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Posted By: electure Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/09/05 02:06 AM
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My name is Roland Regneri and I work as an electrician in a handicraft enterprise in Germany.

I would like to have contact with some colleagues in America to get to know your electrical system and to introduce our system in Germany. It is a private interest not on business.

Perhaps someone of you also have interest in information exchange about the different systems.

I'm looking forward to your answer.

Roland Regneri


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edited to fix my mistake [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 11-08-2005).]
Posted By: Roger Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/09/05 02:50 AM
Roland, welcome to the forum.

Very nice work.

Please stay and participate, your interest in having a dialog with us Americans as well as many other Countries electrical tradespeople will be fulfilled. [Linked Image]

Roger
Posted By: Nick Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/09/05 03:12 AM
I have installed a few pieces of German equipment over the years. Most recently a Jenbacher natural gas co/gen. The workmanship has always been first class. Nice pictures.
Posted By: IanR Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/09/05 12:24 PM
Welcome Roland
That is beautiful work.
You will find much information on how different sytems are wired here, not just American. Hang around and ask any questions that you may have. You will recieve many replies. You will find that this is a very profesional group, there are many good people here.
Posted By: Mike Wescoatt Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/09/05 02:26 PM
Beautiful work. It looks like a picture out of a Wago catalog.
From the pictures I've seen of work in Germany it looks like you basically custom build the circuit breaker boxes for the application with an array of modular parts. Is this the case? How about in England or elsewhere?
In the US we have a box with busbars installed and we can clip on only a few types of circuit protection and code limits us to 42 per "can".
Posted By: mhulbert Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/09/05 10:41 PM
Would there be anything code or listing wise wrong with using European type equipment(such as that in these pictures) in the US for our panelboards?

I know it wouldn't be cheap, but is there any reason you _have_ to use a typical split bus panel?
Posted By: IanR Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/10/05 12:52 PM
You might run into an NEC issue, but honestly I don't know. Probably the cost issue is why you don't see it here.

>edited cuz i cant type<

[This message has been edited by IanR (edited 11-10-2005).]

[This message has been edited by IanR (edited 11-10-2005).]
Posted By: C-H Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/10/05 01:36 PM
I received an e-mail from Roland which I've translated. I put my comments in [brackets].
/C-H

"This is an installation at my aunt, built to the latest technical standard. It is possible to switch the lights and the rolling shutters centrally. A panic function is available and also a presence simulator [1] and several additional amenities. Much of it is done with control modules from Theben.

Picture no. 2 shows a radio that fits into the style of the light switches in the kitchen. (The plastic film was there just as protection from dust and paint)The yellow covers are missing from the top and bottom switches.

These pictures should show the Americans what a neat, state of art, electrical installation in Germany and Europe looks like."

1. Timers that switch on an off lights randomly to give the impression that someone is home.
Posted By: mxslick Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/10/05 07:45 PM
Absoulutely beautiful work!!

My screening room at UC Irvine uses Kinoton Projectors, built in Germany and the internals are also well layed out and neat. They operate on 240v single phase.

The rails in the picture holding the devices are known here as "DIN" rails. Some electrical wholesale houses can order it for you, and most IEC controls and devices attach directly to the rail. It saves a lot of mounting time in complex control projects such as in this thread.
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/10/05 07:50 PM
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Picture no. 2 shows a radio that fits into the style of the light switches in the kitchen.

Interesting!! I've never seen anything like that before.

Who makes these radios, if they're still available, that is. The cosmetic design of your unit seems a little reminiscent of the 1970s...that's why I'm curious.

Is it LW/MW/FM(UKW) or just FM only?

Seems like a good idea to have in the kitchen - space saving and all. [Linked Image]

Your installation is gorgeous, btw.
Posted By: Alan Belson Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/10/05 08:13 PM
Stunning work, Roland, and welcome to ECN. What is the red wire (?), running inside the insulation and parallel to the copper pipe in pic. 3 - by the motorised valve?


Alan
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/10/05 08:25 PM
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Most recently a Jenbacher natural gas co/gen. The workmanship has always been first class.
Actually Jenbacher is Austrian, not German. They make everything up to railway motorcars.

That's an EIB install! It's a bus system. Basically all switches are push buttons paralleled on a low voltage bus, cooresponding with the "actors" in the panel by logic addresses. The entire thing is programmed into the computer first and during startup the laptop "tells" every piece of equipment what it's supposed to do... both flash the software and assign each piece of equipment it's specific address.
Helluva complex, especially when you're new at this, but supposedly very modular and easy to alter.
I'm not really sure I like that bus concept at all. For residential work IMHO it's _waaaaayy_ over the top! Neat looking though!

DIN rail panels basically only offer standardised mechanical mounting, everything else is modular. There are breakers, switches, contactors, dimmers, receptacles, RCDs, bell transformers and whatever else. The line side wiring can either be done with bus bars (both available in single and three phase versions, can easily be cut to length and unused terminals can be removed, for example using Neutral switching breakers you remove the tab of the phase bus at the neutral terminal).
The only downside is the usually limited wiring space. DIN rail panels usually sqeeze a lot more devices in the same size panel than US panels.
Posted By: gideonr Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/10/05 11:11 PM
Alan

Could be heating tape?
Posted By: Roland Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/12/05 05:54 PM
Hi all,

Thanks for replies. I can no English so some expressions could be curios.

I have a question for you. How is built the power supply system in the USA? In Germany it is with 3 phases and neutral. It works with 3*400/230 V AC / 50 Hz, 3 phase current. It is TN system.

SvenNYC:
The radio only is for FM. You can find more info at www.gira.de.

Allan Belson:
The red wires are for interswitchbord line.

Texas Ranger:
It is not a EIB system, these are modules of Theben (Theben Luxor System- www.theben.de).
Do you mean Jenbach in Austria near "Achensee"?


Bye, bye
Roland
Posted By: classicsat Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/13/05 02:28 AM
North America uses 120/240V single phase in most residential services (in a 120-0-120 setup), I think what you call TNC-S. The neutral is earthed at the utility transformer, and also at the point of service disconnect in or near the home. You can see many pictures of services here, both good and bad.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/13/05 06:41 AM
Hi there Roland,
Welcome to ECN!. [Linked Image]
This work is very neat indeed.
Nice to see proper labelling on each of the sub-circuit wires.
I've used quite a bit of Hager stuff down here in New Zealand.
I have to say that I like the DIN Rail equipment a lot, it's easy to replace breakers, even with the panel live if you have to.
And in relative safety too. [Linked Image]
Posted By: IanR Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/13/05 01:26 PM
In addition to classicsat's info; in commercial, industrial and even some large apartment complexes we use 120/208 3phase wye. Industrial settings, with lots of lighting and large motors, will also have 277/480 volt 3phase. In our aparment complexes, seldom are all 3 pheses brought out to individual aparments. It is usually 2 of the 3 phases set up for 120V phase to neutral and 208V phase to phase.
Posted By: pauluk Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/13/05 03:52 PM
Hello Roland, and welcome to ECN. That's some nice neat work! [Linked Image]


Just to expand upon classicsat's comment, the U.S. system most common for the average individual house is a 3-wire 1-phase system. The transformer has a 240V winding with a center tap which is grounded and brought to the house as a neutral.

There are then two line busbars in the distribution panel. Circuits for lights and regular wall outlets are then wired between one line and neutral to give 120V, the load being distributed evenly between the two sides.

Large appliances such as dryers, stoves, heating, and air-conditioners run on 240V and are connected via 2-pole breakers to both live sides of the supply.

Grounding (earthing) is indeed what would be classed as TN-C-S in Europe. TT systems are not used in the U.S., and in fact are prohibited under the American NEC (National Electrical Code).

There are a good many significant differences between grounding and bonding arrangements in North America and Europe.
Posted By: Texas_Ranger Re: Some Nice Work from Germany - 11/13/05 05:10 PM
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It is not a EIB system, these are modules of Theben (Theben Luxor System
Oh, didn't notice that. Looking closely the modules do look different.


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Do you mean Jenbach in Austria near "Achensee"?
Yes, that should be right. Tirol.

[This message has been edited by Texas_Ranger (edited 11-14-2005).]
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