ECN Forum
Posted By: Dnkldorf Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/17/06 01:50 PM
I know this is going to sound stupid, but...

Do electrons vibrate/oscillate with a voltage applied?

They can't flow without a path, but can they sit there and oscillate without a complete path?


Dnk..
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/17/06 04:06 PM
Dnk - I'm not sure I can see the image in your head, what you mean by oscilating? But as I understand it, electrons are really not sitting around at all. Electrons revolve about the necleus (center part) of an atom, and at a high velocity at that. You can think of it as if they "orbit" about the center nucleus. In most materials (kind of atoms), the nucleus has a firm hold on the electron which makes it very dificult and unlikely than an electron can escape and take off, either on it's own of under pressure (voltage). Some materials have a weak hold on their outermost orbiting electrons and it is fairly easy for one of them to escape.

Added to this is not only do electrons orbit the center nucleus of their atoms, they also spin or rotate. You have left spinning electrons and right spinning ones. This spin is what is said to be related to magnetism. You can see it gets complicated.

Back to your question, generally, electrons are trapped in their orbits. Sometimes, if an external outside force or pressure is applied, depending on a bunch of variables, it might be strong enough to overcome the hold of the atoms nucleus and the electron can escape and move with the direction of the pressure applied.

This is kind of a simplistic reply to a very complex issue.

Radar
Posted By: Dave T Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/17/06 05:29 PM
If I'm to guess that you may referring to electron flowing from negative to positive as would be in a DC power source then the answer would be No.
With AC the negative and positive change positions with the frequency. Then, is oscillation means changing direction then the answer is yes. But remember that electrons travel at the speed if light, 186,000mp sec. So, then the question is does a single electron in a conductor actually oscillate or it it so fast that it travels the complete length of the conductor and never has a chance to reverse directions.
The thought is further complicated by adding transformers and magnetic coupling etc. from the point where the power is being generated to the actual load.
But, it may be nice to know out of curiosity but is it necessary to know?
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/17/06 06:36 PM
Might we say that once an electron leaves the orbit of an atom, since it is negative, it will be attracted towards anything more positive and repelled away from other negatives. If the positive charge towards which it is moving changes locations, the direction of the electron travel will change accordingly. In the presence of an AC voltage, in which the locations of positive and negative charges swap places repeatedly, the electron will be forced to change directions (towards the positive) at twice the AC frequency.

Dave - I might certainly be wrong, but I don't believe electrons travel at the speed of light. I've heard this before, but since sub atomic particles are considered to be mostly particles (as opposed to waves), it is essentially impossible.

From what I've read, particle accelerators manage to accelerate particles up to some high fraction of the speed of light in order to generate extreemly high energy collisions. In ordinary matter, such collisions occur all the time, and at much lower energy levels.

Radar
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/17/06 07:01 PM
Keep going if you can, this is getting interesting.....


Dnk...
Posted By: WFO Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/18/06 01:39 AM
Quote:
"So, then the question is does a single electron in a conductor actually oscillate or it it so fast that it travels the complete length of the conductor and never has a chance to reverse directions."

My understanding, limited as it may be, is that electron flow is more like a domino effect than a flow.
An example would be a group of cue balls in a perfectly straight line. Hit the first ball, and the energy is instantly transmitted through each ball in the line to the very end without any one ball moving significantly.

Quote:
"Dave - I might certainly be wrong, but I don't believe electrons travel at the speed of light. "

The speed of light varies depending on the medium it travels in. The 186,000 miles per second it attains in a vacuum is slowed considerably in say, glass or water.

So the question is, how fast is light in an opaque medium like copper? Zero?

Logic tells us that current flows, so by the process of elimination, it should be somewhere between zero and 186,000 miles per second.

Hope this helps [Linked Image]!

[This message has been edited by WFO (edited 01-17-2006).]
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/18/06 04:52 AM
True enough that the speed of light differs according to the medium it is in, somewhat slower in air than in a vacuum, somewhat slower yet in water, etc. But in a medium like copper, I don't think the question is how fast so much as it is how far, i.e. how far does light penetrate into such a substance. Not very far, I'm sure.

The billiard balls is a good analogy - fill a 2" conduit with billiard balls 'till it's full. Then push another one in at one end, and one will be pushed out the other end at the same time, making it seem like extremely high speed (which it's not).

I'll get in a longer post tomorrow.
Radar
Posted By: Scott35 Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/18/06 05:55 AM
Quote

Do electrons vibrate/oscillate with a voltage applied?

I imagine they would shimmy quite a lot, when they are under pressure - especially since they would be bursting towards the outermost areas of a Conductor - vs - slipping in and out of various "Bands" and doing other neat Subatomic stuff
[Linked Image]

Quote

They can't flow without a path, but can they sit there and oscillate without a complete path?

Even if there isn't a "Physical" closed Circuit, if Conductors are connected to a Power Source
(something with an ample supply of free Electrons + holes for them to fall into - thus having a Potential Difference between the ends of the source),
there will still be currents flowing in the conductors.

This is known as "Line / Circuit Charging", and must take place on any AC or DC Power System.
The charging is Capacitive, in Parallel to the conductors connected to the power supply, and in series through the same conductors (via many methods - including skin effect).

The charge levels will constantly be changing, due to System Voltage, changes of the Proximity State (like if someone walks by the conductors, or something moves), and the normal leakage between the "Capacitive Plates" so to say (like how a typical Capacitor will leak a stored charge).

I would imagine all this shuffling around of charge states, would certainly gyrate Electrons (and holes), much like Elvis gyrated on stage!

Viewing a "Stable" Atomic model - something with a few layers, such as an Iron Atom, the Electrons orbiting the Kernel will be "Orbiting" the Kernel (AKA "Nucleus"), much like Planets orbit the Sun - or Satellites orbit the Planets.
As they orbit the Kernel, they are also rotating - just like Planets and Satellites rotate.
Since they are rotating and falling around the Kernel - along with how they are influenced by other Atoms / Molecules / Forces, and they may move into a lower power level valence, but are at the same time bound to orbit / fall around the Kernel at a certain power level - AND, there is a "Magnetic-ish" interaction placed on them, they most certainly Oscillate in their orbit.

They vibrate in fixed orbits, which at times become altered or erratic due to influences.

If it were possible to do so, looking at an Atom would appear more or less like a circular cloud mass, which has an ever changing "Ant Races" like effect ("Ant Races" refers to what is seen on a TV screen when a "Dead" or unused channel is selected - the static black and white dots you see).

The Kernel would be shrouded by the valences of Electrons.

This is - of course, all theory. If anyone has actually seen an Atom, please take pictures of it, post it on-line here at ECN, then describe what is seen.
... [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

It's been nice to go into the "Theory-Theory" stuff again! Been awhile for me!

Scott35
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/18/06 12:18 PM
What I'm getting so far, is that with a pressure(voltage) applied, electrons would wobble, oscillate, gererally move around inside the conductor, without a complete path to generally flow.


Does this sound accurate?


Dnk...
Posted By: Dave T Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/18/06 03:42 PM
James Maxwell, Andre-Marie Ampere,Hans Christian Oersted,Charles-Augustin de Coulomb, Isaac Newton's Ampere, were once involved in this stuff in one way or another. It appears as though there may be someone in this series of posts that will be adding their name to this list.
But anyhoe, the Apmere has been defined as
A unit of electric current in the meter-kilogram-second system. It is the steady current that when flowing in straight parallel wires of infinite length and negligible cross section, separated by a distance of one meter in free space, produces a force between the wires of 2 × 10-7 newtons per meter of length.
A unit in the International System specified as one International coulomb per second and equal to 0.999835 ampere.

The question is if coulomb is the number of electrons or is the number of charges. If is is the num,ber of charges then one charge is bumped to the next atom and that atom bumps the charge to the next but the electrons themselves really don't trave so to speak.
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/18/06 03:56 PM
Dnk - In most materials, the orbiting electrons are tightly bound to their central nucleus, and it is only with great dificulty (i.e. exceedingly high pressure) is it possible to occasionally pry one away from it's atom. Naturally these materials are poor conductors.

In a few materials (i.e. good conductors) the electrons in the outermost orbit are loosely bound. So much so that they occasionally wander off by themselves, even with no external pressure applied. Thus, we have materials that have some quantity of "free electrons". These electrons can leave their orbits, wander around a bit, end up falling into another atom's orbit, any number of things. They are also readily available for current flow, should the opportunity arise.

Lastly, there are some materials in which the outermost electrons are bound neither too tightly nor too loosely. These materials do not have a lot of free electrons, but if sufficient pressureis applied (and a flow path provided), electrons will be moved from their orbits and form a flow of current. This stuff we refer to as semi-conductor material (not semi-conductor devices).

By the way, the spot in the outer orbit of an atom that is vacated by a renegade electron is called a "hole". Holes have positive charges, since the negative electron is gone, and can be observed as traveling in a direction counter to the direction of electron current flow. The holes don't actually move, or flow, but as electrons move from one orbit to another, then on to another, the holes give the appearance of moving the opposite way. This is important for reasons that I'll pretty much ignore for the moment.

Interestingly, it is possible to chemically alter semi-conductor materials (with neither too strong nor too weak electron binding), and sort of inject the material with an excess of electrons or and excess of holes (electron deficiency). By combining these altered materials in different ways, semi-conductor devices are produced.

Scott mentioned something about anyone seeing an atom to please report - they haven't and they won't. Even relatively big atoms are far far smaller than the wavelength of anything we could use to observe them directly. So we live with having to try to detect the predicted effects, and trying to minimixe the effect of our observation on the results of that observation. Very dificult.

To put this in some small degree of perspective, you'll remember from basic E&E that 1 amp of current is equal to i coulomb of charge per second. So what is that? 1 coulomb = 6.28 x 10 ^18 (10 to the 18th power). That is 6,280,000,000,000,000,000 or 6.28 billion-billion electrons past a given point in 1 second. 2 amps is twice that many, and so on.

Kind of makes you wonder, who counted them? And who came up with the right spin and left spin of electrons (more on that later).

Radar
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/18/06 04:19 PM
A quick word or two about electron “bumping”. We know a couple of things about electrons, that 1) they have relatively strong negative charges, and 2) that negative charges repel one another. So if you tried to shove electrons into a pipe like our billiard ball analogy, the negative charge would make each one appear much larger than it really is, and there would be lots of space between them. The overall effect would still work, each electron pushing the one in front with it’s repelling force, but no actual bumping.

Something that amazes me – if a modest sized atom were expanded in our imaginations to the point that the nucleus were the size of a bowling ball, the nearest electron in the very closest orbit would be represented by a B-B that is a mile or 2 away. Outer orbits are further away yet. And in real life materials, even though atoms are linked chemically, the negative charges of the orbiting electrons maintains lots of space between atoms. So what we see as solid objects actually consists of vast amounts of empty (micro) space.

Radar
Posted By: WFO Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/19/06 02:56 AM
Quote:
"Logic tells us that current flows, so by the process of elimination, it should be somewhere between zero and 186,000 miles per second."

This basically allows me to state an obviously worthless opinion without fear of being wrong. ( I love quoting myself [Linked Image])

Quote:
"What I'm getting so far, is that with a pressure (voltage) applied, electrons would wobble, oscillate, gererally move around inside the conductor, without a complete path to generally flow."

Basically, yes. When a froce is applied to a conductor, there doesn't have to be a complete path for current flow.

The prime example of this is the charging of a capacitor. When voltage is applied (let's assume a DC source for this), the electons are forced to one end of the circuit while the "holes" (as Radar pointed out) go to the other.

( At this point it is important to remember that "hole" does not refer to your supervisor).

During the time that it takes the charges to go to their respective end points, there is "current flow". Once the charges at the end of the circuit equal the charge that created it (a battery for instance), the current flow ceases.
Posted By: Boomerang Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/19/06 03:05 PM
If you could drive your car at the speed of light, would anything happen when you turned the headlights on?
Posted By: JoeTestingEngr Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/19/06 04:27 PM
Boomerang: If you could drive your car at the speed of light, would anything happen when you turned the headlights on?

It doesn't matter because you're driving too fast to avoid the deer even if you did see it.
Joe
Posted By: XtheEdgeX Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/19/06 04:32 PM
A copper atom has 29 protons at it's center, and 29 electrons orbiting it at different layers. The layers are kind of like the planets orbiting the sun. The different layers have different numbers of electrons, but the outer layer only has one electron. And since it's the most outer layer, that electron has the weakest hold on it by the ptotons. With no voltage applied to the conductor, and when these outer electrons are influenced by another attraction, it will drift away from it's atom and become a free electron. It will then drift around until it attaches to another atom's vacant outer layer. When AC voltage is applied to the copper wire, the electrons move in a specific pattern. On the high side of the sine wave, the electrons will move forward to the next atom, and on the low side of the sine wave, the electrons will move backwards to the next atom. This is current, and this forward and backward motion is what I've always heard called oscillating, or vibrating. Also, the electrons do not move through the conductor like the pool ball description. The elctrons acually only move back and forth in a distance shorter than a ten-thousandth of a millimeter. It is the electrical energy that moves forward through the wire at the speed of light.
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/19/06 08:01 PM
What makes a big difference here regarding oscillation is whether we're talking AC or DC. In 60 cycle AC, as Edge touched on above, electrons move in a particular direction (towards the positive) for only 1/120th of a second, then they reverse direction (because the positive has moved) for another 1/120th of a second. How far they move in that time? Who knows? Probably not very far. I don't know that I'd call this motion vibration exactly, it's just changing direction 120 times a second - but call it what we will.

In DC it's a little different. The direction of the positive does not change, so electrons all travel the same direction as long as the pressure is applied. Some will sort of leap-frog from one orbit to another, some (free electrons) may simply bumble along as part of the general flow.

The lone electron in the outermost shell of a copper (or gold or silver) atom is interesting in that although it balances the atom electrically (equal number of protons and electrons), atoms in general do not like having 1 electron in the outermost orbit. The result is a quantity of free electrons in copper, unbound electrons that have simply drifted away from their orbits. Of course they might fall into another orbit, but at any given time there are lots of free electrons. That's what makes copper a good conductor.

Radar
Posted By: Dave T Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/19/06 11:36 PM
Maybe we should just cut to the chase and forget about this theory stuff. Let's make it simple and just mark one electron with an indelible magic marker that won't rub off and either watch it or put it in one end of a wire and see if it comes out the other end. If you measure the wire and have a stop watch you can figure out how fast it goes.
Just a little humor to lighten thing up a bit.
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/20/06 01:02 AM
I'm thinkin' I'm gonna be needing a new Sharpie.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/20/06 08:53 AM
I'm still grappling with WFO's 'holes' moving to the other end of a conductor! [Linked Image]

Alan
Posted By: WFO Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/20/06 12:18 PM
Quote:
"I'm still grappling with WFO's 'holes' moving to the other end of a conductor! "

Personally, I always thought there were a lot of holes in that theory myself.......... [Linked Image]
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/20/06 02:55 PM
Here's a crude analogy of hole flow. Think of a variation of "musical chairs" in which there is one too many chairs. A bunch of players and a bunch + 1 of chairs, players sitting in all but one chair. Frequently someone gets up and moves to another chair, then someone else does the same, and so on. There's always a minimum of one empty chair. The empty chair does not move, but from a distance the empty spot appears to move in opposition to the actual movement of the players.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/21/06 12:58 PM
Or, how about a bunch of 3ft diameter holes drilled in the surface of a frozen lake, with a tennis-ball floating in the hole, representing the nucleus. Next to each hole we place an "electron"; let's use a frozen pea. Now introduce a bunch of skaters. When one of them stops for a pea, the guy behind kicks him in the ice-hole.

Alan
Posted By: WFO Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/21/06 02:10 PM
....getting back on topic..... [Linked Image]

Hole flow is actually just an extension of one of Newton's basics of physical law.

For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

If the electron (negative charge) goes in one direction, the neucleus (which is now positively charged) goes the other.

Think of a capacitor charging. As all the negative charges stack up on one plate, the other plate is stacking up with positive charges.
The thing that bothers me about this "physically" is that (in my mind) the neucleus obviously cannot be moving to that plate or the capacitor would become a black hole of mass on one end and almost mass-less (if that's a word) on the other.

As to how much of a "I need to know this" piece of info this is, I think it is much more useful in understanding certain aspects of semi-conductor properties than electro-mechanical work.

Any thoughts on this that don't involve peas and ice? [Linked Image]
Posted By: JoeTestingEngr Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/21/06 03:58 PM
I think holes are great because they give cover to the great old dead guys who:
1.) Got current flow wrong, always making us consider electron flow Vs conventional current flow.
2.) Drew our diodes backwards.
&
3.) Tried to help those of us not quite dead yet, to understand PNP transistors.

I'm still wondering if all those angels on the head of a pin are spinning or motionless, carry a charge or try to remain neutral.
Joe
Posted By: John Crighton Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/25/06 01:57 AM
Radar:
Quote
electrons move in a particular direction (towards the positive) for only 1/120th of a second, then they reverse direction (because the positive has moved) for another 1/120th of a second. How far they move in that time? Who knows? Probably not very far.

Not very far, indeed! I was astonished to find out just how slowly electrons travel in copper wire. It's:

(4.62 millimeters/second) per (volt per meter).

So, what the heck does that mean?

It means that if you take a piece of wire one meter long and connect a one-volt battery across the ends, the electrons travel at the rate of 4.62 millimeters (less than 3/16") per second!

If that doesn't sound like a lot of work getting done, consider that if our one-meter wire is awg-24 (0.5 mm), the current is over 12 amps!

The diameter of the wire doesn't matter. As the wire gets larger, the current goes up proportionally, but the velocity stays the same.

If, instead of a one-volt battery, we apply one volt RMS, 60 Hz AC, that Sharpie-marked electron travels only 1.4 thousandths of an inch in each direction.

Sort of...

Actually, a more correct term for electron travel is "drift," rather than velocity. Electrons are constantly zipping around at 1.3 million meters per second, the Fermi velocity, even at absolute zero. They're just moving in random directions, so there's no net current without an electromotive force applied.

Is that cool, or what?
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/25/06 12:22 PM
This is a cool thread, it gets you thinking....


Dnk..
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/25/06 09:16 PM
I have to admit that my knowledge of physics falls somewhere short of the term "Fermi Velocity". If I'm converting this correctly, this comes out to just a few hundred yards short of about 808 miles per second, a right snappy speed at that.

How do we balance that against the relatively slow rate of travel of current flow in an electrical circuit, measured at 4.62 millimeters / second / volt / meter?

One possible answer is a vast quantity of electrons drifting randomly, and within that a relatively few non-random moving electrons participating in current flow, leaving the overall appearance of relatively slow travel of current flow.

Another possibility, perhaps somewhat more likely, is again a vast quantity of randomly & rapidly drifting electrons, the whole sea of which is drifting slowly towards the positive pole of an outside force (and of course being replenished by the negative terminal).

Attempting some additional reasoning based on what John said earlier, in the one meter long sample piece of copper wire, we can reduce resistance by increasing bandwidth (larger diameter), and we get more electrons to flow (more pathways) but at the same constant speed. On the other hand, if we leave resistance alone at the original valus but increase the voltage applied instead, we end up with the same number of electrons moving but at a faster speed, twice as fast actually, effectively yielding more electrons per second flowing past a given point.

Kinda like on a freeway, more lanes at the same speed gives more cars per hour, same lanes but faster speeds also gives more cars per hour. Bandwidth verses speed.

Sure would be interesting if we could actually see this stuff working, heh?

Radar
Posted By: Dave T Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/25/06 10:20 PM
I thinks it's time for a cold beer.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/25/06 10:27 PM
A beer?

How bout a 6?


Dnk....
Posted By: WFO Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 01:53 AM
Quote:
"Actually, a more correct term for electron travel is "drift," rather than velocity. Electrons are constantly zipping around at 1.3 million meters per second, the Fermi velocity, even at absolute zero."

What, exactly, is the Fermi velocity? A Viagra statistic, perhaps? [Linked Image]

And I thought the definition of absolute zero was NO electron movement.
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 02:07 AM
WFO - small point, but the definition of absolute zero is no molecular vibration (at the atom or molecule level), which we measure as heat.
Posted By: DC10 Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 02:30 AM
Dave T, a Coulomb is a specific number of electrons. An Ampere is one Coulomb of electrons passing a given point in one second.
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 03:23 PM
That would be approximately 6,280,000,000,000,000,000 (give or take a few hundred million billion), but who's counting?
Posted By: Dave T Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 05:18 PM
Yes DC10 a coulomb represents a charge of approximately 6.241 506 x (10 to the 18th power) e or or 6.24 quintillion.

Ok guys, I found this with regard to oscillation:

"Theory of Coulomb-blockade oscillations in the conductance of a quantum dot
C. W. J. Beenakker

Philips Research Laboratories, 5600 JA Eindhoven, The Netherlands

Received 28 November 1990
A linear-response theory is developed for resonant tunneling through a quantum dot of small capacitance, in the regime of thermally broadened resonances. The theory extends the classical theory of Coulomb-blockade oscillations by Kulik and Shekhter to the resonant-tunneling regime. Both the cases of negligible and strong inelastic scattering in the quantum dot are considered. Effects from the non-Fermi-Dirac distribution of electrons among the energy levels (occurring when kT is comparable to the level separation) are fully included. Explicit analytic results are obtained for the periodicity, amplitude, line shape, and activation energy of the conductance oscillations.

©1991 The American Physical Society"

There, take that!!

But, is this stuff inportant for us to know? Is it simply to exercise or brains? Then a guy with two middle names, C. W. J. Beenakker.
Are we havin' fun yet?
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 05:41 PM
Well I had no idea this information was out there pertaining to this subject.

My original thought and the reason for the question was, If I had a piece of wire just sitting there on a bench we'll say, are the electrons moving around inside the wire?

Now then, if I apply a voltage to that wire, would the electrons dance around, oscillate, vibrate, or what have you? Mind you, we have no complete circuit for the electrons to flow.

And if they did oscillate, this would require energy to do this. Energy in some form would have to be used up in order for the electrons to move. Is this correct?


Dnk....


[This message has been edited by Dnkldorf (edited 01-26-2006).]
Posted By: John Crighton Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 06:33 PM
To answer Dave T first: Nope, none of us needs to know this stuff, and yes, it's just a brain exercise. I'm not a physicist by a long shot, and I'd never heard of Fermi velocity before I started researching this. It just happened that I came across this thread at the same time I was reading about electron movement in radio antennas.

But, I've worked in electronics all my life and never given the slightest thought to the question of how fast electrons travel. Like you, I just assumed they zipped along at the speed of light. It was one of those light-bulb-going-on-over-the-head experiences to find out just how pokey they really are!

To further Radar's discussion a little, the reason why electrons are so slow in copper is that they keep colliding with copper atoms -- at the rate of some 1.9 x 10^44 collisions per second (coincidentally, the same rate as cars on Interstate 5 in Central California in heavy fog).

If they didn't collide so much, they'd be able to accelerate to much higher rates. That's apparently what makes superconductors work: with more organized atomic structures, the electrons move faster, and the resulting current is higher.

To address Dnk's question:

Quote
And if they did oscillate, this would require energy to do this. Energy in some form would have to be used up in order for the electrons to move. Is this correct?

Nope. The Earth orbits the sun at over 60,000 miles per hour and uses no energy doing it. In the same way, electrons somehow just keep orbiting those nucleii (not in elliptical orbits, but in kind of fuzzy, probabilistic shells).

That's about as far as my knowledge extends on this topic. I'll keep reading...
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 07:32 PM
To continue John's last - though the earth 'uses' no energy in circling the sun at 60K or so, it 'has' energy in doing so, and it 'received' that energy at some point in the past. Exactly when and how it received the energy is a topic of phylosophical debate (best avoided here).

Thinking about superconductors for a moment, WFO also mentioned the concept of absolute zero. What we measure as heat energy is nothing more than greater of lesser degrees of atomic and/or molecular vibration (or oscillation). If we apply more heat, the molecules vibrate more violently. Consequently, by their vibrating, they occupy more space, or appear larger than they really are. This vibration has the effect of reducing the available space between atoms or molecules, and the more heat applied, the less effective space there is available, and collisions (physical resistance) are greater in number.

Absolute zero is the point at which the molecular movement or vibration stops. The atoms and molecules occupy a space commensurate with their real (rest) size, maximizing the available space between atoms. Electrons are free to move about with absolute minimal interference. I can't recall an exact value for absolute value, I think it's a few hundred degrees below zero (-350 or so?). Could be way wrong on that.

Radar
Posted By: Dave T Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 08:58 PM
If this string keeps going in the direction that it is it could be a candidate for a Nobel Prize for figuring something out. What that is has yet to be determined.
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 10:03 PM
So we're saying we have answers, but we're not sure what the questions are - LOL. Too true.
Dnk - did you ever think this would go this far?

One thing I forgot to mention earlier regarding what John said....

--------------------------------------------
The Earth orbits the sun at over 60,000 miles per hour and uses no energy doing it. In the same way, electrons somehow just keep orbiting those nucleii (not in elliptical orbits, but in kind of fuzzy, probabilistic shells).
--------------------------------------------

The earth is held in orbit by the sun's gravitational attraction. Electrons, being negatively charged particles, are held in orbit by electrical attraction to the atom's nucleus, which is positive. The nucleus in the center is just a collection of neutrons (nutral charge) and protons (positive charges). Since opposing charges attract (and like charges repel), the negative electrons are held in place by the large positive nucleus. More on this attracting and repelling forces stuff later if anyone is interested.

It's a little more complex than that, and atoms really don't like having just one electron in the outer shell, even if it balances electrically. So that outer electron can easily be moved by force, or even become a free electron.

Radar
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/26/06 10:22 PM
If memmory serves me correctly,(I have many dead brain cells), the earth does use energy to orbit. It uses the radiation and magnetic energy from the sun. When the sun burns out in about a gazillion years, the earth and the solar system we currently live in will just float away into a big black hole where the ewoks live.......

Nope, never guessed a stupid question about a piece of wire would go this far.......

Time to put the beer away and grab the Jack.......

Dnk.....
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/27/06 12:45 PM
In 4000 million years [approx] the Sun will expand into a red star. All the inner planets, [Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars], will be engulfed into its bigger diameter. We are about half way through the Sun's life-cycle, so no worries yet.

Anyway, back to the subject. I think that the analagy of the 'orbiting' electron round a nucleus being similar to Earth orbiting the Sun a bit strained. In conductors, the outer shell electrons, the so-called 'cloud' must be pretty loosely 'connected' to the molecules. It's more likely that they do a partial orbit and then traverse to another molecule, do a partial orbit, and so on. The fact someone mentioned that solids are all 'holes' means they could travel quite a ways before their next 'encounter'. Not in straight lines of course, since they are repelled by the other electons in the vicinity. Should this not mean that 'electrical resistance' should not be [i]quite[i/] a straight line on a graph, when plotted against voltage?
And of couse not only conductors have 'loose' electrons- you can mechanically rub some off a piece of amber, [or some plastics], which are non-conductive. If an amber molecule has 'free' electrons on its outer shell, why doesn't it conduct electicity well?

So many questions, so little time, Lord.

Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 01-27-2006).]
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/27/06 03:55 PM
The analogy that electrons orbiting a nucleus resembles planets orbiting a star is surly flawed but serves to conjure up a general picture. The most obvious problem is that while each star orbit generally contains but one planet, each orbital shell about a nucleus contains multiple electrons. The first orbit has a max of 2, the second has a max of 8, the third - 18, and so on in a complex but prescribed pattern. Most of the time, the number of (negative) electrons orbiting a nucleus equals the number of (positive) protons in the nucleus, thereby balancing the atom electrically.

Something Alan hit on is the idea of electron sharing, a whole field of study in itself. If we look at an atom of oxygen, we’ll find 8 protons in the nucleus, and normally 8 electrons. So, that would be 2 electrons in the inner shell, and 6 in the outer. For whatever reason, atoms really really prefer exactly 8 electrons in the outer shell, so having only 6 leaves the atom wanting more even though it is electrically balanced. (Side note: Try tearing an electron away from an oxygen atom sometime, very extremely difficult). This gives cause to 2 common solutions:

Many times, if there is any hydrogen nearby, 2 hydrogen atoms, with one proton and one electron each, will hook-up and share their electrons with the oxygen atom. This is a suitable compromise. By sharing 2 electrons with the 2 hydrogen atoms, the oxygen atom has it’s 8 electrons in the outer shell (if only shared or part time), and the entire unit of 3 atoms is electrically neutral (3 atoms, 10 total protons, 10 total electrons). This chemical bonding, or sharing of electrons, of 1 oxygen atom and 2 hydrogen is what makes one molecule of water (H2O).

Other times 2 oxygen atoms will hook-up chemically to form one molecule of oxygen gas (O2). Think of this – 2 oxygen atoms, each of which would like 2 more electrons in their outer shells, will bond chemically, meaning they will each share 2 of their outer electrons with the other atom, allowing both the illusion of having 8 in the outer shell (10 total), and still maintain an overall electrical balance (2 atoms, 16 total protons, 16 total electrons).

So you see, pretty much the whole of chemistry is based on electrons, and the sharing thereof.

Many other possibilities are possible with oxygen alone: O3, OH-, H3O+, and many more. One last point here. Because it has such a hunger for 2 electrons to complete the outer shell, oxygen is a very reactive substance. There are a few other types of atoms that naturally have 8 electrons in the outer shell and are electrically balanced. These are chemically inert, meaning they simply do not react chemically with other substances (because there is no need, no excess or deficiency of electrons). You could say they don’t share well at all.

Sorry if this got too long.
Radar


[This message has been edited by Radar (edited 01-27-2006).]
Posted By: John Crighton Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/27/06 06:02 PM
Well, I didn't mean to imply that Earth orbits and electron shells use the same forces. My analogy was only in response to the question of whether orbiting electrons "use up" energy. They don't, in the same way that orbiting bodies don't.

I woke up the other day with all the Grand Unified Field Theory equations clearly in mind. Now if I could just find that scrap of paper I wrote them down on... All I remember is that the total number of dimensions in the universe is forty-two [Linked Image]
Posted By: WFO Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/28/06 12:41 AM
Quote:
"Many times, if there is any hydrogen nearby, 2 hydrogen atoms, with one proton and one electron each, will hook-up and share their electrons with the oxygen atom. This is a suitable compromise. By sharing 2 electrons with the 2 hydrogen atoms, the oxygen atom has it’s 8 electrons in the outer shell (if only shared or part time), and the entire unit of 3 atoms is electrically neutral (3 atoms, 10 total protons, 10 total electrons). This chemical bonding, or sharing of electrons, of 1 oxygen atom and 2 hydrogen is what makes one molecule of water (H2O)."

I knew I was right! I always said that water flow was an excellent analogy for electricity and now someone has proved it. [Linked Image]



[This message has been edited by WFO (edited 01-27-2006).]
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/28/06 05:03 AM
A little more on atomic or molecular vibration.

Heat is measured in 'degrees', but heat energy is measured in 'calories'. As heat energy is applied, the temperature rises because the molecules vibrate ever more violently.

Take an 8 ounce glass filled with scotch and water on the rocks. It takes approximately 15,000 calories of heat energy to increase the terperature of the liquid / ice mixture from 32ºF to 98.6ºF, which is body temperature. This is the energy your body would expend in warming the cold liquid to body temp when you drink it. Since the mixture itself contains only a few hundred calories (because of the alcohol, I think), in theory, one should be able to loose weight like crazy by drinking scotch & water on the rocks.

Why doesn't this work in real life? This is a trick question, but maybe there's room for further experimenting. Any guesses?

Radar


[This message has been edited by Radar (edited 01-28-2006).]
Posted By: XtheEdgeX Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/28/06 05:01 PM
Electrical energy and electricity are two different things. In a DC circuit, electricity (the forward movement of electrons) moves slowly in a complete circle. The electrical energy wave, moves very fast through the circuit from the source to the load, but does not return to the source. In a flashlight, for example, the electricity moves very slowly in a loop through the bulb and back out. The electrical energy goes to the filament very quickly and is used up to produce heat and light.
In an AC circuit, the electricity, or electron movement, is in a back and forth motion, which is why it's called alternating current. The electrical energy wave moves very fast across the circuit at the speed of light. And the same is said with AC, when the electrical energy wave is sent to a bulb filament, the electrical energy is used, or destroyed, to produce light.
There are also some misconceptions about electrons.
In response to Alan's last post, electrons do orbit the nucleus similar to planets orbiting the sun. They just don't take the same path over and again. The path changes with each revolution. The only difference is the outer electron in a conductive element's atoms. I'm referring the way they move from atom to atom.
In response to Radar's, you're getting into something completely different here. Atoms do not prefer exactly 8 electrons in it's outer shell. All electrons and protons are identical from atom to atom. The different numbers of protons and electrons in an atom is what creates different elements. You change this number, and you have a different element. When atoms combine chemically, they create molecules. Not all atoms will accept this chemical combination. When you combine molecules to form a substance that occupies space and has weight, you have created matter.
I would also like to say that anything that has motion, uses some form of energy to produce that motion. The earth rotating the sun does use energy. When you move your finger to click your mouse button, energy is used.

Edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by XtheEdgeX (edited 01-28-2006).]
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/28/06 08:32 PM
Newtons first Law; Objects will remain at rest or in uniform motion [that is neither accelerated nor braked], unless acted upon by an external force.

Newtons 3rd Law. A force always has an equal and opposite reacting force. A system cannot be affected by forces and reactions within itself. Moving your finger on the mouse or expoding a 50,000lb bomb have exactly the same effect on Earth's motion in the Universe, ie absolutely none. An analogy, [we're good at those here!] would be the good old tried-and tested "lift yourself off the ground by your bootstraps". It don't woik!! Earth has been in near enough the same orbit for around 4,000,000,000 years, and to change its orbit relative to the Sun requires, effectively, the gain or loss of mass to provide the necessary force. A meteorite will do it, as will lauching a Shuttle, but as F = ma,[ force = mass x acceleration, Newtons 2nd Law], the effects are very, very small indeed given the Earth's enormous mass.

PS ADDED.
The Earths spin, (as opposed to its orbit) can be changed by actions on the surface, ie. by a car accelerating east to west. The effect is nullified when the car is braked to rest again. The Moon has the greatest slowing effect, due to tides, and the days are getting longer. Very slow change to be sure, but its estimated that when Tyrannosaurus Rex roamed our flourishing green planet, a day was about 20 hours, ie a loss of 4 hours in 70 million years. Boy, it musta been a-spinnin' at first!

Radar, you are on to something here! The "Scotch on the rocks diet!" Eureka! May I suggest a good Malt, as opposed to grain whisky, or a good Bourbon. My favorites are Jack Daniels, The Macallan, 12yrs, or The Balvenie Single Barrel, 15 years, or there's Glenmorangie, Glenfiddich etc. etc. Nectar of the Gods, and we haven't mentioned Irish Whiskey yet!
'Course we'd need to do proper scientific tests, ( notice suddenly it's "we"!! ), it could take years to try all the brands to see if there's any difference, given the limits of sensible drinking, but someone's got to do it! A Government Grant perhaps?- they've been given for far more mundane projects than this by far, and we urgently need get the citizens less obese, don't we?

Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan Belson (edited 01-28-2006).]
Posted By: WFO Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/29/06 01:20 AM
Many of the great unwashed at this point would be thinking that we've (yes, it's become we again) strayed off topic. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Do you really think that terms like "lit", "juiced", (and in my case "dimmed") are just randomly applied to both applications?

I think not [Linked Image]
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/29/06 01:46 AM
I just to thank you guys for killing more of brain cells.

Murderers...


Dnk...
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/29/06 09:19 AM
Charged. [UIA]
Discharged. ["You can go home now, son."]
Positive. [Breathaliser test.]
Capacity. [2 shots?]
Resistance. [I gotta go!]
Ohms Law. ["What time d'ya call this!?"]


Brain cells!? We don't need no stinkin' ....

What was the topic anyway?

Alan
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/29/06 08:25 PM
Bad news dudes & dudettes – although you never know if continued experimentation might be enough to change the facts in our favor, but here’s the deal. It turns out that there is a small difference between a food calorie and a heat calorie. You see, 1 food calorie equals 1,000 heat calories. The scotch and water that contains a few hundred food calories actually contains a few hundred thousand heat calories. So the action of raising the temperature of the liquid from 32º to 98.6º hardly puts a dent in the sugar load, and in addition to the murderation of more brain cells, we’re packing on poundage by the ounce.

On to a couple of small points.

Quote
The different numbers of protons and electrons in an atom is what creates different elements

I believe it is the number of protons in a nucleus of an atom that determines the kind of atom, or element. The difference between gold and mercury is 1 proton, between gold and lead is 3 protons. For any given element, the number of neutrons in the nucleus varies (isotopes), and the number of orbiting electrons is (sometimes) changeable, but the number of protons is firmly fixed (barring a nuclear reaction) and determines the element.

Edge – I’m going to respectfully differ with you and stand by my statement that atoms would generally prefer, or feel more complete, with 8 electrons in the outer shell. This is an entirely separate thing apart from electrical charge balancing where electrons = protons. If there are only 7 or 6, as in the case of oxygen, the substance is highly reactive, attracting other atoms into an electron sharing arrangement. If there is, say, only 1, as in copper, silver & gold, that 1 can drift away with the greatest of ease, even though it leaves the atom electrically unbalanced. This sense of completeness with 8 electrons in the outer shell is stronger than the electrical forces. If a substance does happen to have 8 electrons in the outer shell, it is chemically unreactive (inert).

Quote
when the electrical energy wave is sent to a bulb filament, the electrical energy is used, or destroyed, to produce light

I believe a more applicable term is ‘converted’. Energy is not used, destroyed, and no new energy is ever created – it is simply converted from one form to another. Like electric energy to mechanical energy (motor) or light & heat energies (incandescent light).

I believe it is time for some more experimenting . . . . .
Radar
Posted By: XtheEdgeX Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/30/06 05:47 PM
Oops! I went from memory, and should have thought about that more before I posted. I agree with your comments on the 8 electrons in the outer shell of the atom. My apologies. I knew I should have taken my Ginko Biloba this morning!
Posted By: Dave T Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/30/06 09:24 PM
Sorry that I couldn't hang around but we're having a valance problem with a molecule. It seems as in a couple of electrons have skipped town and causing the molecule to have a reaction. Maybe they eloped and married a semiconductor and had dopes as kids.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/30/06 09:57 PM
(decides to take Radar up on his test. Drinks scotch and waters in an attempt to loose wieght.Falls off bar stool, and hits head on the floor.And nows sees all the molecules in pretty colors)

Dnk....
Posted By: Radar Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/30/06 10:48 PM
Perhaps the experimentation should not be limited to scotch. As Alan noted, there are many other substances crying out to be tested. We need to apply some organization to this tho.
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/31/06 03:03 PM
Guys, check this out....
http://www.electricalknowledge.com/basicelectricity1.asp


Dnk...
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/31/06 05:01 PM
Dnk -thanks for the link- now if anyone asks about atomic numbers or weights or electrons' valency bands etc., I'll be all primed up. Speakin' of which.....
Calvados!!! [ Apple brandy ]. I have access to a 1944 vintage, laid down as a celebration by a friend's grandpa when a whole bunch of American GIs and Tommies came through here headed East in a hurry. There's still half a tun left, practically pure Ethanol requiring dilution 50-50 [and no naked flames!]
Not to worry about supplies, the old boys are continuing to operate their still and attend to the ancient gnarled cider-apple trees!
Or then there's Cognac; We've made several visits to Old Cognac Town over the last 33 odd years. Hennessey offer the best visit, with a conducted tour of the site to see the processs, a film show, a short boat trip down the Charante river to view the chais, [brandy warehouses]. All free. Martell can be squeezed in later in the day after a good lunch! Unfortunately the spoilsports in the EU at Brussels now ban us [ for safety reasons!!! ] from entering the warehouses themselves. When you could go in, 20 minutes breathing the 'Angels Share',[ the alcohol and fusel-oil vapors, all part of the aging process ], gave you quite a kick! As to taking a tumble off a barstool, it's a well-known fact that alcohol provides an invisible suit of rubber armor - you can fall down stairs and bounce up unscathed. It's sober peeps who break their legs and stuff.
All in the interests of scientific investigation, of course. [Linked Image]

Alan
Posted By: Dnkldorf Re: Do electrons Oscillate? - 01/31/06 10:48 PM
>>All free<<<

If its free. it's for me....


Dnk...
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