Here I've got pics of some real steep old wiring from Austria. A tenant told me the old owner of the house (roughly 30 apartments, built around 1905) died in 1983, and from that day NOTHING was done to the house. The daughter lived in NYC and only flew to Austria every few years, lodged at Vienna's most expensive hotel, had the manager drive her around in his Rolls and cashed all rent money.
Note: in Austria if you own an apartment house it's very common to get a property management company that does all the work like taking care of the finances, deciding about smaller repairs and getting rid of tenants who complain of problems in their apartments. I know those management companies both as a tenant and son of a landlord in another place and neither like them. Their main job seems to be to get as much cash as possible out of the house without handing it over to the owner. That usually results in low-quality repairs if any.

This particular manager went belly up with about 50 000 Euro debt, went to jail for two years and now runs the next property management company...

Anyway. The wiring is most likely original in most parts, some stuff was redone in the 50s, some even later, but that's mostly patch work.

I don't know for sure what this is, but I think the main feed from the street comes in at the right top corner and at the bottom you have a cable that goes through the cellar to the riser that feeds all apartments.



A main fuse box. Pretty neat compared with what you'll see later.


The HRC fused switch at the left is probably the main fuse as it isn't labeled and there are 100A fuses in it. The one to the right is for a small shop and only has 25A fuses in it. 3 Diazed fuses would have been enough...
The D III fuses above are the main fuses for an apartment and a set of unused fuses. 35A. 3x35A is hefty, even considering the apartment is 200m2.

Those fuses are ahed of the meters and every tenant has got a key to these fuse boxes.

Yikes, what a mess!


Most of the fuses are unused because either the apartments are vacant or two apartments have been connected together. Still, it looks awful, and somebody removed PoCo disconnect stickers.

The meter box for the elevator, dated February 1958.



Detail of the fuses and switch


That's some kind of phone patch panel that seems to run most of the block according to the old labeling.


To be continued...

That's a scary one. Located in a hallway that leads to the back yard and the trash cans, the door can't be locked any more. The diazed fuses without a cover are live.


Old lead cables, probably phone.


Old isolators tell stories of long forgotten wires...



One last look back before really going down in the cellar...


The basement fuses... conveniently located high above the stairs. Standing on the top step they're well above my head (and I'm 190cm). Fused neutral as always.


The water piping isn't much better than the electrical. A mix of iron (already rusted again), lead pipe and flexible hose (a recent hack job, joining two pieces of 1/2" pipe with 3/8" hose...)


Wooden junction boxes...

Anyone guess what this is?


Covers??? Why???


What's that cable coming out the bottom of the light???


Oh... never mind.


That's just the cord of that old desk lamp nailed to the wall.

Clamps?


A nice surprise... that's old but perfect.


I strongly suspect that's the only ground for the entire house (TT system).

Those "spider webs" are probably live...


That's definitely live, coneveniently at hand heigth.


That's got to be one of the worst DIY hack jobs I've ever seen.


That one looks awfully solid...


Does that tell us anything? *scratch*

This thread has been moved to the Photo's submitted For Discussion Forum.

Yuk, I can imagine the condition of the old building and the wiring from my days in the Netherlands and some work i have done in Northern France near Reims.

Very interesting photo's.
A good variety of 10, 16, 20, 25 and 35 Amp diazed fuses here.

The polyphase kWh meter looks very new to me.
I was expecting to see an old Landis & Gyr MG1 series meter here.

I guess that the guess what is a lightswitch. it looks like it might be a switch that screws into an ES lampholder?

I love old electrical stuff. It is far more interesting than new stuff, you can actually see stuff working. We are upgrading our factory wiring at the moment. The oldest stuff is 1938 era but most has been modernised 1968 era. We have a board that has 100A rewirable fuses in it!

Meters get swapped regularly for recalibration, so sometimes fairly new meters find their way into extremely old installations.

Yes, it's a light switch, nut not one that screws into an ES socket. It's a waterproof outdoor switch with a drip cap above the wires! I'll give my best to save that old stuff as they rewire the cellar.

Yesterday I received a sudden cold shower... I was carrying a door which was taller than the ceiling. trying to get it upright I hit one of the water pipes and a load of condensate dripped onto my neck...

On the other hand, it could have been far worse considering the state of the pipes...

While i realize that there is a lot of work to be done here, it does seem like a really neat old building. Assuming that you are starting over, it must be kinda fun to work in.

Unfortunately I'm not working there, my parents are tenants...

The house itself is beautiful and must have been very modern when it was built. Where at that time all houses had wooden ceilings or vaulted brick ceiling, this one has those weird concrete ceilings throughout. In the living spaces and hallways they nailed reeds to the bottom of the concrete and plastered over them.

It also still has the original elevator!

Front view:


The elevator:


The sign says: "Caution Elevator!"
Inside it's all oak and carved glass... I LOVE it!
Unfortunately the owners want to replace it.

Wow. thats not something you don't see everyday. Smack the owners for even thinking about replacing that. Make sure its up to code and keep it there for as long as possible. It adds a lot of character to the place, and is a neat conversation peice. Its too bad about the mismanagement. This has the potential to really be something neat.

I imagine they want to replace the elevator because it is a death trap, with few if any safety devices.

The wiring was done by Frank N. Stien Electric Inc.

In pic 14, (Weather head) it appaers to be a weather-head with intergral switch, maybe for the lamp holder next to it? Maybe complete porcilin construction. I think I remember seeing one in Spain.

Yup, exactly! It's probably as old as the house it's in.

The elevator isn't that much a death trap. The mechanics were completely rebuilt in 1958 and it's one of the few items in the house that's been updated regularly (well, they were forced to, elevators have to be checked by an independent authority yearly and if they don't comply they are disconnected). It's got new automatic door locks inside and outside, a new (1 year) emergency intercom system and some other stuff. I guess it's safer than some newer elevators around (small elevators from the 50s through 80s only had one set of doors, the cab didn't have a door and occasionally people decapitate themselves by lugging stuff like trash cans in them and getting squeezed to death between the can and the wall of the cab. I think those have to be retrofitted until next year or something like that.).

The two reasons why the owners want to get rid of it are: while reasonably safe for such an old thing it's never PERFECTLY up to code, so there is a small but existant liability issue. On the other hand they want to finish the attic and add a whole floor, so they planned to extend the elevator. That would be easier putting in a new one. However, I heard the giy who's in charge (the owners are a HUGE company that owns several hundred if not thousand houses in Austria and Germany) talk to the architect if it wouldn't be cheaper to leave the old one in place.

The tenants aren't really happy with the perspective of being without an elevator for half a year.

The feeling of going up in that elevator is indescribeable. Gently riding up in almost full silence, only interrupted by very low creaks of the wooden cab... you just don't get that any more!

Some other elevators of that age had another nice feature... tenants had a key to it, but visitors had to throw in a coin!
Used to be 1 Schilling over decades, when it was introduced that was like $1 today, in the end it was more like 10 cents. Don't know what happened to them after the introduction of the Euro. I wouldn't be surprised if most of them still took Schilling coins because the owners thought "well, let's just have the tenants use it, they have a key anyway."
Oh yeah, a friend of mine said to me in her house there's a sign: "Only use new Schilling coins!" (which were issued some time in the 1950s... the old ones wouldn't have fit anyway because they were much bigger).

Really great pics, thanks for sharing them!! I hope they don't get rid of that old elevator too..but lose that tacky metal "cage" around it!!

In pic #11, it looks like something caught fire next to those fuses and above the door..any idea as to what?

I have to admit I like that metal cage too... it's an original part of the whole assembly. Every elevator of that age has it.

I think that's from someone putting a candle on top of the door frame, maybe while working on the fuses or wiring since it's not directly above any wires that might have burnt.

Some updates... that scary "spider web" wiring is no longer live, just old wires dangling around.

And two days ago the elevator stopped working for some reason. Went up to the 4th floor and refused to come down again. I assume the problem lies next to the door, there are sensors that tell the controls whether the doors are closed or not and probably they quit working.
While checking into it I found three out of the five fuses that beast is running on are jumpered with strands of copper wire though...
There are 2 6 Amp fuses for the lights (hot and neutral, both jumpered) and 3 20 Amp fuses for the 3ph motor (once 380V, now 400), one of which has been "repaired".

Update: they already fixed the elevator! *fireworks*

Is there any way to put the pictures on ECN's server? Photobucket is blocked at my work's computer terminals.


I thought your parents owned the house you lived in?

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 12-01-2006).]

Yup, Sven, you're correct. But that's where they have their office, 5 minutes from home.

The wiring has gotten even more scary... they removed some partition walls and simply tied the wiring loosely to the water pipes!

T-R, I do hope you save some of that stuff.

I'd give anything for one of those fuse holders or those switches. Well...anything within reason.

You believe there's actually a radio parts vendor here in the USA that sells Diazed and Neozed fuses?

I already salvaged some of the switches and junction boxes.
Fuse holders are no problem either.
We just need to figure out the shipping.

Ragnar, that's cool. I can give you an address in London they could be send to sometime later this month (my job's London office is moving...)

Ragnar:

OK. I'll do so probably by next Monday. It will be under a different name though...so don't be surprised (if you're confused, I'll explain).

I hope they don't take out the old lift from the building, that thing's a classic. Is there any way you can get inside pictures of the car when you get a chance?

I still remember some office buildings in New York having manually operated lifts (with a lever and an accordion gate) run by a man who would pay attention to the lights on a panel so he would know what floors had requested the lift.

Of course, once inside, you'd just call out your floor to the man.

And this was when I was growing up in the 1980s. I miss those things...

Ok.

I think I'll post the elevator pics in a new thread to avoid long loading times.

This one is self-operated... it only goes up. Unlock the wire door (every tenant has a key), open the sliding oak door, get in, close the wouter door, then the inner. Push the button for the desired floor and wait. Open both doors, close the inner one, push a button between the two doors and close the outer one. After a few seconds the light goes out, you'll hear a solid "clank" and the cab goes down to the first floor automatically. No way of going down in that thing, unless you have someonae closing the door after you (doors have to be closed in the right sequence) and don't mind going down in the dark. I LOVE that beast!

Some even had a coin slot, so visitors without a key could use it too. I don't know what happened to them after the changeover to Euro though, the last (and only) time I used one we still had the old Schilling currency. Cost 1 Schilling (roughly 10 US cents) a ride.

Ragnar,
Is that for real?.
Never heard of a lift that only goes up.

Regardless of what has been said before,
There are some very good pics here.
Not only the electrical work, but the way that the buildings are constructed.
They don't build places like this anymore.

That's absolutely true. All those 1900 lifts only go up unless they've been fitted with all new controls. This one was actually completely rebuilt in 1958 but still only goes up.

Yeah, the construction of that place is something.
The cellar walls are close to 1m thick I think.

The concrete ceilings must have been a very modern thing back then, the house where I live is almost 10 years "newer" and it still has the old fashioned mix of wood beam ceilings and brick vault ceilings.

Those floor tiles in the stairway are full 2cm thick! Today replacement tiles of that kind kost 70-110 Euro/sq m!

Hanging ceiling lights to those ceilings is a pain though. They simply nailed some reeds to the bottom of those concrete structures and plastered over. So where there's a cavity the ceiling won't hold anything, and if you hit a concrete "rib" it's rock hard. I tried to do one using a standard hammer drill... it was a pain. Should I have to do more I'll definitely use my Bosch hammer.
Here in this place you can screw into a beam, or lightweight fixtures even screw into the lathe (like for example the famous chinese rice paper balloons). Besides, there's usually a strong hook screwed into the old gas light line. Tested to hold up chandeliers that have to be carried by two strong men...

As of today the lift is dead. R.I.P.
The sign says it#ll b back in service in July... so I'm afraid the NEW one will be in service by then. The control box already has a sticker on it: "Please keep! Kaufmann, apt. 24"
I made a video of going up in it, if I find a way to compress it I'll upload it to Youtube.

That's sad about the lift.

I hope it just means they're going to refurbish the existing one? I'm sure there's a way it can be modernized but at the same time keep the old passenger cage with a new control panel.

P.S. Did you ever manage to figure out the shipping on the old switch/socket/fuse holder?
Thanks.



[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 02-22-2007).]

SvenNYC.

You can get those diazed fuses on Ebay Germany.

Believe it or not the electrical wholesalers sells those of the shelf in New Zealand too.
These fuses are used a lot in timber mills and inported 3 phase lathes.

Type in "Ebay Deutschland" in google

Look under "Neonised" or "Diazed" Sicherung
http://cgi.ebay.de/Sicherungen-655-...Z001QQcategoryZ36808QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Edited to insert link.




[This message has been edited by RODALCO (edited 02-22-2007).]

I have no idea... so far they just started to rip apart the old one - the control panel is missing, some of the conduit is just broken and wires cut and they removed the main cables that hold up the cab. Looks pretty sad.

Before they took it out I even shot a video going up in that thing. If I manage to compress it far enough I'll upload it to Youtube for all of you to watch.

Sorry, I completely forgot about the fuse holders!
I'll weigh one and try to find out shipping costs to the US!

Ok, grab a seat... shipping for 2 fuse holders with screw caps and fuses would be roughly 15 Euros!
Since they're not that heavy (250g each) I guess a heavier parcel wouldn't be much more expensive, so if you wanted anything else shipping would be less costly.

Regarding the French plugs you once wanted: I'm sorry to tell you just after I promised them to you the Czech supermarket stopped carrying rewireable plugs...

Now it's final. The elevator is gone.
Today they took the angle grinder to it.

I only managed to save a few small parts like signs, the ceiling light, door hinges, handles and the original alarm button, a bell button with ivory knob and oak casing.

A really really sad sight!

That's tragic.

But at least you managed to get some relics from it.....and photos.

It's a shame that that's all that will remain. Hopefully they'll make the new elevator look a bit like the old one, so it doesn't look too out of place.

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 03-08-2007).]

Considering how cheap those people are I'm pretty sure they are going to keep the old metal cage and only remove the door to put in a new standard elevator cage with doors. Otherwise they'd have to pay for a new stair rail as well and I just can't see that in the future. They even left the old wooden meter board in place and will probablly only install a new breaker panel to avoid messing around with meter wiring (which would force them to upgrade several things because new PoCo codes apply)...

Most tenants are pretty sad... except for one family... "Thanks heaven! Finally that old stuff is gone! Hope they'll put in something decent!"
I have to admit I was close to physically attacking that guy... it hasn't been the first fight with that particular family.

Wow, you can get quite emotional, no?

Having lived a good part of my young life in old, decrepit buildings like that, I can probably understand why he would think like that.

The buildings I lived in ... some are beautiful, I loved how they looked outside, and all the architectural details inside.

But the conditions were not all that good, because unfortunately the landlord wouldn't invest in the building. Some of the tenants also didn't give a *$%# and made things worse, in fact.

Rotten water pipes, rotten electric wires, stairs that were all crooked from age, leaky roof. The steam heat & hot water didn't work sometimes, etc.

So, while it's unfortunate that the nice-looking old stuff has to go; when you're living in environments like that, something new that works properly can be a blessing.

I remember one of the apartment buildings I lived in, back in 1980-82 had a toilet with a tank high up on the wall. As a five-year-old I loved it. But my mom noticed that the tank was coming loose from the plaster and she was afraid it was going to fall down some day.

She pestered the landlord enough that he finally came and replaced it with a modern toilet that didn't look so charming....but at least there were no worries about a tank shattering on someone's head.

Well, that elevator worked... besides, he lives on the second floor, not the fifth or something like that!
I had a few arguments with that family over a lot more serious topics, so I'm a bit sensitive. And no, I wouldn't have attacked him... I was just a bit angry.
Most of the tenants are really sad to see the elevator go!

The metal cage stayed, the elevator is gone. New one has steel doors that go all the way up to the ceiling and block all light to the stairs.

The basement has been rewired. Honestly, it looks almost as scary as the old wiring, or at least just plain sloppy. Drunk looking conduit (PVC), sometimes no separate clamps for the conduit, just ty-wrap it to the old one next to it... long exposed cable runs, sometimes ty-wrapped to rebar... everything.
Besides someone stole the old stairway fixtures (each worth $100 I guess).

Checking through this thread, I just realized that not all of the image links got moved to the ECN server.

So with apologies from ECN mods to anyone who was having trouble with Photobucket links, and a few months late, if you now start back at the top of the thread you should be able to see everything.

Oh, thanks!
If I manage I'll take pictures of the new wiring this weekend (already started but my memory card was full).