Thanks to ianh for the following:




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any idea of the exact cause? looks nasty

It's not that pub, is it?!

No, it's not that pub, but the next lot of photos might be.....

My opinion is that the fire started (or was at it's most intense) in the area where the cables came into the distribution board. This is the top right area in photo 2.

I'll know more at the end of the week as a fire investigator is coming over to the island to have a look at it.

Edited to add this bit :

If you look closely at the photos, can you spot an earth wire anywhere? This should be a TT installation....

[This message has been edited by ianh (edited 03-01-2006).]

I can't even see where the earth busbar out of the melted unit is!

Was that separate MCB/RCD unit on the left feeding anything? I can see only the feeders going to it.

The RCD on the left is fed from the meter and then goes into the distribution board.

When the fire brigade attended, they hosed the lot down with water! I know that there are a lot of fire fighters on this board - would you use water???

Ah... I was thinking that was the remains of an RCD on the right of the board itself.

Water? Probably not the best choice!

Can't see one, they all look like earth wires after this though

Sand, powder or CO2 for electrical fires aint it?? water sounds strange, although there is an opinion that once an electrical fire has started then there is presumed a dead short anyway and more water will trip the service fuse, but Im not sure Id take that course of action, maybe there are some firefighters on here that could answer the question about putting electrical fires like this one out.
Regards Dave.

Water on electrical fires? Isn't there an issue with shock hazard to the fireman hosing it down? Or are fire hoses designed to protect the fireman from that?

The firemen most likely had disconnected the service main to the house.

Although I could imagine that disconnection in some housefires is not always immediaely acheivable, and the firemen have to wade in and spray water over live stuff anyway. Scary huh.

The firemen hadn't disconnected the service, as this is not done in the UK or on our island. The only way to get a service disconnected is by the PoCO.

The other reason I know they hadn't disconnected the service is the first thing the guy who was hosing the place down said to me was "You should've seen the sparks coming off that board!"

Yeah Kier,
Rob,
I've been a Fire-fighter for some years now and with sending my guys into a place, I wouldn't do it unless the place was dead.
We cut the power here at the Mains fuse or get a Faultsman (usually me ) to pull the pole fuse before entering.
Ian,
I'd like to see above the area pictured.
How bigger area did this burn?.
One thing I hate about plastic gear (as opposed to old bakelite) is the fact that you have nothing left to investigate a fire with.

Ian,
I just saw your post above mine!.
That guy deserves to do something, I haven't worked out what yet!.

I've got a photo looking from the upstairs down through a hole in the floor. I've sent it to you via e-mail - you might want to post it on the forum.

Talking with the fire investigator this afternoon, his thoughts are that it started in the void between the downstairs ceiling and the upstairs floorboards and burnt its way down.

I was thinking about going to the Fire Brigade and talking to them about their procedures for dealing with this sort of fire - I would hate to attend the next fire and find someone had got badly hurt.

Ian

Here it is Ian:



Click here for larger image

What is that plastic thing to the left in this last pic? And I also see the nose of a toy car/truck on the left..did this happen in a children's room? Frightening!!

edited for typo

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 03-05-2006).]

Looks like a CD rack.

That looks like the cover off of an Infra-Red Heater.
Ian,
I'd like to make something a bit clearer about de-energising a house or any other installation that may be part of a fire.
As a Faultsman and Fire Officer, the need to make the installation safe, needs to be wieghed up with the risk to people that could be still trapped within the building.
We don't needlessly cut the power to a building unless there is a real risk of electrocution of our staff (FF's).
Also, I will add, that water as it is, is slowly going "out of fashion" as far as Fire extinction is concerned.
Water causes a LOT of secondary damage not associated with the original fire and it is looked upon in this day and age as un-profressional to spray large amounts of water at smoke only.
Compressed Air Foam is the tool of the modern Fire Brigade.
Put in the right places,it gives a 600% better result than water (when backed up with a Positive Pressure Fan) and less property damage.
Fire-fighting is a lot smarter than it used to be.
The Jet nozzle is proof of that.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 03-06-2006).]

My understanding is that water stream from a fire truck nozzle are an interupted flow so that there is not an electrical conduction path back to the firefighter or truck. If you look at the water stream arcing off a nozzle from a fire truck you generally see the water pulsing as the flow is interupted briefly. I have no idea whether this is a feature in a hand held hose such as is dragged into a building.

There's a show on Discovery or one of it's sister newtorks called "Mythbusters". In one show they wanted to see if the myth of a drunk (or lout as you Brits call them)peeing on a subway 3rd rail while standing in a water puddle no less would cause electrocution.

Conclusion is it can't because the "stream" is made up of disconnected drops. I guess the same could hold true for a fire hose.




[This message has been edited by Gus99 (edited 04-19-2006).]

That's a good show. In one prog. they busted a story that claimed some guy generated a massive static electrical spark, [ & subsequent fire ], while shotblasting old paint off a big pvc pipe. They tried everything and failed to detect one volt, & wound up building a Wimshurst machine and zapping a presenter, who just got a painful nip off the foot-long static spark.
Best of series for me was busting the story about a tradesman who supposedly got swept off a skyscraper's steel-frame by a gust of wind, while holding a sheet of plywood, then soared on his 3/4" thick wooden "hang-glider wing" round the building and back in through another opening! Tests with dummys showed he would have flown ok - vertically into the deck like a brick!
Geronimoooooooooooooooooooooooooohbugger!

Alan

Ya that is one of my favourite shows! Anyone ever see the one where they wanted to see if it was dangerous to be in the shower or on the telephone during an electrical storm? Where they actually build a miniture section of house and hit it with something like 700,000 volts??!!
Pretty impressive I must say!

A.D

I heard similar stories too... only it wasn't a 700 or something Volts DC rail, but he was standing on a bridge and it was a 15kV AC overhead line...

Burn(t) it's way down? That makes no sense to me. Since heat rises, the natural path for the fire to go would be UP, right? Is it possible that the fire really originated in the breakers and travelled up? The condition of the breakers would seem to say yes.

Don, (resqcapt19) any comments/opinions here?

edited to add question to Don

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 04-21-2006).]

"There's a show on Discovery or one of it's sister newtorks called "Mythbusters". In one show they wanted to see if the myth of a drunk (or lout as you Brits call them)peeing on a subway 3rd rail while standing in a water puddle no less would cause electrocution.
Conclusion is it can't because the "stream" is made up of disconnected drops. I guess the same could hold true for a fire hose."

We had a dog that discovered the hard way that YES You can get shocked by peeing on the wrong thing!

It turns out that when I wired up a temprary timer for controlling Xmas lights 10 years ago, I swapped the line and neutral. (Darn European color codes) Well Trevey went to do a bit of marking on the front bushes and let out a yelp.

He was OK but very confused. I immediately realized what happened and unplugged the timer. Trevey is now chasing squirrels in doggy heaven, but I will never forget that Blue is the Neutral from now on.

On the same subjet here is a house fire in the UK started by an electrical fault.

And the struggle the guy has had with his insurance company
http://www.directline2disaster.co.uk/

Had fraught dealings with the company named on that link 6 years ago with 2 motor insurance policies.
They didn't read my letters, they didn't action stuff in good time, and they made nasty threats about taking legal action when they were clearly in the wrong.

Just thought I'd take the opportunity to give them some publicity in repayment for all the angst they put me through: What goes round comes round.

Alan