More sheet rocker woes . . . - ECN Electrical Forums

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This isn't something you see every day (thank God). While remodeling our nursery room and banging popped nails deeper into the wall, I noticed the ceiling light was flickering every time I hit the wall along this one stud only. Stud finder, that also detects electrical presence, shows electricity only near the bottom at approximately "outlet level".

Upon opening the wall I find an outlet box that the rockers have walled over and forgotten about. Nobody found it sooner because every circuit in this 16 year old house worked perfectly. Whoever shoved the wires back in the box managed to end up with both black (hot) wires touching each other and nothing else, and both white (neutral) wires touching the ground conductor, hence completing the flow of electricity from the feed to the out feed, however poorly.

After seeing this, and reading previous posts where EC's were complaining about rockers, I felt I had to pass it on. The wife's comments . . . "Oh, I always wanted an outlet there." Luckily, nothing of any major current draw was ever plugged into any outlets downstream. I was running a 14 amp air compressor in the same room, but it's outlet was on another circuit (again, thank God).

-- Mean Gene

Bad indeed, but if this was a new home built to plans, I wonder why the electrician(s) didn't notice a missing outlet where the plan said there should be one.

Megging the line/neutral to ground on the final test would have caught this too.

Gulp...

That one's a real winner! Maybe it could be part of the What's in the walls thread [Linked Image]

P. S. Here's one I dug up:
[Linked Image from 65.108.216.53]

[This message has been edited by ThinkGood (edited 10-20-2003).]

i'm forever cutting out buried boxes here, usually with some sheetrocker behind me in denial.

usually i locate center, and cut just so the box can come thru the rock, which i then slap a tad to have it do, and pop the expected s.r. screws in a 2' circumfrence [Linked Image]

I was standing a few feet away from a rocker the other day when he torqued one of our boxes way back into the tin-stud wall he was covering.
When I told him that it was no good, he told me he couldn't help it because "The framing's all *&^%ed up."
I told him that I had to agree with him about the framing, and that I had been just a few feet away when he had framed the wall a couple of days earlier. [Linked Image]

He fixed it right then and there [Linked Image]

...S

All I was expecting to find was a cable with a really bad nick in it or a nail or screw in a cable. When I first saw it I thought it was intended to be a junction box with no cover or means of access. It wasn't until I realized the wires were stripped and just shoved back in the box that I knew it was intended to be an outlet.

unbelieveable that no opponent wires touched, but all touched in the correct way [Linked Image]

and there are no heat marks either.

who strips cables this long? do you need the copper this long for making an O ring around the terminal screw?

A few comments here:
If I did new construction (I don't) I think I would leave the wires unstripped before the sheetrockers got here. Why would you strip them, they would just get covered in paint overspray from the painters?

:andy: is right, I see no reason to strip them that long for any reason.

I see this is a Slater box, I like those because of the push-in-the-screw holes. Anyone else use them?

Thinkgood, did you replace that wiring? Or at least put in a junction box that's not filled with plaster? [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by sparked (edited 10-21-2003).]

Regarding the Slater box, do the screws then come out the normal way (turn with a screwdriver)? I hope it's not a one-way thing....that could be problematic when it comes time to replace the device.... [Linked Image]

Also, can two cables go through one knockout like that? I'm thinking one cable should go through each hole so that tab can grip it properly right? Not used to dealing with plastic boxes, that's why I ask the silly question. [Linked Image]

Sven

See here for a description of how to use a Slater box.
http://www.passandseymour.com/pdf/O11.pdf

Regarding the clamps, I wasn't sure about that either. I would use the one to the right.

Those boxes are great provided you don't want the device securely attached.

I agree with Electricmanscott,they are great during trimout but, after that they are a disservice to the customer/user.

Something that we do to avoid the "buried box" problem is to put a paint mark on the floor under each box. We go back to the site after the rock is up & do a quick walk-thru. Any buried, we cut them out.

Now, if I can stop the spacklers from filling the boxes....hmm. And yes, we splice thru all our boxes at rough...and energize all the circuits. If anything gets cut, we can find it, fix it before any finish work is done.

John

I always pig-tailed my hots and nuetrals at the rough stage, which made it very difficult to know if a box was buried. I started getting in the habit of taking the plans with me when I did a walk through before inspection and make sure everything that was supposed to be there was indeed there.

Excellent point :andy:/sparked. I can't think of a reason in the world to strip the wires in advance. It only increases the risk of something goofy like this happening, not to mention the possibility of a fire.

The screw push-in feature of the Slater boxes is a nice feature, but otherwise I think their devices are crap. Every switch and outlet in the house is a Slater and I am replacing them all one room at a time with Leviton's. Many of the outlets have separated from the mounting ears and are just dangling in the boxes after 16 years. My mother's house still has functional Leviton devices from 1916 including a few pushbutton switches for those of you old enough to remember those!

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Many of the outlets have separated from the mounting ears and are just dangling in the boxes after 16 years.

I'm not sure if I'm thinking the same thing, but I had one customer with these boxes where many devices were loose because there was nothing there to screw into. The plastic had broken off as far back as the bare ground in the bottom of this picture. I did devise a way to get the devices secure again, but it took awhile.

I much prefer the Blue Carlon boxes, it seems like the plastic in these boxes breaks too easy.

Bill

sparked:

That K&T was at a neighbor's house, and fortunately, is long gone. The whole house was rewired. I was fascinated by the discovery of the previous rennovations once the walls were opened up.

By the way, Mean Gene, have you checked the rest of the wiring there?

Bill:

The next time I remove one of these Slater outlets that have come apart I will take a close-up picture of it and send it to you or post it here. [Linked Image]

ThinkGood:

I'm re-doing each room in the house, one room at a time, and only about 1/3 of the way through. So far everything is in pretty good order electric wise. I've found a couple of back-stabbed switches (no outlets), several outlets that have come apart (previous owner abuse maybe?!?) and a couple of devices without grounds attached. I've been in the service panel several times and have noticed that several neutral bar screws have two wires under them, but I don't believe that was against code back in 1986. [Linked Image]

Hotline,

Perhaps you should try some of these to stop from getting spackle in your boxes. They look like they would protect the wires from the mad rotozip.
www.rndprducts.com

You know, those "stab the wire into the hole" outlets and switches don't offer much more contact than what those wires had in that hidden box.....

wa2ise,

Yes, I know. Whenever I find them like that I replace them, and since I'm slowly replacing every device in the house, there won't be any when I'm done. [Linked Image]

[This message has been edited by Mean Gene (edited 10-31-2003).]

Found out why I'd never fully re-wired the living room & dining room... until this summer.

Old waxed cotton covered rubber insulated wires still in the 1/2" (black) RMC. Couldn''t wiggle the far end of the line, so I'd left it in place. It's 12 gauge, so WTH. Years go by.

Get married, get "honey-do" list. Right at the top: Please install ceiling fans in dining and living rooms.

Still can't budge the wires. Opened all the 1900's in that part of the house - no dice. Still locked up tight. Hook a tone tracer to it, and find some hot spots.

Bust holes in the wall to find abandoned sconce boxes, stuffed with newspaper (dated December, 1943), and plastered over. (At least they taped the ends and the soldered joints.)

End result? I finally got new wire through the whole house.

The wife finally got her ceiling fans.

Doug, I feel your pain. Mine wanted ceiling fans in every bedroom on the second floor (4 rooms), no existing boxes. My only salvation was I had attic access to all of the ceilings, and I did it in the spring before the attic temps became unbearable. [Linked Image]

They will usually get what they want, one way or another! [Linked Image]

LOL

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Bill:
The next time I remove one of these Slater receptacles that have come apart I will take a close-up picture of it and send it to you or post it here.

The front and rear halves are held together with two small screws. I have only found them with one screw out, never both. Maybe the previous owners abused the heck out of them. The Leviton's are riveted together, and I have never seen one come apart.

Funny thing about that recept there.....
It looks like the GE's they sell in Wal-Mart & the grocery stores... I'm still with you on Slater devices being junk though. P&S bought Slater, I believe, in the 80's & discontinued the line. P&S has come a long ways in quality over the years speaking of which.....

hmm.. Now that you meantion it, Lost, the last house i lived in was wired by an electrician and EVERY SWITCH AND RECPT was the style you get at the grocery store. Even found a few of the peg cards with stickers on them from the local Giant. I agree with you, P&S's quality has definitely gone up.

Those Slater Receptacles really are junk. My aunt's MH was full of them, so was mine. Most of the recepts. in my house have been replaced. My aunt's house was demolished, and when we cleared it out, I snatched up all the switches and receptacles, except the ones that fell apart in my hands, those went to the dumpster.
Their switches, on the other hand, are nice. They are even easy to repair, just open it up, and move a few things around. Not that I will ever do that on switches destined for in-wall boxes.

As for that sheetrocker job, doesn't surprise me, saw it when my other aunts house had a sheet of drywall replaced.

Ian A.

I got a real nice one for yall. adding a laundry room to the front of our house, while removing the vinyl siding, we discovered an uncovered, unused outlet box, all the wires capped with LARGE RED WIRENUTS, only 2 runs of 12/2 in there, the one feeding an outlet on the front porch. This makes me wonder how many more forgotten outlet boxes/unplated j-boxes there ARE in this house.

At least they were CAPPED with something proper, not a few turns of duct tape or paper tape. [Linked Image]

well, that IS true. lol. My uncle built the house, unfortunately the EC he hired at the time was a total boob, long story short, he had to fire him and get someone else better.

Those slater boxes are really prone to cracking. I've replaced about 7 of them in my house with Smartboxes.

By the way. I've gotten very good at getting old boxes out of the wall without damaging the drywall. The trick is to get the nails off the box (after pulling them out of the stud) before you pull the wires out and remove it from the wall. The nails can be removed from the box by pushing on them with a long screwdriver. Let them fall into the wall..who cares..they can keep the empty beer cans company.

[This message has been edited by brianl703 (edited 08-15-2005).]