Quartz Halogen Ignition - ECN Electrical Forums

From Rewired

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First off I would like to wish everyone a Happy New Year, and would also like to share the following pictures of what I saw Late Saturday night upon returning home.
Sorry for the poor quality but the attached pictures are of whats left of a neighbours wooden garden shed, used for storage of everything ranging from computer equipment, old LP records, photos and the like. Apparently what had happened is the neighbour hung a portable quartz halogen worklight off the ceiling and plugged it into an extension cord that also served some jerry-rigged lights in the yard... Apparently the neighbour forgot to turn off (unplug) the light in the shed, and had turned on (plugged in) the lights for the yard and left them on, all the time the quartz fixture must have been near some combustables and well, you see the result. Flames were seen 20-25 feet above the house, and the heat was so intense it cracked a window on the house about 20 feet from the shed, and melted plastic recycling bins, tarps, furniture in adjoining yards.

I will admit, the PREVIOUS owner of the house had me install a receptacle in the garage, of which this CURRENT owner "plugged the shed into". The circuit is GFI protected and the GFI did trip and cut power off to the shed, probably as soon as the cord melted and way before the fire department started hosing the structure down. Too bad the place was already burning.

Guess it shows that some people lack basic "common sense" to the point they are dangerous to themselves and those around them.

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-01-2007).]

Yikes! Noone hurt, I hope?

The fire department here had a PSM about halogen torch lights being hazardous around drapes and such (they use the same lamp as the work lights) You'd think people would realize the amount of heat coming from these things and keep them in the open..... guess not (there's been halogen related fires here local a couple times in the past) [Linked Image]

I like to give my customers a brief description of how a GFCI works, why using the proper wattage lightbulb in a light fixture is important (heat), why to keep proper clearance in front a panel, and the importance of updating incadescent lamps in clothes closets to a more safer fluorescent light, whenever the opportunity presents itself. Some of them really could careless, and others like that I recognize a hazardous condition and tell 'em so. If the HO here had used 40-50 watt fluorescent lamps instead of the halogen (probably 500 watts), the shed would still standing. It's a shame when electrical fires occur because most of them could have been avoided.

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It's a shame when electrical fires occur because most of them could have been avoided.

This was not a fire of electrial origin in my opinion.
Don

What's wrong with using standard incandescents or compact fluorescent bulbs when lighting up a place like that?

Why would anyone use a halogen lamp in a confined space when those things are fire-breathers? [Linked Image]

Luckily nobody got killed.

That fire,IMO was just being careless there has been more then one fire started w/ halogen lights, read one story where someone had tossed a towel on top of a torchere to dry. [Linked Image]

Well no one was hurt in this mess thank God but just to let you all know, the owner of " whats left" is not the " brightest lamp in the chandelier" so to speak. I have warned him MANY MANY times what I have seen him do electrically IS a fire hazard.. The previous owner and I pulled out many fire hazards around that house, and this new owner is putting them back in!

Resqcapt19: I kind of had this thought as well.. Do you think the fire is kind of " suspicious" looking????

A.D

Same reasoning for lights in closets being covered or flouresent.

Hey, put a sock in it! - this is ECN not a gossip column! First you imply your neighbor is stupid, then you accuse him of being a possible arsonist, plus you identify the actual neighborhood with some fine photographs. I hope you've got a good lawyer.

Alan

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Resqcapt19: I kind of had this thought as well.. Do you think the fire is kind of " suspicious" looking????

No...I am just saying that a fire caused by the heat from a light fixture is not a fire of electrical origin, although in most cases it will be reported as such. This type of fire cause reporting is what has led to the AFCI requirement. It is my opinion that a large number of fires that have been reported as of electrial origin are not really caused by an electrical problem and this is just one example of that.
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 01-04-2007).]

That's an interesting take on it. I'm under the impression that a light bulb, wether it be in a portable lamp or a ceiling/ wall mount light fixture, is still electrical in nature. Would this be considered an electrical fire ONLY if say a 100W lamp was used where a 60W lamp was required?

What I'm asking is, what constitutes an electrical fire?

I would limit the description "electrical" to a fire caused by arcing, a short circuit, or a loose connection getting hot. An overloaded wire would qualify. Wires that short out because the insulation has degraded would qualify.

Plugging in an electric charcoal lighter, and placing it under the sofa cushions, does not make an 'electrical fire.'

Even failure within an appliance would not (most likely) make it an "electrical" fire; that would be an appliance fire. I generally limit the 'electrical' category to the house wiring, and not anything that might be plugged in at the time.

Last winter, I was called to fix a water heater circuit. I found that there had been a short between one of the "hot" wires, and the EMT; a very nice hole had been burned through the steel by the arc. Had that arc ignited the floor joists nearby, that would have been a 'fire of electrical origin.'

On the other hand, if someone set up an electric space heater by there bed, and a blanket fell across the heater, and ignited ... that is not an 'electrical' fire.

As long as the electrical system is working properly, you probably won't have an electrical fire.

That's how I see it.

As Don said,

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This was not a fire of electrical origin in my opinion.

I would tend to back Don up too.
There is no way that electricity started this fire.
My reasons:
The fire looks to be far too hot for a source of electricity.
Why is everything around this shed scorched?.
IMHO this shed was torched.
I say that because of the depth of burn on the up-rights comprising the shed.
It all suggests a very hot fire,from the start, one started with accelerants.
Easiest way to be sure is look at the concrete pad.
Cement never lies.
A lot of people seem to think that Concrete never burns.
Everything burns if it gets hot enough, I've seen Fibre-Glass Batts burn like Candy Floss.
An elevated temperature, will burn most things folks.
Take what you like from that. [Linked Image]

POI was the roof.

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I'm under the impression that a light bulb, wether it be in a portable lamp or a ceiling/ wall mount light fixture, is still electrical in nature.

I agree that they will be called that by most fire departments and that is the reason that AFCIs won't really prevent a lot of fires. There is no way that an AFCI would prevent the light fixture from starting a fire, but if you call this type a fire an fire of elecrical origin, it becomes part of the statistics that were used to say that we need AFCIs.
Don

Alan: RELAX! No need to get bent outta shape bud.
Ya I did "imply" a few things.. so what... Ya I have pictures... Find the neighbourhood. Honestly off the record here.. "it wouldn't surprise me" is what I think... Nuff said.
Anyway Mike, Don: thank you for your professional take on it. What you stated makes sense to me.. BTW.. No "teltale" concrete pad, shed was just sitting on the dirt rotting from the bottom up

A.D

Touché, AD ! [Linked Image]

- But too late, I've been bent out of shape for years! [Linked Image]

However, I located you in less than 2 minutes flat, using an intuitive Canada surname phone search. Then I flew right in using Google Earth to the two possible locations, eliminating one as the houses were too close together.

Small world, ain't it, bud? [Linked Image]

Don:
Not that you need it, but I also agree with your thoughts on this subject. Some Fire Investigators (NOT all) use 'electrical origin' for a catch all. The AFCI proponents eat this up, even though an AFCI could not prevent this. NJ still has not adopted AFCI requirements this code cycle.

Mike: (Trumpy)
Good day! Would not your determination have to be also based on the contents of the shed, construction material, and other factors? Not disputing your opinion, or knowledge in this field, but I'm curious.
Had lawn equip, or fuel been inside, that's your accelerant, no?

John

It isn't just the use of "electrical origin" as a catch-all for fires that the investigators can't easily explain. The whole "science" of fire investigation is starting to get some serious scrutiny, with several arson convictions being overturned in light of emerging knowledge:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/29/AR2006122901920_pf.html http://malabar.livejournal.com/263698.html

[This message has been edited by NJwirenut (edited 01-05-2007).]

John,
I concede you are right, I was wrong.
However, with not having been "on-scene" I can only go by a few photo's.
Usually as a Fire Safety Officer I was part of the local Fire Brigade Operational Staff anyway.
So I would be in attendance at any fire like this.
It lets you see how well the structure is burning and where it is burning from and the colour of the flames.
Once you get down and sift through the remains of a building, you've lost most of your forensic evidence.