at least they used some tape to insulate with.

Wowzers Batman

The panel's extra-big workspace is nice too.

So what's the ampacity of 10AWG in free air?
Reminds me of the last time I was in Romania. No body could afford plugs for the cords, just strip the end of the wire, jam the wire in the outlet, and keep it there with a piece of wood whittled down to fit into the hole.
Trainwire

Bob;
It looks like this temp service is fitted with a variety of other receptacles. Could (or can) any of the others be used?

Deadfront not withstanding, the hold-open support for the cover is a nice touch...

Trainwire, looks like you get to visit ALL the elegant sites!

Mike (mamills)

Why did they connect the extension cord that way? It looks like there is an unused weatherproof outlet under that panel!

I almost feel some sympathy for the welder.
The man only wants to hook up his welding machine, and we present him with an infinite variety of plugs; he doesn't know if he's going to use a dryer plug, or a stove plug, or tie onto a bus bar. It's also unfair to expect him to carry every type of circuit breaker, for every different panel out there! I'm really not surprised to find some very creative wiring on the part of the welding profession!
Apart from crying "egads!," does anyone have any suggestions as to how the code, and manufacturers, can make things safer for the welder? Or, do we expect him to also supply a generator- and use it indoors?

I know of a insulation contractor around here that goes to jobs, takes off the panel cover. Drags out his extension cord (awg #10) and hooks it to the main lugs of the panel above the main by means of big alligator clips. Talk about potential injuries!...........Brian

ZR:
I've had a situation similar to that happen to me. There used to be a guy around here that installed urethane roofs on buildings, for which he needed a source of power. His power cable was a roughly 100 ft. length of ratty-looking #2 SER with UNINSULATED alligator clips on the end. I came home from work one day and found this mess connected to the main disco (line side, of course) on the side of my house. He was installing a roof on a building next door to me, and had not even asked permission to tap into my service! After I finished chewing him out, I called the police, then called a friend of mine who worked for the POCO to bring his gloves and disconnect this foolishness. I assessed him a fee for using my service, which he paid on the spot, then he picked up his equipment and went away.

I haven't seen him since. He probably electrocuted himself out of business.

Mike (mamills)

Wouldn't he have been better off, unhooking his plug from the extension cord, then hooking the cord directly to the circuit breaker? It would have probably taken less time and would have been a little safer. Trainwire

John Steinke-

Cmon, that's ridiculous! There's no excuse for an unsafe hookup like that. If OSHA walked onto that site, that guy would get slapped with a violation. 2 violations, actually, if you count the other cord as well. Not to mention that the welder isn't grounded either.
Besides, all he needs to carry around with him is some 6/2, a receptacle, and a QO, CH, and BR breakers to hook up safely. Electrical safety is everyone's business.

Hey Mike M--

Sounds like the roofer/laboratory technician should automatically get a Darwin Award, and bypass all the silly nomination paperwork.

And I'll bet he never got a poke connecting his "cord" with his charred/scarred palms and thick head.


[This message has been edited by Bjarney (edited 04-23-2002).]

Mamills,
Wow that is quite a story! I don't think I would have been that calm about it. Some people just don't think??...........Brian

ZR:
OOOOOPS!!! Spoke too soon...this guy is still in business (burned hands and all, most likely). Saw him doing a job on a small downtown building here. I think I'll tip off the local electrical inspector... Fire Dept and EMS have been too busy here lately anyway.

CT: Don't forget FPE!! (still a lot of that %*^&*&&$% out there...and seems like it's used a lot on temp poles. I wonder if there's some kind of hidden message there...?

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 04-23-2002).]

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 04-23-2002).]

Oooops! youre right, I forgot FPE! Actually, with an FPE breaker, you don't even need the welder!

your right CT , with FPE you defintely don't need the welder. just alot of wire!

Oh, Stop it!!
Who the heck uses FPE for temp services??
Please show me an FPE GFI C/B.
(even our temps have to be inspected)

Electure,

(There are FPE GFCI Circuit Breakers, I've got a few of them)

(Bill)

The beauty of the FPE panel is that thers no point bothering to install a breaker.
Now, that's convenient!

Electure:
Sorry... didn't mean to offend.

Actually, I have seen a number of temp services here in my area using FPE. They used to make a different dead-front which had space to install 4 or 5 breakers (in the upper part of the box). The lower part of the dead front was punched out for a pair of duplex receptacles, and one single (220v.?) receptacle as well. The receptacles were fastened directly to the dead front, connected to the breakers with short pieces of wire, and then the whole affair was kinda "squished" into place and secured.

I used to have a single pole FPE GFCI breaker in the panel in my house, before I replaced the entire thing with SqD a short time ago. It takes up the space of an NA frame (1") breaker, and has a handle the size of an NC type, along with a yellow "push to test" button. Not sure where the thing is now...probably threw it out with the panel when I upgraded.

Redsy: That's a good'un! Those darn breakers cost too much anyway...

Mike (mamills)

hey electure, belive it or not i've got a FPE gfi breaker. the darn thing works when you push the button. LOL! still say you should toss the junk , but how's there replacements work? anyone know.

ZR600......I'm currently using a 100' #12 wore out extension cord w/ missing ground prong and smallish alligator clips at the rusted out service to provide a modicum of power for our drills, porta-bands, and pony threader. Am I happy with it?... No! Can I realistically provide something better (safer)?.... No! Do I worry about it?...I did for the first five minutes(that was a week ago). Is it against code?.....No (90-2(b)5.
As a traveling crew specializing in building electrical transmission substations, there are four of us. One is an experienced journeyman lineman (foreman), the second is an experienced groundsman/operator, the third is an experienced operator/intermediate lineman ( who was, by the way, the other surviving person in the bucket alongside his lineman buddy and watched as his buddy was killed by adjacent power line static down at the Fairfield power house in the recent past. The fourth person is myself, an experienced licensed journeyman wireman. We are building a small 138kv switch/end station for a pipe-line deep in the middle of north east Texas country, deep in the middle of the rain, cold, lots of mud, no place to warm up, and no grunts to help out. All I'm saying is that the welder probably didn't like it anymore than us but he has a job to do and has to do it with what he has to do it with.......Burns

Sorry 3rd degree, your argument is not convincing.

How can you not provide something safer than that cord you describe? And how can you justify using a cord without a ground???????

Yes, the welder has a job to do. Does that mean he can just slap together some haphazard arrangement to get the job done? I don't think so.

Citing 90-2 b(5) as a defense for using that cord is weak, and it's really stretching the intent of that rule. I would argue that what you're using is temporary wiring, and therefore it must comply with Code.


[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 04-29-2002).]

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 04-29-2002).]

can some 'defense' be had in art 527 here? Note 527.3(B), 527.4(C)EX, 527.4(G).....

probably a weak defense.....

Sorry 3rd degree, but as the safety guy here at work I have to say that your defense does not fly. You sound like our maintenance leadman here. I was inspecting for illegal air guns and he said to me "That does not apply to us does it. We need those" I was kind of surprised, how could a safety rule apply to the rest of the plant but not to the maintenance department? (Actually I was not too shocked because I was his supervisor for 5 years) I know I sound like the typical safety guy, but I built up and ran the maintenance department here for 6 years. So I have been on both sides of the fence. I have heard many times, I know I shouldn't have done it that way but... I have done it that way before and nothing happened... You may be able to find an NEC loophole, but OSHA would not like it. How about going to Home Depot to at least get a new extension cord?

This is the thing that I have to fight all the time. If someone gets hurt and they did not know about the dangers that is one thing. But for someone to know about the dangers and disregard them is what infuriates me.

It would be to bad for your fellow worker to see another one of his buddies die on the job. I hope you live through this one.

Actually I know who you remind me of. That picture of the guy stading on a metal ladder using a drill while the ladder was in three feet of water. Joe can you post that picture again?

I am done ranting now. I will get off my soapbox and go back to work.
Scott

3rd degree, I just hope you don't take someones life away with your known crappy temp wiring. I hope you can then sleep at night knowing that 1 hour of work or less and a few dollars worth of equipment could have saved your fellow workers life. I hope you can also talk to his/her family and brag it all to them as you have here. My two cents take it our leave it..........Brian

geeeez! comeon there fellas, nobody, and i mean NOBODY here can claim NEC & OSHA perfection, let's not knock anyone around for fessin' up once in a while....

Well........actually this WAS a first for me, I admit. In hindsight, my posting may have been sideways over a slight amount of repressed resentment over having to use this cheesy mess.(I know..I know...no excuses) Guess I kinda identified with the welder and do any of us actually know his situation which led up to his ...contraption? Could have been lazy...but look at how much duct tape he used (would'a made Red Green proud). Actually, I lied. It's worse than I told you. My FOREMAN'S "service" actually consist of a 10 foot #12 extension cord with only 2 alligator clips...followed by a 100 foot.....followed by a 50 foot, from somewhere deep in a cornfield to our site. Being the only wireman there, this is how far I have to walk into chest high foliage to make the connection to an aging meter/disconnect, which serves 240v. cathodic protection for an oil pipeline. There is NO grounding available and the buried galvanized pipe carrying the 240v. has corroded itself from making contact with the disconnect. Of course, this is crazy. But here's the good news..... I finished the substation's service and AC distribution box today, replete with 4/0 grounding to the cadwelded ring grids. So...tommorrow I can connect my foreman's cheesy mess on the downstream lugs of our newly installed control house disconnect and plug into true grounded outlets........whew...and no...he would NOT accomodate the trouble of making it safer since he had nothing to make it safer with.......exception 12 foot copper electrode stakes and rolls of 4/0 bare copper for the grid.......mmmmmmmmmmmm..sigh

A TRUE DEATH WISH!!

Hey...c'mon guys. Actually, this was a first for me, I must admit. In hindsight my post was probably sideways from some repressed resentment having to deal with my BOSS'S jury rig crap and I was perhaps identifying with the welder. Is there one among us who knows of the welder's circumstances which led to that....contraption? Maybe he was lazy...but hey, probably not....look at how much duct tape he used (would have made Red Green proud). Anyway, and that rig I "hooked up" isn't mine...I was ordered by the foreman to hook up the crap which was already made and we were 40 miles away from civiliztion in the middle of the country. It REALLY was the first time working for this paticular company that I got saddled with three traveling crewdogs don't observe their own company's safety regulations. Of course, they ALWAYS were their hardhats and safety glasses. As a matter of fact, I did protest initially, but the Foreman(lead lineman) told me they had worked that way the previous week and please, just go hook it up(the alligator clips). That was a week ago today....You really want to know the truth?...I lied. The "temp.rig is actually WORSE than I originally described. Four worn out sections of #12 extension cord. The first section is 8 feet (and #14) with two bare automotive type clamps....next, a 100 foot section, followed by a 50 foot, the a 25 foot. Could I have grounded it myself?....No. Almost 200 feet is how far I must trudge through chest high foliage to reach a rusted out meter/disconnect serving a 240v. cathodic protection for an oil pipeline. There is no grounding. The old galvanized pipe leading from the disconnect into the earth, carrying the 240v. to the equipment (about 75 feet away and locked in its own enclosure) has completely corroded and is no longer bonded to the disconnect. I pulled the meter, made the requisite connections, and went back to the site expecting to at least get bit by the Rigid threader pony. Didn't happen...I WAS lucky. Am I responsible for my own safety?...you bet I am. Am I responsible for those three other's safety?....I probably should have been. I have never done it before..nor hae I ever have been told to do something this stupid After identifying my resentments as a motivator in my original post.....I never will again. By the way, Brian...not MY crappy wiring and, with all due respect, you could probably learn a lot from me, if given the chance.

The positive note is that I've finished with station service and the AC dist. box. I also brought in the 4/0 copper cadwelded to the yard's grid and so.... tommorrow I'll take the boss's cheesy cord and connect downstream of the newly installed house (control room) disconnect below the still dead transformer. At least this piece of ----will be fused (even if it doesn't deserve a ten amp rating it is current state) and WELL GROUNDED.

Burns

Hey 3rd.
OK you sound like a decent guy. with your first post it seemed like it was your cord and you knew it was wrong and did it all the time. I felt kind of bad about what I had written before and then Brian blew me out of the water. When you are in Ventura CA stop by and I will buy you a beer.

My point was if you know you are doing something wrong bring it to the companies attention. Often times guys will work with bad equipment and not try to replaces it. Like I always said when I ran the maintenance shop I can't fix it if I don't know it's broken. However since it was supplied by your foreman, that is a different situation. Would it be possible to accidently cut the plug off that is missing the grounding plug? I would also think about not doing another job for this company.

Sparky,
You are right, no one is in 100% compliance. But if you know something is wrong and against regs, shouldn't you correct it. When is it OK to knowingly break a regulation?

Hey 3rd, if you want some back up I could find the OSHA reg for you to get that stuff replaced. I just need to know what state you are in to know if it is under FED OSHA or a state program. Let me know if you want me to find it for you. Sounds like it is a moot point now anyway.

Peace to all.
Scott

Maybe I took a little to seriously. But if you reread your post directed to me, it does seem as though you are bragging about how you get away with the crap you are using. I agree nobody is perfect but here in central WI are inspectors are very tough on temp services! Actually the inspections are only tough in the major cities, in the boonies you can do just about anything. If you did not try to brag it then I am sorry for my outlash. ............Brian

Let's put it this way Scott, safety is a very relative concept, if you were an electrician out in the sticks as I, you'd see daily atrocities that would make most posted here seem benign.

One day you'd realize that regulation without enforcement fares closely to unfunded mandates big bro hands down, it just doesn't work.

hey third degree, nice to meet someone that knows he made a mistake & can admit it.i work with a bunch of maint. guys & when you ask what happened they don't know a thing.we all make mistakes & can learn from them, no matter how small or big.ERWIN

hey ! you guys joe's picture tells it all. this guy really does have a death wish.hope it's hooked to a gfi receptacle.

Sorry I'm so slow to get back...
ZR- I've also seen alligator clips used- often uninsulated (remember, welders have good, thick, dry gloves)
CT- I agree with your desire for safety. Even following your advice, the guy will either work with the front removed from the panel, or punch a hole in the side. Care to guess whether he'll plug that opening when he's through? Oddly enough, I have never seen any kind of "portable sub-panel" or electrical supplies at a welding supply shop.
Let's face it: the guy just wants to do his job and go on (as 3rd degree noted).
This is not, and never will be, a perfect world. There is always room for improvement. I believe that the need to perform maintenance, etc., is common enough to warrant manufacturers considering it in their designs. I also believe that some tasks -welding, for instance- occur with enough frequency that they ought to be anticipated- removing the need for such jury-rigging.
If necessity is the mother of invention, let's celebrate this Mother's Day by removing a few "mothers" from our jobsites!

To all-

I have to apologize as well if I sounded harsh. Far be it from me to criticize anyone, because we don't live in a perfect world. We can't always do it the best way. But, as an apprentice, I take safety very seriously, as I'm sure all of you do as well. And when we see something that is unsafe, I can tell that people on this BB are not going to stay quiet about it!
This reminds me of the saying: "Learn by experience, preferably other people's."

Guess what? Today an inspector (for the pipeline) came out to inspect our substation. Since its gonna be awhile before the utility even puts up 138kv lines across country to us(which we are dependent on to obtain our own house power via a single xrfmr....so now you guys & gals know why)..he wants us to temp 120v.power to the breaker heaters in the SF6 filled GCB's...manufacturer's warranty..blah..blah.. Long story short....he has a complete cow over the temp (like y'all did). But not even he is sure how to grab a ground. I know you guys are curious...just exactly how hard can it be? Well..trust me on this one...you would have to see it and understand the politics of "whose gonna". Is it the untility? Or is it the pipeline that must bear the brunt? Anyway, I did an emotional jig with a straight face, immediately extracted myself from the blame, and fielded him to my foreman whose piece of crap it is in the first place. Thanks for easing up on me guys. I DO know how to ground a major switchyard....I wasn't bragging about my unsafe condition (was I???). I guess this situation got out of hand and felt like the "welder" with some resentments for having to use the piece of crap in the first place.

Hey 3rd,
Well it sounds like we all like you. It is true that your first post sounded a little like bragging. But now we know that is not the case. I am glad you let the foreman handle that, since it was his problem in the first place. You must have sat there with a **** eating grin on you face.

Sparky,
True it is only illegal if you get caught. However for you guys who actually work on the stuff you have to realize the regs are there for a reason. Like you said no on is 100% compliant. Even our place I will admit. However the regs are on the books, at least the OSHA regs, because at some point in the past someone got hurt doing a job in that manner. So sure you can get by with breaking a reg. But that is still, as you know, not the right way to do things. I guess that I work in a better situation becuase I have one plat to look after. So I have a controlled situation. You have many situations that are bad to start with. Like 3rd with having a difficult way to supply a ground. The best thing you can do then is do the best you can and make sure that either only you work on the job, or have qualified people working with who know of the dangers.

Let me tell you a little story. It has nothign to do with electricity, but a story about regs. Air nozzles have to be made so that if you put it against your skin the air pressue is reduced to below 30 psi. If not an air bubble could enter your blood and prove fatal. Yeah sure that will never happen. After I gave some training on this a maint. guy came up and told me he had seen it happen. The guy died in 12 minutes. So there is some fact behind the regs.

Sure did make a lively discussion didn't it?

Scotts;

Ventura may be only 3K miles from Vermont, yet worlds away in the safety arena.
I do not brag here or advocate this.
It is simply an acknowledgement gained from reasearch on my part.
It occurs to me frequently that those who preach safety do so for a $$$$, so where the grass ain't green, they ain't seen.

Hey Sparky,
Not sure what side of the fence you are on. But I will tell you this, I am not in it for the $$$$. 3 years ago I quit my job as the maint. supr. to raise my kids. My son is autistic so it is no easy task. The company convinced me to stay on part time as the safety guy.
I have to motivate people here to not do things like stick their fingers on the spinning metal blade. The best way that I know how to do this is to tell people of past mistakes and to not repeat them. Similar to the pictures here.
Best of luck to you and watch out for yourself.
Scott

Hey Scott...thanks, no problem. Actually, I have also been in maintenance and occasionally I seem to generate a little friction with those "we always done it that way for years" types who seem resistant to taking the extra trouble to correct a potential problem. For instance, I did a 6 month stint a year ago as the electrical lead for the inside maintenance electricians at DFW International Airport (actual board employee). In the very ealy 70's when this port was build, I suppose BX was considered an adequate equipment grounding conductor, in and of itself. It was AMAZING how many corroded, broken, and disconnected BX connectors are all over that place-with no separate equipment grounding conductors within the BX's. Of course, one must consider that the lowest bids ALWAYS won the contracts.....Regards, Burns M.

Hey ZR600....ease up, Brian. The dangerous situation doesn't even exist anymore, for which I'm thankful. BTW, to contrast how paradoxical on safety some electricians can be, consider my above reply to Scott with reference to the DFW grounding problems with BX being used as the equipment grounding conductors. Yet, these are the SAME personnel who, when I introduced them to MC cable, balked at using MC because NONE of them had been exposed to it. For years and years they only knew how to bend pipe and pull wires. Here's the paradox...nevermind that they could use the MC for some applications.(WHICH ALWAYS HAS AN INSULATED GROUND). Neither did they like it when I made them pigtail separate grounds to every single box, whether it was sw,recep,bell, or four sq. They saw it as a waste of time..I didn't. Yet they were all "experience electricians" who were sheltered in one place too long and resistant to accomodating modern safety practices. I that case, however, I WON the fights because I was boss.