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Posted By: Joe Tedesco Overcrowded Box! - 03/20/02 10:25 PM
[Linked Image]

This mess was discovered in an
entertainment sound and lighting shop located in North Carolina.
Posted By: CTwireman Re: Overcrowded Box! - 03/21/02 12:43 AM
Well, at least they wrote a disclaimer about the black, red and blue wires being 277.

They forgot to write: "This box is messy and over crowded and contains code violations"

Is 120 and 277 mixed in this box?
Posted By: Redsy Re: Overcrowded Box! - 03/21/02 03:59 AM
Where's the problem? A simple calculation reveals---
1) There are (3) 1/2" KOs. on each side of the box
2) There are 4 sides
3) That makes (12) 1/2" KOs
4) 1/2" thinwall is good for (9) #12 THWN
5) 9 x 12 = 108 #12s allowed in that box
6) I think there's room for 80 more.
Posted By: Electricmanscott Re: Overcrowded Box! - 03/21/02 11:37 AM
They should have used smaller wirenuts!
Posted By: olddoubles Re: Overcrowded Box! - 03/21/02 01:50 PM
PLEASE! CAN'T I PUT JUST 2 MORE WIRES IN THERE!
Posted By: NonLinearLoad Re: Overcrowded Box! - 03/24/02 05:45 AM
Hmmm, is it ok to put his 277v lighting in with what I'm assuming may be 120v circuits? At least they are warning the next guy. And hopefully he used 12 solid to cut them short, just so they would fit a little better.
12 stranded seems much easier to get into boxes in general, yet to be a packer of sorts, and forget the extension ring at the shop doesn't help either.
Jay
Posted By: klein man Re: Overcrowded Box! - 03/28/02 02:38 AM
hmmm. Well, lets just hope there's atleast power going through that. I would rip all that out and make it more organized. I cant stand disorganization!!!
Posted By: Knightelectrical Re: Overcrowded Box! - 10/31/03 02:03 AM
Non Linear Load.
200.6 D states:
"Where conductors of different systems are installed in the same raceway, cable, box, auxiliary gutter, or other type of enclosure, one system grounded conductor, if required, shall have an outer covering conforming to 200.6(A) or 200.6(B). Each other system grounded conductor shall have an outer covering of white with a readily distinguishable, different colored stripe other than green running along the insulation, or shall have other and different means of identification as allowed by 200.6(A) or (B) that will distinguish each system grounded conductor." NEC 2002
I wonder which was the neutral, Black, red or blue?
Posted By: txsparky Re: Overcrowded Box! - 10/31/03 02:42 AM
LOL at Redsy!! [Linked Image]
It seems way too many so called electricians calculate box fill by that very method.
Yup, I'm tellin you boys they woodint uv give us all them thar knockouts ifn they didnt wan us a usin em!!
Posted By: u2slow Re: Overcrowded Box! - 10/31/03 04:23 AM
Messy or not... wouldn't a simple extension ring address the box fill issue?
Posted By: crash Re: Overcrowded Box! - 10/31/03 06:04 AM
You could stack 3 or 4 extension rings on the box "lego style".
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: Overcrowded Box! - 10/31/03 12:10 PM
Use of an extension ring(s) may solve this problem, but the NEC requires that all of the conductors in the box must be capable of extending from the edge of the last ring too at least 3 inches outside, and no splices are allowed.

See 300.14 Length of Free Conductors at Outlets, Junctions, and Switch Points.
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: Overcrowded Box! - 12/24/03 08:25 AM
Attic Overcrowding of Boxes!

[Linked Image from ww2.imagewiz.net]

Look Here for More Stuff: Wall of Shame!
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?forumid=21
Posted By: electricman2 Re: Overcrowded Box! - 12/25/03 01:05 AM
I would like to see the inside of that one but I would be afraid to loosen the cover screws.
Posted By: SvenNYC Re: Overcrowded Box! - 12/25/03 09:31 AM
Shoulda written the following on that box lid:

"WARNING! CONTENTS UNDER PRESSURE!"
Posted By: circuit man Re: Overcrowded Box! - 12/26/03 03:49 AM
yeah how did they get all of them wires in there. should be a warning that says "open at your own risk".LOL!
Posted By: Big Jim Re: Overcrowded Box! - 12/26/03 04:38 AM
I followed that link. Mostly HVAC stuff but there are some real interesting pics. One of a heavy feeder bunged to copper pipe to fit the lugs.
Posted By: PCBelarge Re: Overcrowded Box! - 12/26/03 01:34 PM
That is not an issue, those are the heating boxes for the attic. [Linked Image]

Really, how does someone even begin to think that this installation is remotely okay. Because this is so blatant, I would think this person bids low and only is concerned with the bottom line. I would also bet this person is the first to cry fowl when he has some poor job thrown his way. This is idiotic and gives our industry a black eye.

The question begs - as a legimate contractor do you tell the customer this needs to be fixed?

Pierre
Posted By: kale Re: Overcrowded Box! - 12/29/03 08:45 PM
Hey, that box isn't full, there are still knockouts that aren't used!
Posted By: rizer Re: Overcrowded Box! - 01/06/04 08:40 AM
i thought it was 6 inches free conductor? conductors of different systems are allowed in the same box as long as there are no devices in that box. unfortunately, i know of no code which differentiates between 120 and 277v colors, a good electrician uses boy colors, brown orange yellow and grey for the neutral.
Posted By: 271Sparky Re: Overcrowded Box! - 05/05/04 09:06 PM
Rizer,

Try 300.14. States 6" but makes the stipulation that if the opening to an outlet, junction, or switch popint is less than 200mm ( 8 in. ) in any direction, each conductor shall be long enough to extend at least 75mm ( 3 in ) outside the opening.

This is from the 2002 code by the way. Also in Wichita, KS. the city code (which most electricians have never even seen) does state Bk/Rd/Bl and B/O/Y color coding for 120/208 and 277/480 volt systems respectively. As far as the 120 anad 277 in the same box 300.3 (C)(1) covers that

271Sparky
Posted By: Lostazhell Re: Overcrowded Box! - 05/06/04 04:47 AM
Who wants to bet that all the conductors in the 2nd pic are attemptedly stuffed in red wirenuts :P (Bonus points if they held the wirenut on with duct tape!) [Linked Image]....

I counted a minimum of twelve - 14/2's or 12/2's entering that box..(with the real possibility of a couple 12/3's) 36 wires in a 4S shallow! [Linked Image]

Sven wrote
Quote
Shoulda written the following on that box lid:

"WARNING! CONTENTS UNDER PRESSURE!"

I wonder how big of a "C" clamp they used to get the blank on in the first place!

-Randy
Posted By: J parker Re: Overcrowded Box! - 05/17/04 06:42 AM
That is why the supply house was out of wire nuts!
Posted By: git r dun Re: Overcrowded Box! - 06/21/04 05:45 PM
The guy writes his own description of at least one of the violations on the cover. He knew black,red,blue is not typically use for 277v so he wrote a friendly disclaimer.

As for that attic box, that is absolutley incredible
Posted By: pauluk Re: Overcrowded Box! - 06/21/04 07:04 PM
Quote
The guy writes his own description of at least one of the violations on the cover. He knew black,red,blue is not typically use for 277v so he wrote a friendly disclaimer.
Black/red/blue might be typically used for 120/208 rather than 277/480, but I don't think such use actually violates any article of the NEC.
Posted By: e57 Re: Overcrowded Box! - 06/22/04 08:58 AM
As for the pic', I saw it a while back, and thought those were instructions for someone else to finish the job. Finish it they did, they over did it!

And, Pauluk, I believe you are correct. The only phase color in the NEC is orange. But most places will ammend, and mandate their own color codes. For instance here in San Francisco, we have purple high legs. And, I can't imagine the thought process behind it.
Posted By: Joe Tedesco Re: Overcrowded Box! - 06/22/04 10:38 AM
See the NEC Index [Color Code] for some mandatory color code rules:

Branch circuits, 210.4(D), 210.5

Conductors, 310.12, 504.80(C), 647.4(C)

Grounded conductor, 200.6

Grounding conductor, 250.119, 310.12(B), 400.23

Heating cables, 424.35

Higher voltage to ground Feeders, 215.8

Panelboards, 408.3(E)

Sensitive electronic equipment, 647.4(C)

Service-entrance conductors, 230.56

Missing: 110.15
Posted By: pauluk Re: Overcrowded Box! - 06/22/04 01:38 PM
210.4(D):
Quote
Identification of ungrounded conductors. Where more than one nominal voltage system exists within a building, each ungrounded conductor of a multiwire branch circuit, where accessible, shall be identified by phase and system. This means of identification shall be permitted to be by a separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means and shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard.
Ah... I guess that covers it. So this would be a violation of 210.4(D) unless black/red/blue was used consistently throughout the building for 277 and some other colors used for 120.

And I would imagine that a scribbled note on the box cover doesn't count as "other approved means," especially as it's unlikely to be repeated at the panelboard. [Linked Image]

As a matter of interest, what methods are considered acceptable othan the color-coded insulation, colored phase tape, or tags with appropriate legends on them?
Posted By: sparked Re: Overcrowded Box! - 06/22/04 04:06 PM
In addition to the overfill issue, the NM isnt supported within 12 inches of the box. I don't even know if it would be possible to fit that many wires on a 2x4...
Posted By: e57 Re: Overcrowded Box! - 06/23/04 12:57 AM
Joe, you got me there with 504.80(C), 647.4(C)! I just learned something! I like when that happens. (Seriously)

Grounds, neutrals, and high legs, those are all locked down. The light blue in 504.80, is a new one to me! And the heating cables, that's for the sheath of the cable for system identification, right?

The other ones you mentioned about phase arrangment, (ABC) and system/voltage identifcation, don't mention black, red, blue, or brown, orange yellow. We just know them to be that, as accepted pratice. I think it would be nice for the powers that be, to just come out and say it! [Linked Image]

Now, I'm not trying to start trouble. But switch legs, and travellers, shouldn't they be identified to the phase they're on? Futher still, I'm sure the count on fill, but do they count on derating?
Posted By: git r dun Re: Overcrowded Box! - 06/23/04 08:52 PM
Quote
Black/red/blue might be typically used for 120/208 rather than 277/480, but I don't think such use actually violates any article of the NEC.


I realize the use of black,red,blue for 277v does not nessecarly violate any code,but if 120v is already in the box and identified as black,red,blue, then using black,red,blue for 277v would be a violation
Posted By: Theelectrikid Re: Overcrowded Box! - 09/01/04 09:02 PM
Randy said that, "I wonder how big of a "C" clamp they used to get the blank on in the first place!" In the first picture it sure does look like they did! See the hole in the wall underneath the box???

[This message has been edited by Theelectrikid (edited 09-01-2004).]
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