Went on a service call for tripped breakers and found this.



We don't need no stinking lug kits, go to the truck and get me a 1" x 10 SMS and a fender washer.

I believe they pulled off a neutral bar to make space for this modification.

It was definitely a quality job, my call was for "exit signs, EBUs, wall outlets and fire alarm panel not working".

It turns out they where all on one circuit. I did find two conductors on that one breaker and separated that, but the FACP is still not a dedicated circuit.

I have recommend they have us come in and pull some new circuits. I doubt they will spend the money.

Bob

Don't let the batteries go dead on your camera, Bob.
Seems to me anyway that if there isn't a change made in this one, you will be back at some time and posting a picture reminiscent of a couple of others you've posted in the past.

This installation looks fairly new, is it not?

Isn't it a local code violation to not have the FA panel on a dedicated circuit?

What's up with the AL grounded conductor in the lug to the right of the screw/washer? It looks cooked, as does the insulation.

steve

stamcon- I believe that the browning that makes that right hand grounded conductor look cooked is anti-oxident gel, you can see a little of the same thing on the left hand conductor as well, on the bare wire right above the lug

-Will

What about the far right lug in looks like it arked... or is that also oxident gel

CT I believe that NFPA 72 requires a dedicated circuit for fire alarm systems.


scouter, that is just a glob of anti-oxidant gel.

Bob

That reminds me of a commercial job my father was involved with pricing way back in the 1970s.

When he examined the plans he found an elevator alarm system was shown as running on the same circuit as the elevator control gear itself.

Stuck at work on Saturday, so here is the 1999 NFPA 72

1-5.2.5.2 Connections to the light and power service SHALL be on a dedicated branch circuit(s). The circuit(s) and connections shall be mechanically protected. Circuit disconnecting means SHALL have a red marking shall be accessible only to authorized personnel, an shall be identified as FIRE ALARM CIRCUIT CONTROL. The location of the circuit disconnecting means shall be permanently identified at the fire alarm control unit.

Enjoy!!!

Nice cite, George. Anybody live where NFPA 72 has been adopted?

As for the sheet metal screw- where's the violation? Doesn't the NEC only address ground screws?

Allright, hold your horses. Hackwork is hackwork. Just pointing out the weaknesses of the code!

I think we went down a blind alley with the "sheet metal screw" provision. If nothing else, it sets the stage for a conflict with 110.14(A).
How about a general provision that connectors will be used as designed? The "sheet metal screw" issue came up, IMO, not because of the screw itself, but because the screws were being used improperly (too large of a hole, etc). Improper use will make any fastener fail.


Meanwhile, back to the pic. Just what is the screw attached to? Are we inadvertantly bonding the neutral to the case with it?

It looks like the outer neutral bar was removed and the lug is attached in it's place. Are there 2 grounded conductors under one screw at the lower right of the photo?

steve

Yes, I live in the State of VA, and it is referenced as the standard in the VA Fire Prevention Code. Also, All military reservations within the Military District of Washington (Now Wash. Headquarters Service actually) use 72-99 as the standard.

It is where your smoke detector placements come from as well.

I believe the screw in the fender washer is the original screw from that hole, where the neutral bus was removed; it's not a sheet-metal screw at all.

The left end of the neutral bar behind the line lugs is shaped like the right end, so that screw is definitely in the neutral bar, and not the enclosure.

You can believe that, but you would be mistaken.

The original screw was gold in color, take a look at the neutral bar mounting screws that remain.

If you saw it in person you would have no doubts.

Bob

You're absolutely correct. I copied and enlarged the image; the screw heads are definitely different. My bad.

I would have violated the code by inserting each strand of that wire under its own screw on that bar next to where the fendder washer currently is.... :-)

wa2ise,

Please explain that.
(SquareD sells lug kits for this purpose)

That's a trick I've seen done here a good few times where somebody tries to add a heavier bonding cable and it won't fit the largest available hole on the ground bar.

Not to get too far off the point, but there also appear to be two neutrals landing on one screw at the lower right. What, the installer didn't see those other empty ones?

the longer I look at this, the more I think even with the fender washer, I don't think there's a whole lot of metal to metal contact between the lug and the bracket it's fastened to...

Randy