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Posted By: Joe Tedesco It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/26/02 10:31 PM
[Linked Image]

Sent In From the Field for ECN Review

Quote
Here's a photo of a panelboard at our company. It's a non-powered mock-up of
how our wiring solution would be terminated at the panelboard. The application
is for a large PC installation, such as in an office. Thus, the potential for
harmonics, unbalanced loads, and the reason for the multiple neutrals.
Posted By: CTwireman Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/26/02 11:38 PM
This is an easy one.

Multiple grounded conductors under one terminal are no longer permitted. With all the unused terminals on the bar, this is easy to fix.

This is a subpanel, therefore, grounding conductors cannot be mixed with grounded conductors. This is also easy to fix, simply install a ground bar and remove the grounds from the neutral bar.

Otherwise, this "installation" is very neat.

Sorry, I can't cite code references since I don't have the '02 book. I'm sure other members can.
Posted By: CTwireman Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/26/02 11:57 PM
similar thread:

https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000061.html
Posted By: sparky Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 01:02 AM
stripped noodles...ooooh
Posted By: n1ist Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 01:14 AM
Depending on the load, you may want a tie on each set of 3 breakers (such as when you are feeding a bunch of modular furniture)
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 01:18 AM
<devil's advocate>
Since when is anything but white or grey allowed for grounded conductors? The NEC specifies green or yellow with a green stripe for equipment grounding conductors, but no provisions are given for duel colored conductors being allowed for the grounded conductor.
</devil's advocate>

Is this allowed?

(I realize that this is the new Romex with 2 noodles, but is it legal?)

[Linked Image]
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 01:49 AM
Hey 66:
What "romex" you talking about???????

BTW, we have used "striped" neutrals....
Had a electronics mfg plant that had some stringent and strange specs....
White w/red, pink, yellow, black, orange...
Green w/ (matching the above)

The above was installed to feed electronics racks from a "clean" sub-panel...
Besides the strange colors, everything was numbered....
Wsa a real good client until they went "belly-up"
John
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 01:54 AM
Wow, got of the subject there, sorry...
Your panel is a neat job, but it gets a red sticker.
Grd & neutrals on same bar; bonding neutral at sub-panel; multiple conductors terminated at neutral bar;
I'm assuming this is a conduit job, as I believe the only "striped" white wre available is MTW/THW or THHN.
Have you used or thought about AFC's "Super Neutral" MC cable...great for office partitions....
John
Posted By: CTwireman Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 01:56 AM
HotLine,

There's a new Romex product from Southwire designed for 2 cicuits.
http://www.southwire.com/news/050702.htm

I believe striped neutrals are also standard fare with the new multiple-neutral MC cable.
http://www.afcweb.com/pdfs/01catalog/01cat-p17-hr.pdf
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 02:06 AM
I don't see any provision in Article 200 that permits the use of colored stripes on the white wires for grounded conductors, except for the identification of grounded conductors of different systems. I don't see any problem using them except that it is not in complete compliance with the NEC. I would expect that Southwire has submitted proposals to change this in the 2005 code.
don
Posted By: Bjarney Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 04:10 AM
In 99NEC200-6(a) “An insulated grounded conductor of No. 6 or smaller shall be identified by… three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length.” It looks like maybe the pictured “neutral” wires could fit that description, or is that stretching it?
Posted By: sparky66wv Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 04:20 AM
Hmmm, I guess if one were to trace a red line and see if they are indeed three seperate ones, it'd be OK...

I stand corrected, BJ!
Posted By: lwinter31 Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 06:18 AM
Personally havn't seen the new 2/2 romex yet, but
wouldn't it be useful with the home automation
equipment with a top feed 3-way where you need
the "noodle" at the switch, might come in handy there to. Just a thought !
Posted By: RSmike Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 02:06 PM
Let me tell you a little more about the installation since I'm the photographer.

It's used to feed a modular panel installation. 'Conduit' is used to feed the subpanel. The mocked-up panel is in a show area for our customers along with our products. The people that see this panel are designers of offices and not electricians or NEC gurus.

The separate neutrals are one of our companies selling points. Think of all those PCs out there with all those harmonics and imbalanced loads. Our modular panel system helps out by having this multiple neutral system. I'm not sure why the neutral couldn't just be sized larger but I'm guessing it was a physical sizing problem. My guess is the larger neutral would not fit into the modular panel wiring system.

I showed the subpanel to one of our electromagicians that works in the plant and he saw the problem immediately.

I'm not sure who or what wired the panel. It was probably wired for aesthetics rather than for NEC. I just think it's humorous that it's so proudly displayed. I'm going to see if I can get it fixed. Then maybe I call for an inspection. [Linked Image]

RSlater,
RSmike
Posted By: resqcapt19 Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 02:49 PM
Bjarney,
That looks like a red stripe on white insulation, not a white stripe on red insulation, and there is only one stripe, the code required 3 stripes.
Don
Posted By: RSmike Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 07:46 PM
Oh yeah almost forgot. The panel specifically says only two #12 allowed under any terminals.

No romex here either. It's all THHN.

There's a neutral bar on the other side of the panel. Ideally the bonding screw should be removed. Green on one side....white on the other other.....boy girl boy girl.

I've always thought that a stipe down the netural meant it was isolated. These are the same neutral at the panel. I think they should all be white with no stripe. Could someone provide their insight?

RSlater,
RSmike
Posted By: Gwz Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 08:09 PM
RSmike,

Are you sure that the two conductors per terminal was for all terminations or only for the EGC's.
Usually Grounded circuit conductors are only allowed one conductor per terminal. 110-14(A).
Posted By: blackhat Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 11/27/02 11:34 PM
on a job i was on
we were making up smurf tube with serval 1900 boxs, each circuit had to have it on neutral, so thy came up and sent to us neutral wire with traser so thy would know with neutral went with which circuit.(smurf tube were made up in the shop and ship out to job
Posted By: RSmike Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 12/02/02 03:35 PM
Hey Gwz....me thinks you are correct.

RSlater
RSmike
Posted By: harold endean Re: It's a non-powered mock-up - 12/08/02 03:06 AM
Do you know how many times I have to argue with contractors about putting 2 neutral wires under 1 terminal. They still don't get it. The answer back to me is, "Look at the panel board. It says right on there that you can install up to three wires of the same size up to # 10 wire." I tell them to read the panel board again. It says 2 or more grounding condutors, not grounded conductors. seesh!
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