Renosteinke




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Yes I would.

Article 100

Iwire, explain that one. We see a hot tub with a roof over it.

Do you consider a fish pond a structure. After all it is "constructed" and "built".

I would think a structure would be something that would keep out the elements of nature.
This wouldn't be.


Dnk.....


Dnk...

dnk IMO as far as the NEC is concerned that is a structure. The definition is what it is, no mention of keeping the elements out.

When the NEC states building I think of something that keeps the weather out.

When the NEC states structure I think of anything except a building.

To the NEC a sign or light post is a structure. If you doubt that take a look at 225.32 Exceptions 3 and 4.


Poles for signs and lights are structures and without those exceptions would require a readily accessible disconnecting means at the poles themselves.

Bob




[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 10-26-2005).]

For that you will have to ask the NEC, I did not write the short and sweet NEC definition of structure.

Bob

If you call it a structure, are you going to install 225.31 disconnect on it?


BTW: I hate to say it, but I agree with Bob...it meets the definition of a structure.

Wouldn't there be one already for the tub?

I was wondering if this structure has one feeder or multiple branch circuits?

How about 225.39(D)?

Reno is probably sorry he asked now.

Gardener??!! What the Dickens you planting there- Jacks's Magic-Beanstalk beans?

Very nice erm...(thinks)..artifact! though, beautifull design.

Pardon a silly old bugger who's never had a bath in his garden in full view of the neighbours, but how do you get in that tub? I wouldn't fancy clambering over the side of that- it looks quite deep.

Alan

Yuop, I get the Landscrapers to do my trenching too!

NEC its a structure... That is if it has wiring in/on it. The tub, I consider seperate....

A leiniant AHJ would give you an OK on it, maybe. But if theres other electrical like say lights and outlets in it, its not only a structure but a range of other violations too. (Noticing the bar area on it.... It just screams "rope light".)

Personally, I would have done a UFA in the pad and bonded it to the tub, but thats me....

First of all- I posted these to get a discussion going....looks like it worked!

The gardener is not planting anything....he's cursing me for wanting a real 24" deep trench for my pipe!

The front of the tub- which has the panels that remove to give access to the pumps and such- is usually blocked by a redwood stair (not present in pic) that makes entry quite easy.

The tub has, accessible to the occupant, pneumatic push button controls. While they will operate the tub, I don't think they qualify as a "disconnect."
BTW, this is one of the rare UL listed tubs out there.


Another code authority (from hurricane country) has asserted that a ground rod at a light pole make no sense- but, if a pole is a structure, it would seem to be required.

Some folks use SE or NMC for their tubs. I believe that the down-sized ground wire is NOT allowed for a tub. Comments?

I have it, on good authority, that this tub has a rated capacity of 1 owner and 3 blondes.


[This message has been edited by renosteinke (edited 10-27-2005).]

Are we talking code or what makes sense.

A light pole is a structure.

It would require a grounding electrode if it was supplied with a feeder or more than one branch circuit.

Then all hot tubs are structures then?

Or just because this has a roof, that makes it a structure?

It is a real vague definition, don't you think?

Dnk...

It's a structure because it was built or constructed, it has nothing to do with a roof.

Put the hot tub in the middle of the yard all by itself and it is still a structure.

In other words if it did not grow from a seed or is otherwise natural it is a structure.

Good topic...

Now that we've decided (maybe) what a structure is, I just have to ask: What, exactly, does "separate" mean?

Example: You build a brick barbecue one foot from away the house. Is it a structure? Is it "separate"? If you mount a weatherproof receptacle on it for your rotisserie, does NEC require a disconnect?

Another example: If the gazebo is attached to the house with an overhead shade lattice, is the gazebo still a separate structure, or is it part of the house? Why?

Taken-to-Absurdity example: How about a single 2x4 stretching from the house to the gazebo for "shade"? Are they still separate structures?

Somehow, I don't think Article 100 is going to help here.

If it JUST the hot tub circuit, its OK. Anything else...

Mr Crighton,
Now before I get jumped on here, I'm on the outside looking in as far as the NEC goes (being in NZ), but my understanding is that if a structure is not part of the original house foundations, it is "seperate".
My understanding of it would make a seperate structure, it is not part of the house structure, but it has been built in addition to the house on that land.

Trumpy,

Hmm, NEC makes no distinction about a structure having a "foundation," but maybe that would be part of the criteria.

I suspect that the AHJ would refer to definitions of "structure" and "separate" in codes other than NEC to make the judgment, then enforce the applicable NEC sections.

By the way, it's just John -- "Mr. Crighton" was my father!

John,
They can't as far as "structure" goes. That term is defined in Article 100 and that is the only definition that can be used for NEC issues.
Don

In the general discussion area under "ground rod for hot tub" on 2-13 2004, it was said that a ground rod was permitted but not required, so does that mean it is not a structure, but becomes a structure when something is built around it?

E57....you did it again! You found yet another "fuzzy" area of hot tub installs. Did I run a branch circuit- or a feeder?

Well, I ran a single 240 circuit to the tub, and simply terminated my four wires as directed (yes, there was a neutral required).
As part of the tub assembly, after my connections the wires entered the tub's control center, where power was sent off in differing directions to the heater, tub pump, aerator pump, stereo, TV, and lights. Each of these functions had it's own little breaker, switch..and often a molex-type wire harness leaving the center. Is this a "panel", with its' own branch circuits?

As mentioned before, the instructions of this UL listed tub simply said to run the four wires to the tub, from a GFI breaker.

Wouldn't the spa also meet the definition of "appliance"?

Randy

Randy, I agree with you.
The "Hot Tub/Spa" is an "appliance" or mabey a "fixture", definately not a structure.
The Gazebo is a "structure" but it is not a "perminant structure" and will once again fall under the term Fixture.

Rob

I think "equipment". But Reno mentioned in the chat area that this thing had a load center in it. Which complicates things....


So if the final over-current device is inside the unit, doesn't that make it a "feeder"?


Which would make it exempt from the exception to 250.32(A)? And then either require a GEC and local electrode, or full size EGC depending on other metalic paths?

Lets get real fuzzy...if E57 is correct and this tub is fed with a "feeder" because the last overcurrent device at the tub (which I disagree with, I think it would be a non-fused disconnect and not an overcurrent device), then all "equipment" that is fed downstream from a "fused disconnect" (or overcurrent device)such as heat pumps or air conditioning compressors which sit outside of the building would be fed from "feeders" and require a GEC? This is getting real fuzzy!

E57 is talking about the fact that there is a load center (circuit breakers) built-in to the hot tub control panel, not the disconnect switch that supplies the tub.

My feeling is, that the unit, being listed as an assembly, probably qualifies as an appliance or fixture.. The next question is, how does the UL tag identify it?

Also, does the load center supply additional equipment that is not either part of the tub assembly, or connected to a convienience outlet located on the tub assembly?

It's a hot tub, that's all it is.

The question was I think, would you put a ground rod by it?

Who has put a ground rod by a hot tub?

And what purpose would it serve, none.


Dnk....




[This message has been edited by Dnkldorf (edited 10-29-2005).]

I belive the first question was about the Gazebo. The hot tub is a seprate "Thingy" from the "Cover Thingy".
Thingy's sre not coverd in the NEC so forget about it!

If a circuit breaker causes a branch circuit to become a feeder, does the power strip under my desk now have a "feeder" instead of a power cord?

I think I need a Gnd rod at my UPS too. It has multiple ckt breakers.

Randy, the definitions only apply to premisis wiring, the plug strip under your desk (Or sierra's plug in UPS) doesn't count....

Back to this... 680.2 definitions "Packaged Spa or Hot Tub Equipment Assembly" or "Self-Contained Spa or Hot Tub" Just about every item in this area reffers to "Equipment".

I don't see anything in 680 that would exempt the FEED for it from being called a "feeder" just because the panel for all the branch circuits inside is part of a "listed assembely". (Or, I guess the tub is NOT part of premisis wiring?)

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 10-29-2005).]

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 10-29-2005).]

This thread makes me glad my job consists only of getting 20 cinema projectors ready to run in a cinema where the opening date was bumped up a full month... (even though the building isn't ready yet!)

Call it an appliance.

Call it a hot tub.

Call it a fiberglass bucket to frolic in.

It is still IMO a structure when applying the NEC.

A vehicle is still a vehicle regardless if it is Ford Focus or a Mack truck.

If we determine that there is a feeder running to this hot tub the NEC requires a ground rod.

Sorry I have been busy with other things but I do want to get back to John C's points in this thread.

Bob


[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 10-31-2005).]

I am going to ignore the issue of what is actually required or permitted by code, and make the point that a grounding electrode is IMHO a good idea for safety.

Regardless of any grounding electrode, the feeder/branch circuit going to this appliance/structure will include at least one grounded conductor electrically connected to a grounding electrode.

The hot tub almost certainly will include fittings exposed to the water, quite probably in contact with the water, and bonded to the electrical system ground.

The soil or concrete around this hot tub will almost certainly be wet when the tub is being used.

You have now set up a situation where the tub of water is at the ground potential of the house, by virtue of the equipment grounding conductor, the house grounding electrodes, and the bonding at the tub, while the soil or concrete around the tub is at the local ground potential, with both items wet, and people with very little clothing likely to be in contact with both. IMHO this is a perfect setup for electric shock caused by any sort of earth current (nearby lightning strike, stray voltage caused by improper neutral connection on a neighbor's property, POCO 'single wire earth return' wiring, etc.)

If this were my own property, I would want the UFER or a ground ring, regardless of what the code requires.

Note that this sort of bonding is required for an in-ground pool, including an 'equipotential plane' surrounding the pool.

-Jon

Jon, I am totaly behind you on a equipotential plane being needed for this type installation, and that is what I would do. But I would never install a ground rod here and think that it is now safe, or performance was enhanced because of it.


Dnk...

"If this were my own property, I would want the UFER or a ground ring, regardless of what the code requires."

Me too... Concrete pad, and /or footings bonded to the motor control box in the very least.

Been on too many service calls where people get shocked by touching the water, and standing on the ground barefoot.

GFI's and pump motors fail, heaters burn up over time, landscrapers pick ax the feed. Who knows what else... But at some point something will go wrong, and someone will be standing there half, or fully naked for what ever it is....

Winnie, lest you be concerned...There is a grounding electrode conductor- a ground wire- run to this tub. I am asking about an additional grounding electrode-ground rod into the earth- as well.
The best explanation I have seen about the purpose of ground rods related to lightning protection. This is a completely separate from clearing faults.

The "pick ax" issue was why I used pipe, and buried it DEEP. 24" to top of pipe. I know you might argue that code would allow for less depth, but I am a believer in Murpy's Law.

I guess what I saw inside the tub could be called a "load center." There were separate switches, breakers (or fuses) and connectors for each part of the assembly. It was all part of the control board, though....and not a "load center" as you might get from Square D.

Reno,

The point that I was making was that the EGC could actually be a _source_ of a shock if the _local_ ground potential at the hot tub is different from the _local_ ground potential where the building electrical system grounding electrode is located. I don't see further grounding the electrical system as offering any sort of performance benefit; instead I see this as 'bonding' the earth at the hot tub to the same grounding electrode system as the water in the hot tub.

I was thinking in particular of this thread https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003127.html where the customer was being shocked between a bonded water spigot and the wet ground nearby. The voltage to ground at the spigots was present even when the main to the house was off. The problem was POCO neutral current going through the earth.

-Jon

I have a hot tub in my basement, is it a structure?? what about seperate??

Was it built or constructed or did it grow from a hot tub seed?

NEC Article 100.


That is the entire definition, I have a hard time believing a hot tub is not a structure per this NEC definition.

Remember the NEC also defines 'Building' and while a building is always a structure a structure is not always a building.




The NEC does not define separate so we must use the common definition. By the common definition your hot tub is not separate from the main structure (your house) as it is inside it.

Here in MA they have modified the definition of structure and it makes it clear a structure is not only shelter.

MA Amendments

Walrus, If I remember correctly you wire service stations?

Many times the pump islands would have to be considered separate structures as the roof above them is not connected to the the main building.

Then of course the pumps at the tanks would be in another structure.

It gets depressing if you think on this to much.

Bob

So what you're saying is my hot tub is structure within a structure??. I see it as an appliance in my basement, similar to a washer or dryer. By the definition in NEC though it appears you are correct.I would call it confusing but really its written right out in plain english