I went on a service call not long ago to a place I had been before.

My previous trip I had seen a very neat and professional electric room.

Now when I went back I see this store is undergoing a remodel / addition.

I get up to the electric room and could not believe my eyes.

Sorry this is picture heavy but you gotta see it. I will split it up.

This is exactly what I saw when I walked in.

Please note the temporary panel in the middle of the room. It is hung on the back of a lightweight metal storage cabinet. The cabinet is not secured to the structure, the only thing holding it is the weight of junk inside it.



Here is a better view of the temp panel.



Now I turn around to see the area I have to work. I need to work on the open blue cabinet right above the pile of *^#@.




Look around some more and see the modifications to the 480 volt switch gear.



At least suitable warnings where placed on the protective cardboard arc shields.

Now for an idea of what the permanent wiring looks like. This is the warehouse area and this is the finished product.

This picture shows a nice NM job about 15' off the ground.



This next one they must have decided to use cable trays and bundling to keep things neat.

Funny I did not see the panels full of 5 amp breakers that these cables need once derating is preformed.

There was about 100' of cable try that looked like this.



I hope I will not get anymore service calls here. The installing company should be handling this mess for at least the next year.

Bob

Wow!!!

Scott I was really upset when I saw this.

I took a lot more pictures but I really need to get a wide angle lens. The pictures do not convey the scale of the this job. Everywhere I looked was poor workman ship.

I forgot to get pictures of the out of service Fire Alarm pull stations. The store has never closed the FA should be active!

It seems like they may need it!

This is in a very small CT town I doubt highly they have an inspector, or if they have one he is blind.

To rant on.

I did not open a single door, panel J-box etc. What you see is how it stays.

Even the electric room doors where propped open so any store employee could walk in here.

The 480 volt switch gear had been all fused disconnect type gear, a standard for this customer. I have no Idea why the EC has modified it to breakers.

Looks like they should have ordered trim plates along with the bus bars.

You know I did not look behind the cardboard I hope the proper bus bars where bought and installed.

From the looks of this work they might have just hacked these breakers in place.

Thought I had seen garbage before!!!!

Bob, are you going to let the customer know about this substandard work? If you can convince them there are some serious hazards maybe they would be willing to hire a third party inspector to inspect this work. Joe would probably love to inspect this job. This EC should either be forced to make the necessary repairs (tear everything out and start over) or pay the cost to have another EC do it.

The customer has their own full time construction supervisors (often promoted from the maintenance dept) I am sure they see the work. Why are they ignoring it, I would have to guess they like the price.

I wish I knew where this was located, Bob?

HLOY F*&%^*(&%&(***o&^)*(&^)*(&^*(&%^*(&%^*&^*(&)&^*()&^*()&^*&^^&*%^**&*, I like the part about "480V You will Die!" They may have put the warning up after being bit a few times?????

Now, dare I say it, that I used to work with these guys, but it's not World Cup time, nor is it acceptable to drink that much on the job! But, I'm sure glad they "travelled" out of town. And, not "tinckering" 'round here no more.

Those 480v. sections look kinda like something from a horror movie where a creature's middle has been disemboweled!

Bob: I almost hate to ask this; how does the back-of-the-storage-cabinet QO panel receive its power?

Mike (mamills)

BTW: I like that second pic. With the red "flags" showing, it looks like a number of the circuits have tripped.

Here is the feed to the temp panel.

Bob
I can understand your frustration. It also makes it hard to work there, because you should be afraid to touch anything around you.
Nice job of grounding that transformer - the grounding electrode conductor is run through the fitting for the transformer feed, with no connection to the enclosure.

I especially like the panel secured to the cabinet and the cables feeding the transformer.

I also like their method of lockout/tagout -tape always is cheaper than the proper method, whether it works or not
Bundling (or is that bungling)of cables, protection of cables, etc...

How long did it take you to simmer down before being able to start deciphering this mess?

Pierre

On a second look, what is that cabinet doing there anyway? It looks as though it may be between two parts of gear - working clearance?

Pierre

I'm pretty much speechless and to think a buddy and I were tapping some light fixture bases to allow us to use Ac cable and he was worried about tapping the holes straight That is some of the ugliest work ever done. I take it no corporate safety people have been there??. Is this place open for business?

Pierre

Not much really makes me mad but I was here and for the reason you stated.

This electric room was built in a factory and shipped to the job. When done this way they are great to work on, there are laminated wiring diagrams on the walls, everything is clearly marked. Now nothing is marked right and the wiring diagrams are useless.

For more info on pre-built electric rooms go to this link.

http://www.hillphoenix.com/electrical/edc/index.html

Select "Build" in the upper right corner and you can see exactly how this room had been.

Yes the metal cabinet should go, it had always been there and you could push it out of the way before it got wired into place.

Bob,
I've never seen such a mess in my life!.
From start to finish, it's just a one big shambles.
At least the original Panel equipment looks like it was installed with a certain amount of pride.
BTW, Iwire, is it legal to run Romex across a floor that may be used as an escape route?.
Or even run like that in the first place?.
GRRRR!

The only thing that I don't care for is the cardboard on the 480 swichgear.

If the OSHA inspector ever sees this (and he should) he would have writers cramp for a week.

Well this certainly makes me wonder.


1)Live NM on the floor

2)Support Requirements for NM

3)Derating Requirements.

Just to name a few.

Mike


No NM is not to be used in this manner and I am sure that it should not be in the egress.

We do use NM for temps, but it is kept out of harms way. Never run across a floor.

Bob: Thank you so much for posting this thread about the electric room (as hidious as its present state indicates). About a year ago, our local fire department took a "pre-fire-plan" tour of a new Wal Mart store that was opening here. Having the interest that I have in things electrical, as well as total ignorance of many facets of this business, I was surprised to see this large metal clad enclosure in the rear of the building. For all I knew, it appeared to be a large freezer of some sort, except for the fact that the doors were marked with "Danger High Voltage" signage and the area above the enclosure was filled with dozens and dozens of raceways of every imaginable size.

Of course, this particular element was left off the tour , so I particularly appreciate the link you posted.

Mike (mamills)

Mike I have been seeing these pre built electric rooms more often. Wal-mart, Target, Edwards Foods, etc.

In the case of the one in my photos it is one of three prebuilt interconnected units that contain all the mechanical systems, HVAC, product refrigeration, emergency generator, energy management systems etc.

They work great for these types of stores where each store is like another.

The ones we install for Target have the store PA system, Fire Alarm system, Energy management system and of course power distribution already installed.

The good side, it is quick to get up and running. just connect up all the field wiring and turn it on.

The bad part for the EC is the store provides this so you do not get to mark it up.

Bob

Mike-
Try to convince your company officer/inspector to include the power room in any future tours, if only for "familiarization" purposes.

We make it a point to require labeling on the outside of the doors of the rooms containing the Main electrical D/C, main gas valve (if inside), the fire pump (if equipped), sprinkler system shut-off and drain, and the main fire alarm panel.

In addition, we require the occupant to provide zone maps for their alarm system to be posted by the annunciator, and have the above indicated on the map.

Just my $0.02

Doug

Doug what you describe is very common here too.

The actual Fire Alarm Control Panel would be in the electric room but a full function remote annunciator / control panel will be at an entry door of the FDs choice, along with the zone maps.

Do you folks use Knox Boxes for entry into buildings. This is pretty much standard around here now.

I don't get it. I would have been a lot cheaper and easier to use EMT, and THHN. Why would someone use Romex everywhere?

If I were an Inspector. This would be the day I write a Book. That's how many violations I would find

In the second picture, am I seeing every single breaker having the Visi-Trip flag showing?

[This message has been edited by sparked (edited 09-07-2004).]

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Dave

Bob,

What is a Knox Box?

Peter

After looking again at the pic,s I don't see no live wire's on the floor.
The romax is ok for temp and does not need to be staped as often in the ceiling

Why don't you tell this guy that there is pic's on the net of his job?
It is not fair that the job is not done and you are cutting this guy up with know Idea of what is going on.
How can you or anybody say anything with out being there on the job working on this project with the guy doing it

Maybe he can take some pic's of your jobs
before it is all done.
It would be nice to see some pic's of your job's that you did not pick out.
Keep running everybody else down your doing a good job

A Knox Box is either a Key box, or keyed switch, so the Fire Department doesn't drive the truck through the door/gate/wall to gain entry. And, the FD had better see it, so make it really visable to them, or they give it like 10 seconds before starting up saws and the like. I used to be an EMT, and noticed that most FD guys would rather cut through a door, than unlock it. (Just for kicks.)

So, anyway iwire, speaking of medical attention, has anyone gotten hurt there, yet? Or, the wise just stay clear?

Big Guy

If you look around this site you will find pictures of my work.

Yes I have run jobs that I would not want to show pictures of here, not every job is pretty.


Picture 1 the bundle of yellow stuff coming out of the panel, running across the floor is wire and it is live.

NM cable even when used for temps is not hard usage cord.



Yes, I use it for temps all the time.


Can you show me a code that says that?

The NM in the trusses is not temp it is permanent, it is required to be supported every 4.5'.



I have no idea who he or she is.


I am willing to go out on a limb and assume that this job is not going to suddenly clean up. I do have a pretty good idea of what is going on and the diffacult job they have here. They are trying to do a major remodel without disrupting the store.

I have run jobs like that and it is very hard, so what, you still have to follow the rules.


There is absolutely no excuse for using cardboard to cover 480 busbars. This is dangerous, irresponsible and would be a major issue if OSHA shows up.


People take pictures of my jobs often, GCs engineers, owners representatives. And while they may not always be perfect you will never see my jobs looking like this one.


I am sorry you feel that way, I must assume you have not read many of my posts.

Bob

Bob: I guess the thing that scares me the most is those 480v. sections, left for all intents and purposes, completely unprotected (and appearing to be pretty permanent). Several questions:
1. What kind of main lug amperage could be encountered in these panels,
2. Is there a main disconnect of some sort located in this electric room (or somewhere nearby), and
3. Referring to the first picture, what is going on in the very large panel across the aisle from the SqD add-on panel? It looks like it's "taped up" also.

Mike (mamills)

iwire
All I was saying is that with not being there and knowing what is going on The only thing I see wrong is the cardboard on the switchgear.

1926.405(a)(ii)(B) say's that you can fasten temp wire at not more then 10 ft intervals
It also say that NO BRANCH CIRCUIT CONDUCTORS SHALL NOT BE LAID ON THE FLOOR

info came from the OSHA standards for the construction industry

Big guy,


Huh? What are you talking about?

NM cable cannot be run where subject to physical damage. Are you going to tell us that running romex on the floor is not subject to physical damage? Temporary or not, it is wrong.


So you don't consider a long bundle of cables to be a problem?

Peter

If you have a bundle more than 24 " you have to derate
and yes I know you can't run NM cable on the floor
but we are talking temp wire here
The NEC has Art 527 but you have to go buy OSHA also for temp power.
The temp panel was wire coming out of it on the floor.
these wire's are called a branch circuit.
OSHA say's that branch circuit's can not be laying on the floor.
If you don't have a OSHA book you need to get one.

I recently saw an installation for a small machine using an 18 ga. cord on a 20-amp three-phase breaker. The electrician put some blue painters tape next to the breaker to label it "temporary".

Please note 527.2(A)Other Articles.
Except as specifically modified in this article, all other requirements of this Code for permanent wiring shall apply to temporary wiring installations.

Dave

What the !!!!!! Geeze,! This is a catastrophe just waiting to happen. Who originally wired this place? I'm lost for words...

I forgot to mention after looking again at the pics.yes, you are right, it DOES look like those breakers are tripped. Hmmmm, imagine that. "I cant figure out why my breakers keep tripping!"

" no branch circuit conductors shall not be laid on the floor" . this is a double negative. are you saying that all Branch circuits are to be laid on the floor?

Seeing only the cardboard as a problem is a little 'shortsighted'.
How about the panel mounted on a cabinet. How about the conductors not supported to the enclosured. How about the bundling. How about taped breakers, how about the transformer installed on a combustible surface (construction paper), how about the support of conductors supplying the transformer, how about working clearance, how about the panel labeling not being complete, how about the water bottle sitting on top of the cabinet above the panel and transformer, how about the screws missing on the panel cover, how about the open trough covers, how about the use of cardboard to protect the NM cable entering the panel enclosure.

As I am not there, I would be suspect from what I can see about the: grounding of the transformer, and the panel it self. The wiring in the ceiling shows the lack of concern for one of the most important aspects of our industry - PRIDE!!!

Pierre

Mike sorry I took a while to get back to these questions.



I do not know how to perform arc fault calculations but what I do know of them it would be high. This store has it's own 13 KV to 480 V pad mount transformer located outside as close to the main disconnect in this electric room as possible. It is not more than 50' of conductor from that transformer to the lugs of the main. From what I understand this will provide one heck of a flash.

The Main disconnect is located in this electric room in picture one you can see the main gear on the extreme right side of the picture.

Typically for these stores it is 1,200 to 1,600 amps @ 480, I did not check the rating of the service in this particular store. The one good point is it has GFP protection.


I could not get a good picture of that section but it looks the same as the gear in pictures 4 and 5. It is fusible disconnect gear being partly modified to breakers.

I agree with Pierre this is a total lack of pride in the work.

I also maintain that there are some truly dangerous issues in here.

Not to say we are perfect either, one of our service guys went on a service call to a building that the construction guys are remodeling. The service guy took photos and gave them to our safety officer. The job Foreman and the PM got their rear side chewed off for what showed in the pictures and it was nothing like the mess in my photos.

Bob

In your picture of the panel the breaker schedule shows the contractor name and client name. Unless you want this info added to the discussion, I recommend you blur out the breaker schedule.

As far as non identifing information, the BBB gives the contractor a satsifactory ranking. This looks like a very small company (3 employees). The state has had some paperwork issues and their bussiness license seems to be in arrears.

Its kind of scary what is available about anyone on the internet.

SD

Strangedog the panel was a used one I doubt very much that the info on the panel is the installing contractor. The panel schedule did not match the job.

And yes you can find a lot out on the net.