is Northern Ireland, still part of the U.K.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 07-28-2003).]