ECN Forum
Posted By: renosteinke Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/28/09 02:47 AM
A 1959 home was recently bought by an investor, with the intent to remodel and rent out. One thing he wanted was to replace the old fuse box with breakers.

Here we tend to have all the service equipment on the outside of the house. A lot can happen over half a century, though. Alas, this house had received a very niceely done siding job - with the result that the panel was now set into a pocket about an inch deep:

[Linked Image from i143.photobucket.com]

I got lucky. I was able to find an 'all in one' panel that fit the hole in the siding pretty close. I was able to cut the siding (aluminum, with shears) to accept a piece of strut to support the newer, larger mast. It also helped that the inside wall behind the panel was opened to do some other work. Here's the result:

[Linked Image from i143.photobucket.com]

That tan thing set in the wall is the kitchen exhaust fan.
Posted By: jdevlin Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/29/09 04:31 PM
photos not showing up.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/29/09 04:39 PM
Darn it! They WERE there! I'll re-post.
Posted By: EV607797 Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/29/09 06:05 PM
Wow, that indoor panel was outdoors for fifty years without failure? That's pretty impressive in my book.

What are they going to do about that hole in the siding where the old meter socket was? That looks like a haven for bees if it remains open like that.

Just as a comment, I would have probably figured out a way to get rid of that 1/2" EMT on the left or at least rework it so it comes up into the bottom of the panel.

You are right: The chances of finding an all-in-one that fits the existing hole nearly perfectly is probably a once in a lifetime accomplishment.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/29/09 09:41 PM
You bring up some good points.

First, I do not think there even was such a thing as an 'outdoor enclosure' in 1959. I believe the NEMA designations came about in the early 70's ... and I do know we were well into the 80's before UL recognized them (UL had their own criteria until then).

Also note the mild corrosion. Panels of that time were often just painted; only recently have they been required to be galvanized as well as painted.

The 1/2" EMT to the right posed another problem: swollen insulation. That is, the cloth/rubber wire insulation had swollen with time, and it wasn't about to come out of that pipe. So, I simply made it fit the panel as best I could; that's why it's a bit off-plumb.

As for the siding, the property owner (and HVAC contractor) claimed he would patch / seal the old meter opening. As there was a siding crew working (literally) next door at the time, I would not be surprised if he conned them out of a scrap piece or two.

This job, like most, had plenty of other little 'quirks.' It was particularly of concern to me because it was my first service change, first permit pulled, since I "went solo." I had done work for the customer before, but never on my own, and he was a bit nervous. Meanwhile, the city has laid off its' entire building department, and the inspections were carried out by parks department employees (oh joy!). The PoCo, having just undergone a re-orginization, had also made some major changes in how these service changes were to be done.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/30/09 12:11 AM
Reno:
Being a east coast guy...is that an 'all-in-one'? Meter and branch breakers?

BTW: Yes, luck was on your side, nice!!!
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/30/09 01:35 AM
Parks Department!? laugh
Posted By: NORCAL Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/30/09 01:59 AM
Originally Posted by renosteinke
You bring up some good points.

First, I do not think there even was such a thing as an 'outdoor enclosure' in 1959. I believe the NEMA designations came about in the early 70's ... and I do know we were well into the 80's before UL recognized them (UL had their own criteria until then).

Also note the mild corrosion. Panels of that time were often just painted; only recently have they been required to be galvanized as well as paint



I have seen a good number of rain tight Cutler-Hammer XO meter/dist panels(meter socket & 12 circuit main lug panel in one) of 1958 or earlier vintage as locally there were subdivisions full of them & a lot of them are still in service.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/30/09 02:24 AM
Hotline, yes, that is an "all-in-one." The lower compartment contains both the main breaker, as well as the branch circuit brealers.

A more common design is split vertically, with the meter on one side and the breakers on the other.

Alan ... I did NOT make that up. The gent had clearly just watched a training video, and had no idea as to how houses were built - either in 1958, or today. A town must have it's priorities in order ....

Norcal, you continue to amaze me. Indeed, I can't say I've seen any 1958 houses with breakers at all; fuses seem to be the rule, and this house had a larger fusebox than is typical. I suppose it's a good thing that around here "rain" is found only in the dictionary laugh
Posted By: gfretwell Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/30/09 03:53 AM
The house I grew up in had breakers in 1954 (old SqD) but that may have had to do with the GI bill. There were lots of things a "GI' house was supposed to have. (they may have only been inspected around DC tho) We had the 3 wire Romex too but with the downsized neutral.
Posted By: NORCAL Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/30/09 08:08 AM
I live in a house built in 1943, original panels were 2- SQ D 2-pole Multibreaker load centers nippled together over the kitchen counter providing the generous sum of 4 circuits in the entire house, the last of which was removed in the early 1980's, The SQ D, Cutler-Hammer XO replaced the Multibreakers which in turn was obsolete by about 1960, replaced by SQ D QO & Cutler-Hammer type CH series.

Some raintite enclosures were avail in the 50's but IMO due to the lack of inspections or other factors a lot of "indoor" equipment was used outdoors because no one made them use the correct gear or build a dog house around it.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 06/30/09 09:26 PM
The 'doghouse' was a popular way of 'enclosing' gear around here a while back. Pc. of plywood & a few shingles, wow...it's protected.
Posted By: WESTUPLACE Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 07/01/09 02:35 PM
Here in TX the 2 most common ways of enclosing the panels were to mount the meter and panel under the porch roof near the ceiling, sometimes the meter would be mounted outside with the panel under the roof. (common with screen porches) The other common mount was the meter was surface mounted on the side of the house with the panel mounted below, bolted to the back side of the inside wall.(shiplap) A wood or plywood door covered access to the panel. If you opened the door, you could see the inside of the wall cavity making fishing wires easy. Many pre war houses had a 2 ckt safety switch with 2 30a ckts serving 2 14 ga K&T common neutral ckts.
Robert
Posted By: EV607797 Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 07/01/09 05:29 PM
Yeah, that's how a lot of older houses in NC are done too. A 60 amp panel with a main pullout and a range pullout, then four plug fuses below. All right out on the porch.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 07/03/09 06:39 PM
Reminds me of the old tiny farm houses in my area of Austria. All L-shaped and built next to each other with the short side facing the street. Roof spans the whole width (often no more than one room plus hallway) and on one side or down the center there's a set of huge carriage doors leading to a covered drive to the backyard (no doors on the back). When these places were wired, some of the tinier only had one circuit (10 amps I guess, maybe even 6) and the fuses and meters (fused neutrals) out in the drive.
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Service Change: I got lucky! - 07/13/09 05:41 AM
The older 1952-56 Levittown, PA houses all had fuse boxes originally, despite the ads advertising breakers. The 1957 models came with breakers as far as I know, apparently Levitt couldn't get a three-pull-out panel for the added central A/C for cheap enough!

Almost every house that still has the original service around here is a ticking time bomb, with all of the added air conditioners, appliances, not to mention additions!

John, that install looks good, nice to see it work out, I'd probably do something similar. Oh, and is that asbestos I spy behind that strut? wink

Ian A.
© ECN Electrical Forums