It's a mess...no aurguement

I know the area. I worked on Lego Land. At the time there was a lot of those expensive homes going in and a lot of condos too. I looked into renting temporarily while I was working down there but prices were way out of my range. Just goes to show there is shoddy work everywhere regardless of how much you pay.
I found that Carlsbad was real tough in plan check but not too tough when it came to field inspections.

[This message has been edited by Nick (edited 02-10-2002).]

Nick-
Yeah, the real estate prices are ridiculous in California. And like you said, just because you pay alot doesnt mean you get quality. The wiring wasnt the only thing that was questionable. The ductwork and plumbing was really bad too.

I dont know enough about framing and carpentry to comment on that though.

I read somewhere that CA doesnt require electricians to be licensed. Do you think licensing would prevent some of this mess?

There are so many houses going up in that area that it doesnt seem like an inspector could possibly catch all the mistakes. I wonder if these even got inspected at all, like you said.

The guys wiring those houses might have 2 years experience maybe $12 (Top Dog) per hour and no foreman. And on top of that some guy wondering why they didn't finish in 2 days.
They usually got a real eye-opener when they went to work for someone who cared.
Maybe that will change now that CA is finally working towards getting electricians licensed. Hopefully this will eliminate the Kmart electricians. "I have my pouch and tools now I am an electrician"

It amazes (and somewhat frightens) me that there could be an unlicensed electrician on this planet although I know that's the reality. It also amazes me that there are strict licensing requirements for beauticians/hair cutters and none for electricians in some states although a bad hair day for an elected or legislative official can be disastrous since there's no insurance against the imminent damage that looking anything less than polished could do to one's political image (said tongue in cheek) whereas there is insurance for replacing valuables when they're torched in an electrical fire.

Buggaboo-
Well said! I am amazed as well that a state like CA with all its "progressive thinking" doesnt require electricians to be licensed!!! And from what I've heard, it will be years before the new licensing requirements go into effect.

wirewiz-
Yeah, that sounds about right. I remember going into a house with no wiring one day and when I came back the next day to snap some photos, the wiring was almost done!!! I guess with that pay, no supervision, and no license, this is what you get! I hope that licensing eliminates these "elecktrishins," too. I know it wont solve the problem, but it should make it better.


I couldnt believe it when I opened that panel and saw all the 15 amp breakers labelled "lighting"!

As a Californian, I am ashamed of wiring I see like this.
I'm also ashamed of the State's requirements for electrishuns to perform work...NONE!

Please understand that we don't condone this type of garbage. Lots of this type of work is done by the guys that jump the fence at San Ysidro, then work "under the table" for unethical Contractors that don't give a rat's *** about quality.
(And then there's the "piece workers")

Electure-
Piece workers? Are those the guys that get paid based on how many outlets they can install in a day?
BTW, I didnt mean to offend anyone on this site from California. I am sure that no one with any pride would ever do work like this.

In case anyone is interested, these homes are built by national companies that have nice glossy brochures saying how their company is the "Quality Builder" or "Premier Luxury Homebuilder" etc.

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 02-17-2002).]

I'm pretty new in the carrer field, in fact I'm still in training for the Air Force. But I worked with my dad since I was 10 (who's an electrician) and he woulda wooped my @ss if I installed a box or panel like that. I guess it just goes to show you how much the world is going for quantity and not quality. But its refreshing to find craftsman that share the same ideal's. Don

Piece workers get paid per unit. If it passes inspection, it's done.
A lot of my beef has to do with the "combination inspectors". Like they say Jack-*** of all trades, Master of none.
These guys are at much to blame as the jerks that are doing the half-burro work.

Electure, DITTO
Most of the smaller towns have them.
I always thought it kind of odd when I would talk with some of those triple threat inspectors just to find out that they used to be a painter, roofer, or carpenter in the trades. They were tired of having too much time off and wanted something steady so here they are working for the local building dept as an inspector. All they had to do is take a few code classes on each trade and they're in! It used to amaze me when I would be installing something and they would ask what it was. ( Because they didn't know ) Who's supposed to be watching watching Who here?

Hey Wireman:
Try this one on for size...a couple of months ago, I saw a group of breakers, in a panel. Beside the breakers was written "lightning"...

Kinda scary...

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 02-19-2002).]

Mike-

"Lightning"???? Wow!! That is pretty scary. I wouldnt want to look inside that panel! I've seen a few good ones too, like "firnace", "garbidge diposal", and "garge."

Most of the panels that I saw in this development (I checked a bunch just to make sure!) are labelled "plugs + lights, kitchen, furnace, GFI, dryer." One thing I hate is "plugs and lights." I guess these guys dont know how to label a wire, not to mention "plugs and lights" is a Code violation!!! And "GFI"? Which one???

electure + wirewiz-

It makes me wonder who inspected these houses, if they go inspected at all! At the time, there were several hundred houses being built, so I imagine they werent inspected too carefully.

So with piece work, the more you install in a day, the more you make? Do they use piece work for rough-in wiring as well?

These pictures are just the tip of the iceberg. I dont even want to get into some of the wiring that the landscapers did on these places!

I think there is some confusion here about Calif. licensing requirements....speaking as a Licensed Calif. Electrician -

Calif. Does require ALL electrical contractors to be licensed, who then are supposed to supervise journeymen who supervise apprentices.

What is happening in Calif. (your reference to a couple of yrs. before Ca. starts licensing) is the Calif. Certification Program requirements for electricians. Under this program you have to document (through a state approved apprenticeship program) 8000 hrs. of training in various areas...residential, commercial, industrial, stockroom, conduit bending, etc....then you take a state certification exam. There's only one small glitch in this 'approved' apprenticeship program - there is only one school in the entire state that is approved other than the union....this is kind of like letting the fox watch the hen house....anyway...part 2 of your above thread...

what has been happening in Calif. is such a huge construction boom that the unions (hiring halls, etc.) could not supply all the electricians needed for all the work....so the union opened up their hiring hall to ANY person from out of state claiming electrical experience (as long as the union received some transfer fees + dues)...so we've had folks from all over the country coming to Calif. for the higher wages working on these construction jobs. In Calif. a General Contractor (vs. an Elect. contractor) can hire the other trades - he just calls up the union hall and depends on the hall to send over the 'qualified' electricians for the work required. Ultimately the General is responsible for the poor workmanship but he definitely is not qualified to be supervising the work.

I'm really curious about how this 'certification' will work out for the unions (they pushed this state legislation) - this will give them almost complete control over the electrical trades, but I have serious doubts as to how many will be able to pass the state certification exam .The union can rubber stamp the apprenticeship hours but the individuals will have to pass the exam on their own and I understand it will actually be pretty tough.

I really don't mean to bad-mouth the union in all of this; but the photos speak for themselves...and this is typical of other's work I've seen.

Then to push this thread a little further - we can try to blame the inspectors. What is also happening in Calif. is municipalities are 'bundling' all the inspectors into one "Combination" inspector (he has to know All the trades when doing an inspection)....And this inspector often only has 10-15 minutes to inspect the entire job-site! all trades! and of course these inspectors are notorious for being weakest in electrical.

dana-

Thanks for clarifying the situation regarding licensing. So if I understand correctly, CA requires all contractors to be licensed, but doesnt have the traditonal licensing requirements for electricians that 25 U.S. states have. Correct?

I dont know if the work in the pictures was done by a union contractor but I do know that at least one union contractor was wiring houses in this development. I do know the names of the companies that did the work above so if anyone lives near San Diego I can email them the names.


Anyway, I think this has sparked (no pun intended) a really interesting discussion. I didnt think I would get so much response when I posted them. I was really amazed when I first visited the west coast, initially at the volume of new homes being built and then at how bad this wiring is compared to the way I was taught. I later discovered that wiring like this is in literally thousands of homes in the west.

CTwireman, dana is correct. All Contractors in California have to be licensed. The individuals (Journeymen or apprentices) were not required to hold any type of certification until recently. So, all liability went back to the contractor. There was not any accountability on the individuals doing the work. I think that's why some of the workmanship is poor in some places.
I agree also, you can't blame the inspectors for the workmanship I just think that it compounds the problem sometimes.

I am curious who the contractors are if you would, email me.
Thanks,
wirewiz

wirewiz-
I agree that blaming the inspectors does compound the problem. But, I think we can lay blame across the board because everyone involved is cutting corners. In order to solve the problem, we have to start somewhere. The home builders and the electrical contractors are partly to blame.

But the inspector is the last line of defense against bad workmanship. Once the sheetrock goes up, everyone forgets about whats behind the walls until the trouble starts. So tougher inspections done by well-trained inpectors, along with stringent licensing tests, are two essential ways to solve the problem. Ultimately, I'm really looking for solutions here, and not just scapegoating.


By the way, those violations in the pictures could easily be fixed with a $.30 3M Stacker. And start using insulated staples!! We aren't talking about major $ to fix these problems.

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 02-20-2002).]

[This message has been edited by CTwireman (edited 02-20-2002).]

A Union housing contractor? In 2002?! And in San Diego County!

[This message has been edited by Nick (edited 02-20-2002).]

Nick-

Its true! I was somewhat surprised myself, because where I am from, the union never wires houses, or even does small jobs, for that matter. If youre interested in the name of said contractor I can email it to you.