Thanks to "ianh" for the following photos from the Isle of Man.

do my eyes decieve me, or is that an entire load center just dangling there in pic #2?

is this so you can get a " Free air" rating on the cables?? Just kidding!
those look almost like miniture "wide" Federal pioneer breakers!

Boy,
Are there some issues here or what??.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of cable support in these pictures.
I take it that the red cables in the 1st picture are Fire Alarm cables?.
What exactly is holding that consumer unit up in the second picture?.
Person who left this work in this condition, needs to be de-registered, or at least shot.
This whole job is nothing short of a mess.
One thing I find strange is that enclosure above the meter, in pic #4, where that Steel Wire armoured cable enters and there are the meter tails and another cable leaving.
Is that a proper PoCo joint in that box?.

Unless my eyes deceive me, are those not a couple of arc-fault breakers in the bottom photo? If so, the equipment on the other end should be reasonably protected from any flashovers that are sure to occur somewhere else in the mess.:-)

Whats up with the conduit in the first pic?

C/Pilot,
I think they might actually be RCD's (Residual Current Device)(like a GFI).
One other small thing, I don't like the look of them bare pan unit landings, they should be shrouded if they aren't being utilised.
There's 400 or so volts between each of them bits of copper and they dont take too kindly to things like hands and tools touching them or bridging them out.

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I take it that the red cables in the 1st picture are Fire Alarm cables?.
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Correct.


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What exactly is holding that consumer unit up in the second picture?.
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The consumer unit is being held up by two of the twin and earth cables which are clipped onto a joist.


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One thing I find strange is that enclosure above the meter, in pic #4, where that Steel Wire armoured cable enters and there are the meter tails and another cable leaving.
Is that a proper PoCo joint in that box?.
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Hell no. The PoCo cut-out and meter are in the bottom of the third photo. The meter at the top of the box is a private meter and is fed from the MCB at the bottom left of the panel. The load side of the meter is then connected to the RCD and then out through that SWA to a consumer unit at the other end of the pub.

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Unless my eyes deceive me, are those not a couple of arc-fault breakers in the bottom photo?.
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No they're not. The panel has a 100A disconnector at the bottom of the panel, two 63A three phase MEM MCBs, and two 63A single phase MCBs with RCBO attachments.

There is no RCD protection for the installation at the board, the only RCDs are the ones you see hanging which go off to other distribution boards.

Ian

They have a different standard for neat and workman like on the other side of the "pond", eh.

Ian,

Re the DP screwed to the underside of the joist in pic #4, is there really as much outer sheath stripped back from the SWA as appears in the photo?

The cables on the lower left 3ph breaker in the last pic have their insulation stripped back a long way too, so at least there might be a degree of consistency!

Why the private meter? Is that feeding a separate accommodation block or something like that? I can't quite make it out, but the DP feeding the second SWA cable looks like it might be only single phase.

The hanging consumer unit in pic #2 looks like plug-in Wylex breakers, although I think GE makes compatibles for the Wylex Standard series as well -- The odd 30A (red) C/B might be a GE.

P.S. At least CENELEC would be happy -- He used the new color code! Looks like he only bought 6181Y in brown though.


[This message has been edited by pauluk (edited 01-05-2006).]

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They have a different standard for neat and workman like on the other side of the "pond", eh.
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No need for comments like that MikeK3145.


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...is there really as much outer sheath stripped back from the SWA as appears in the photo?
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Yes it really has been stripped back that far.


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Why the private meter?
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Don't know. It used to be a pub/brewery owned by one person, but they have now spilt it into two.

The brewery is what you are looking at in the photos and the pub is on the second floor. However, the private meter is connected to the 3 phase supply for the brewery and the pub kitchen, and the other single phase sub-main feeds the pub distribution board. Makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

For all things considered, I've seen worse temp wiring over here in the states before, although most of it didn't have 400V of potential. (Well, once I saw 12/3 NM-B being used in a dept store remodel to power 2X4 troughers, open splices everywhere.. I'd bet 480V was present there )

Ianh, do you folks over there bond your neutral and your earth together in your main circuit board (like we do) or does the utility do it on their side? Just curious due to the open neutral issue...

Randy

Tangled up in all that almighty mess, notice the push-fit grey pvc mains-water pipes, [pic 2], in a jolly assortment of 15mm and 22mm OD, and all practically unsupported, [the token 'pipe supports' are electrical clips!]. These pipes will be on at least 50psi water pressure. Some water pipe is insulated with a foam jacket and some not (?), and one portion of insulation jacket is stripped off (pic 1), [probably got in the way of his needles as he was knitting the cuffs!!!]. My experience of these push-fit pvc plumbing fittings is they break without warning even when well supported, usually right under a bath at midnight. So, a plumbing nightmare as well, and even more fun and frolics to follow!
Why did the pub landlord allow the mess to get this far? It must have been patently obvious to even the most feeble minded that the so called 'contractor' was a berk long before things got this bad.

Alan

Ian,

Sorry. That was meant to be humerous. Apparently I failed miserably.

I got the sarcasm Mike.

I wouldn't be so sure Alan. Plumbing suppliers here are now selling pipe clips which are exactly the same design as the larger sizes of round cable clips. I'm still very much attached to traditional copper piping with soldered joints though.


We always keep neutral and earth separate in the panel. The bond -- if present -- is made on the service ahead of the meter. It would be on the big black unit you can see at the bottom of pic #3. I say "if present" because we have multiple grounding arrangements in use and there is not always a neutral-ground bond on the premises.

I can't actually see an earth bond going into the service head. Ian, is this a TN-S system?

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Why did the pub landlord allow the mess to get this far?
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The building is being refurbished at the moment, even though it is still being used. The roof was recently replaced which was when the board filled up with dust and the RCDs seized up. The owner believed that this was acceptable as the works were ongoing.


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do you folks over there bond your neutral and your earth together in your main circuit board (like we do) or does the utility do it on their side?
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As Paul says, the neutral and earth are seperated in the boards, and we (the utility) do the neutral earth bonding. You wouldn't expect the find the bond in the service head here, we bond at the pillars and at the substation, or in rural settings on some poles along the route.


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I can't actually see an earth bond going into the service head. Ian, is this a TN-S system?
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No - TT which is why I was concerned about the lack of a 3 phase RCD before the main board.


MikeK3145 - I might have got the sarcasm if I hadn't been in a bad mood when I read it. My bad.....

Ian,
I was wondering about that, mate.
I've never seen a reply like that from you in the past.
End of subject.

Message edited to remove an underscore}




[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 01-07-2006).]

I know the power went out but how was the beer and food

Do you mean that you don't actually have any houses wired for PME? (i.e. That the distribution lines are multiple-earthed, but that from the service drop onward it's effectively TN-S?)

Two points for those not familiar with things on this side of the Big Pond. First, you can see a sketch of the three main grounding arrangements in the U.K. here:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum15/HTML/000074.html

Second, a reminder that while the Isle of Man is located a few miles away from mainland Britain and follows British practice in most things to a large degree, it is not part of the United Kingdom, so there are differences.

Just so that everybody is aware of that.

I particularily like the use of Non MEM blanks on the dis-board, so when the cover is removed all the busbars are nice and exposed and ready to recieve your fingers. The proper MEM ones effectiveley shield the busbar stubs and make it a lot safer to work in the board when energised. Also the amount of debris inside the disboard is unacceptable, should have been cleaned out before use.

Nick

Welcome aboard Nick.

I hadn't noticed it before, but you're right. If you look at the bottom of the last pic there is a lot of dirt there.

as some of you know here on the forum, nearly all of our work is related to the public house, nightclub and liesure industry.

personally i would not, or any of my crew, leave an installation in such a bad condition, temporary or not.

that is just not done, the lack of MCB blanks is one thing butjust the condition of the instalaltion raises more questions.

Pic # 2, appears to be a Wylex MCB board with maybe one 32A MCB and alot of lighting circuits connected, fed via what appears to be a bit of 10mm T/WE (twin and Earth similar to romex, the cable colours are the new harmonised type,
Is the BD staying or is it going, you could place all of those circuits on the main DB (the memsheild 2 board.

the SWA connected tot he Joint box, i would be worried about even opening that can of worms.!

pic # 3, the suspended RCD, well there aint a lot to say really about that one just, WHY??

pic # 5, the connection of cables to the lower TPN MCB, was the guy just lazy or does he like to test circuits energised by placing huis test equipment onto the exposed portion of the conductor entering the MCB ?

Earthing, this does not appear to be within code, 16mm tails incoming 10mm out, i dont think so!

main earth connection shall be the same diameter as the main supply feeds.

the thing in the US of `flying splices` well this just takes the biscuit, i would in no way shape or form leave this service enrgised in this condition.

temporary or not, it is just an absolute mess, especially as the property is occupied by customers and staff !!

frightening, very frightening .....

i hope that this instalaltion is going to re done soon, very soon..

Britspark

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Do you mean that you don't actually have any houses wired for PME? (i.e. That the distribution lines are multiple-earthed, but that from the service drop onward it's effectively TN-S?)
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Correct - we don't bother with PME over here, so you it's either a TN-S system in the urban areas or TT in the rural areas.


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Also the amount of debris inside the disboard is unacceptable, should have been cleaned out before use.
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All the debris had entered the board over the last few months while the roof was replaced - the board was apaprently live throughout the works! I don't even know if it was covered up. We cleared a load of dust out when we took the cover off.


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Earthing, this does not appear to be within code, 16mm tails incoming 10mm out, i dont think so!
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For a TN-S system that would be acceptable.


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i hope that this instalaltion is going to re done soon, very soon..
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Me too - my professional curiosity is getting the better of me, and I think an inspection is due. I will let you know how they are getting on.


Ian

Yeouch! That's bad! And to think I thought _my_ temp wiring was bad...

One thing to mention though...
You call that a lot of dust??? During construction works Austrian panels often have a full inch of debris at the bottom, especially the older fuse panels. Along with cigarette butts and other trash the electricians conveniently placed there. To be honest, the way most of my collegues smoke I'm always surprised when I open an old fuse panel and _don't_ find at least three cigarette butts in there.