I've described this house in this forum before, but only now am I getting around to sorting through my pics. I'd like to share some with you.

This 1957 house has a surface-mounted meter on the outside. The service wires go straight out the back of the meter pan into the wall. These pictures show what's on the inside face of the wall.

The cable - simple 3-wire cloth-covered Romex - pierces the wood sheathing without any bushing, and is anchored by a pair of bent-over nails. The cable passes through the rockwool insulation and runs inside the wall, between the vapor barrier and the drywall. It is directly under the 1/2" drywall, and runs along a stud.

This wall was covered by 1/4" plywood paneling, held in place by 1-1/4" brads. That is, 3/4" of each nail passed through the drywall, and had the potential to hit the cable. With the nails spaced all over the field - not just near the studs- it's something of a miracle that they missed all the wiring- let alone the service.

I call the cable the 'service' as there is NO disconnect of fuse until after the wire has run from the meter, up the wall, across the ceiling, and down another wall to what was originally a 6-breaker FPE panel. One might say I have some objections to this rendering of the 'nearest the point of service entry' code requirement.

Here are the pics:

I imagine that is actually the old style SE cable, Is the neutral separated strands wound around the ungrounded conductors?
They didn't start using the plastic jacket on SE until about the same time it showed up on NM.

I agree the workmanship is surprisingly bad for the old days.

Guess that goes to show you that there were 'hacks' back then also! Yes, it is surprising.

There is still a few services up here with the 'old' SE, tattered & hanging.

I suppose some might want to ask: just how do you cut open a wall that you suspect has live wires right under the surface?

There are a few ways. One of the best tools for this sort of job is the Fein Multi-master. With that tool you have an extraordinary amount of control, and you're not likely to nick the cable.

I used a small, cordless 'panel saw' - a scaled-down version of a circular saw- to cut through just the wood paneling. I then made another pass for the drywall, with the blade set very shallow. I then peeled off the paneling, and smashed through the drywall with a 2-lb. maul. "Safe" trumps "pretty" in this case.

Another tool that really proved itself on this job was an air filter made by Shop-Vac. Looking like a small jet engine, it really kept the airborne drywall dust to a minimum.

Reno:

"just how do you cut open a wall that you suspect has live wires right under the surface?"

The safety man may say that you should safe-off the power!

Over the years with tools on, had similar jobs, and a few with lath & plaster. That Fein tool is a great thing. Too bad they weren't around years back,

"The safety man may say that you should safe-off the power!"

The irony is, of course, that there is no way to 'safe off' the power .... at least, not without involving the PoCo. That's the whole point of my complaint about this arrangement.

Sure, you can wag your finger at the reckless disregard for life shown by this electrician .... but I can't help wondering about the guy who hung the paneling, and all those nails he put near the cable. I wouldn't expect him to know the cable was there- or that there was no way to turn it off. Same applies to the housewife hanging a picture.

Reno:
My comments were not meant as any insult toward you.

Just making a point, I thought with tounge in cheek.

No, John ... no offense taken! I've just had my fill of 'safety experts' and their office-born one-size-fits-all directives.

I also weary at those who look at the code and debate the meaning of the word "is" in their quest to do as shakey a job as possible.

I mean ... I'm not that smart, but ... doesn't it seem obvious that you really, really want to be able to turn the power "off?" Why must the code spell things like this out in down-to-the-last-screw detail? Do these guys need a law to remind them to tie their shoe laces?

With services like this as the 'norm' around here, I really want to watch the inspector's reaction when I get the new service installed. Hell, he just might parade the local trades past for a guided tour ... once he revives!

Likewise, I am surpprised at the resistance I get from my fellow sparkies when I mention I'm putting the kitchen on its' own sub-panel. "But you can get a big panel," they say.

Sure you can ... but even that big panel is sized to fit between the same two studs, which means there is room for only about 16 KO's. Allow for the panel feed and the large circuits (range, water heater, air conditioner, dryer), and that's 11 KO's or 22 cables (doubling up). That makes for a lot of holes in the top plate, a crowded panel, and a real spaghetti fest in the attic.

Sure, the house was built with six circuits - but there is no way it can be rewired that way! 1 bath, 2 kitchen, 1 furnace ... that's four required dedicated circuits right there.

I feel your pain. These rewires can get ugly, especially when that panel is in the corner of a house at the low point of the roof so that spaghetti fest is starting in a point of the attic that is less than a foot high. You need a skinny helper who is not allergic to insulation

Greg,

One way to get rid of services installed like the one above is to require every service to have a disconnect with OCP outside of the house. This way any wire that enters the house is protected. I don't know how many services we had to repair after the Telco guy drilled through the service cable. Which usually terminates within feet of the electrical service.

I am seeing a lot more outside disconnects these days. That may become the industry standard some day. Right now the only general requirement for one is on a piling house where the main panel is on the 2d floor and the meter base is on the "open" grade level. They know that area under the house will be enclosed making that "outside" SE cable "inside".

Sorry to Hijack this thread.....

Here in the UK, there is limit of 2m between the output side of the meter & the breaker panel. If you cant meet this requirement then you need to provide overcurrent protection before the start of the run (ie at the meter) to the breaker panel. Is there no similar regulation in the NEC?

Adrian:
No there is no length dimensions within the NEC. It has been this way, and perhaps someday, it may include a dimension.

We use..."closest to the point of entry" which leaves the decission to the inspector.

My brother's house has unprotected running from meter to ground, and then across under the 2-car garage pad to the basement, then about 1 foot down to the MCB panel. I don't know how far under the pad it is. The pad mount transformer is about 25 feet away, 100 kVA, 2.75%, shared with 2 other houses. Wire sizes unknown. A fault under the garage could be interesting.

That is still "outside" as far as the NEC is concerned.
In fact we got around an unprotected SE to a fire pump controller once by forming up a trough, dropping a 2" rigid conduit in it and pouring it solid with concrete so it was 2" in from all directions.

One of the AHJs in my area finally put a distance of 6 feet as a limit he would allow an unprotected run inside a house. Until I pressed him for this number his answer was always "a reasonable distance". I always install a disconnect(s) on the outside, I have heard too many firefighters say how nice it is to be able to shut off power without having a meter base wide open with live parts inside. They might have to come to my house one day, so I try to be nice to them.

In Canada the CEC does not allow the OCP to be outdoors (ammended in 2012 code when adopted) and the rule for how far the service wires can go into the building is as close as practicable. That translates differently depending on where you work. I look at it like this if i can find a place that makes the service wires shorter then the panel must be located there. Some jurisdictions say as close as feesible but no further than 5 feet. This of course gets translated to anywhere within 5 feet even if a closer location was easy to do.

That is strange. How do you deal with things like lift stations and fair grounds if OCP is not allowed outside?

Mikesh said..."That translates differently depending on where you work."

That sounds like we have a similar situation in some areas here also.

Not being able to install a MOCP on the exterior sounds like a real bad 'rule' in quite a few instances.

This "loophole" has been in the code forever. Word games aside, I just cannot make the case for not having an OCPD, or at least a disconnect, on a circuit. It just seems extremely obvious that you would want a way to turn things 'off.'

Everyone puts their socks on before their shoes- yet there is no law saying you must. It' just one of those 'obvious' things. I would place 'have a disconnect' in this same category. I just can't imagine not having one.

Well, that's not correct. I can imagine ... being first introduced to the trade in Chicago, it was common to have just a meter base on the outside of the house. The catch was that the wires then went into a rigid nipple, straight through the brick wall, and directly into a panel on the opposite face of the wall. Nobody could hang a picture on that unprotected bit of wire without passing through the panel itself.

The arrangement in the pictures - up the wall, across the room, down the wall- and all of it just under the drywall - just offends every instinct of mine.

I'm delighted that this thread has kicked off the discussion. Maybe it IS time for the NEC to address the issue.

Reno:
Maybe for 2017? It may be difficult to arrive at 'wording', but...let's think about it starting with good old common sense (which is not within the NEC defs)

I think the biggest impediment to "back to back" installations is the basement. The meter has to be eye high at grade so you are either running the SE inside the home or you are punching a hole in the wall below grade, directly into the main panelboard enclosure. That may work in the desert but anyplace where it rains can be a problem.

Maybe we could remove "where subject to physical damage" from 230.50(B)(1) where it is inside the building and assume any SE cable inside the home is subject to physical damage (an undefined term anyway).
At least that would get it in pipe.
Personally I would say rigid/intermediate metal pipe but that may be a bridge too far. Maybe add EMT.
The problem with RNC, even sch80, is, a drywall screw goes right through it. It feels like wood to an 18v screw gun.

The basic 'unwritten rule' that is followed around here for the panel in basement scenario is:
Drill in above sill plate; turn straight down, and enter the panel. This works for even the high ceiling basements.

This seems to work for 'mostly' everyone. Yes, we get the occasional, drill in, turn left for xx' then down into the panel. That don't work!

Commercial jobs, specially the older ones that opted for the good ol' 6 switch rule is where it gets interesting. Bring on the concrete!!

Wording? Have the 'six throws' rule specify that the disconnects will be part of, or immediately next to, the meter enclusure.

With 'tamper resistant' meter rings now the norm, we cannot rely upon pulling the meter as a disconnecting means.

Reno:
Yes, pulling the meter is getting to not be an option. We have a variety of rings, barrel locks, larger brass 'ghetto' locks, etc., all property of the POCO.

I've seen quite a few very interesting attempts by people to 'get it open', some of which are really scarry.

I have to find some time to look thru my pic scrapbook for some of the really interesting ones!

The issue here is related to the fact that most of we canuks see outdoor locations for OCD as rust prone. OC devices are also not temperature compensated. If it is hot the breakers trip early if the panel is in a high ambient. (think Death Valley) but if it is below 0C or 32 F the trip time goes up and can increase OL trips by a lot of time.
For locations where outdoor services are accepted like saw services or traffic controlers there is no building to put the panel inside. A pedistal service for a motor home and such are exceptions. The CEC has adopted a rule that will permit an outdoor main but the branch circuits and even another main inside the building may be required to deal with overload. This allow the protected conductors to run inside the building where a panel migh have a better location than an exterior wall.

Overload protection could be handled by the main in the load side panel in the house. You are basically only looking for short circuit protection from the outside service OCP.
If the inside panel was MLO I can see your concern about the trip curve when the feeder was sized by 310.15(B)(6).
I suppose the answer would be in the breaker trip curve graph.

As for rust, We have a far worse problem with that here. That may be why plastic enclosures are becoming so popular.

I guess this is what you might call the 'discussion' or 'negotiation' stage.

As a bare minimum, I want to be able to turn off the power at the meter- manually, automatically, or both. I don't care. I just want you to be able to do SOMETHING when Granny bangs a picture-hanger into those high-amp wires ... besides cooking marshmallows for arriving firefighters, as you wait on the PoCo.

Trip curve? Ambient compensation? In nearly every instance, I don't really care how accurate the breaker is. It's powering a feeder, with far smaller branch circuit protection downstream.

FWIW, some of the hottest parts of the USA are also the places where ALL of the breakers are mounted outside the house. High-ambient nuisance tripping does not seem to be an issue.

Rust? I see no reason for the disconnect box to rust any faster than the meter pan. As wet as Canada may be, I defy them, or anywhere else, to compete with the industrial cities of the North when it comes to corrosion. The "rust belt" don't go through Florida (though Toronto is pretty close).

Also, bear in mind that the UL standard was changed, perhaps as long as ten years back, to require additional rust protection. The older boxes you see rusting away often had no protection beyond the grey primer coat of paint.

I have not seen plastic enclosures, though I am aware of some RV pedestals like that. Might be a good thing - IF the plastic is a decent one. "Sun rated" PVC conduit doesn't impress me; the stuff seems to self-destruct after about eight years.

Let's not let the 'best' become the enemy of 'good enough.' Just give me a way to turn the house 'off.'

I agree with Reno on the rusting out of 'older' items that I see. In a few of the 'older' resi developments (20+ yrs old) there are numerous meter pans that have corrosion issues, & a lot that were replaced already. All are UG services, with the load side exiting thru the back of the meter pan to the panel.
The POCO BUD transformers also are showing rusting. Guess it was a bad period for paint back then!

Ambient temps here swing 100+, and I have not heard of any temp related issues with any exterior main cbs. Meter/main units are very scarce here.

Non-metalic enclosures? Sq D had a 'plastic' pull out HVAC type disco a while back, but I have not seen any recently. A few pool equipment rooms have SS enclosures, and I once had a non-metalic 40 circuit, 120/208, 4 wire panel enclosure fabricated. Pricey....heck yes!

With the newer standards, I feel the 'corrosion' issues for a new install, in a 'normal' atmosphere will be a moot point.

Reno:

One issue that nobody brought out yet against exterior mains is the joker that turns the power off & runs. A local solution is a 'breakaway' padlock, which is OK with the first responders.

FPL went to aluminum meter cans decades ago. The 3R meter mains are aluminum too most of the time.
My meter can is over 25 years old and it is still shiny.

Those meter pans may invite the scrap hounds up here!

Never saw one, Greg.

I have not heard of anyone stealing a meter can but they might try to strip out copper wire. I doubt they would do it twice after that service drop started sparking.

"You can make things accident proof and foolproof, but you cannot make them proof against deliberate malice." Arthur C. Clarke.

A good parable there Reno, however, someone always seems to create a new and improved model of a fool.

Someone here has a signature line with something along the same words! I think it's Ed

Most mains are on the exterior here & residential branch circuit breakers are too, & pranks do not seem to be a issue.