Hi,
In my jurisdiction I am not allowed to do my own electrical, so I have had several "qualified" electricians visit and quote me on the extent and cost of the work required to bring an old gutted kitchen up to code, or better. To prepare myself to evaluate these quotes, I read the appropriate sections of the 2009 CEC. However, it appears that some electricians don't understand the CEC guidelines, or maybe the wording in the document is so ambiguous at times that even they (and myself) are confused by its lack of clarity. I retired after 40 years in a telecommunication job that required understanding highly technical installation and test documents, so electrical terminology is not new to me. However, I find the CEC document very difficult to follow at times.

Here is my understanding of the CEC in relation to the layout of my "new" galley style kitchen and how I think it should be upgraded. I would like some feedback on my understanding (or lack thereof) and my choices.

1/ Fridge - 15A breaker 14/2 wire - no other outlets connected. OK

2/Microwave (over-range) 20A breaker 20A T slot receptacle in cabinet above unit - 12/2 wire - no other outlets connected. (I couldn't find any rule clearly indicating the recommended/required circuit amperage in the CEC, but 20A seems to be the smartest choice.)

3/ GFCI 20A T slot receptacle(within 1m of sink) 20A breaker 12/2 wire. My understanding of the CEC is that a single 20A branch circuit for a kitchen counter-top area can connect to only two receptacles MAXIMUM. In my adjacent-to-sink situation, it looks like I can use a configuration with one GFCI receptacle(Line side connection) and one other 20A T slot non-GFCI (Load side connected off GFCI) receptacle/circuit. (This rule seems to cause the greatest amount of confusion.) Am I correct in interpreting the CEC this way? If so my plan would be to use two 20A T slot GFCI, one on each side of the sink with their loads connected to two non-GFCI 20A t-slot receptacles located above the counter-top across the kitchen. This brings the counter-top receptacles above code - all GFCI. It also eliminates hassles with 3-wire split receptacle arrangements and double pole breakers (which I probably can't get for my old congested panel anyway).

4/ 16" counter-top (left of stove). It appears this area should have its own single branch circuit (rule confusing in CEC - for me at least.) Again, since it is only a matter of time before the CEC requires all counter-top receptacles to be GFCI (like in the NEC) I would rather choose to have a 20A breaker 12/2 wire put in place. The choice is then mine whether to use a non-GFCI or GFCI receptacle at this time.

5/ Overhead lighting will be on the existing wiring.

6/ 30" electric range - wiring existing 8/3 wire - 40A breaker

7/ "Convenience" outlets and under-cabinet lighting - generally 15A. Some electricians said they would multiple from the 20A appliance receptacles to power these up. If I have already MAXED the GFCI set-up in 3/, only the receptacle in 4/ could be used. Is it acceptable to supply these kitchen convenience outlets from the counter-top supplies (assuming they are not MAXED?

Thanks.

Hi there,


In your first sentence, you pretty much de-value anyone that you think is of a lesser qualification than yourself.
If you were part of the trade that you are taking to task, you would probably know them Codes off by heart.
Sorry, but that is my personal feeling.

I would re check the GFCI zone for counter receptacles .
I dont know what would constitute a Convenience outlet in a kitchen unless it is for a clock receptacle or a fan for a gas range.

This is very close to a diy topic so beware if it get closed.

I guess maybe I should have used the word "licensed" instead of "qualified" - meaning that these people are not DIY freelancers, but tradesmen. My issue is not with the people but with the CEC which is confusing even to people who use it in their day to day occupation.

Mr Questions check your private messages.

Mr Q.

Sometimes it is good that untrained persons cannot do their own electrical work.
A few comments
You don't understand loading as illustrated by your circuit sizing for the microwave.
You call counter plugs in the kitchen convenience outlets and for the most part convenience outlets do not exist in a kitchen. In my mind convenience outlets are the plugs on general purpose circuits every 12 feet. All counter plugs are required to be appliance circuits so if you have 2 plugs there must be 2 circuits whether 3 wire #14 or 2 wire #12. GFCI protection within 1.5 meters of a sink etc. You cannot have more than 2 outlets on an appliance circuit so it you need more than 4 plugs in a kitchen you need another circuit for the fifth and another if a 7th was required.
Since it seems to be your intent to hire a qualified electrical contractor and you bracket this question in that fashion that I answer so you can better evaluate the bids. For an electrical contractor this is bread and butter and he better know this verbatim.
I expect you have been told this forum is for qualified persons and we are protective of that. Advice to a qualified person here is understood since we are not trying to provide installation instruction but support to people that have already had the training. The forum would likely close for liability reasons alone if we were trying to teach our craft here.

Enjoy the new kitchen. Granite is easy to live with and stainless looks good for years. I am not a decorator so it is only my opinion ;-)

It appears that when I posted on this site, I unwittingly entered the lion's den. My only purpose was to get a clear understanding of the CEC requirements, so that I can make an informed decision.

Mr Q - re your comments

1/ "You don't understand loading as illustrated by your circuit sizing for the microwave." To the contrary. I am aware that a 15A circuit has been the norm, but with the manufacture of larger over-range units, especially those with exhaust fans, the safe loading value of 80%(12A) on a 15A circuit may be exceeded. Although these units come equipped with what looks like a 15A plug, the installation manuals tell a different story. Since the current draw may be as high as 14A, in some cases, then I felt a 20A circuit SHOULD be provided. Some posts related to US sites state that 20A is now a requirement of the NEC, but I haven't been able to confirm, if that is factual. If so, it is likely the CEC will follow suite in a later issue.

2/"You call counter plugs in the kitchen convenience outlets and for the most part convenience outlets do not exist in a kitchen. In my mind convenience outlets are the plugs on general purpose circuits every 12 feet." I guess you are referring to my 7/. I was not referring to the counter plugs (aka receptacles)as convenience outlets but actually some extra receptacles in parts of the kitchen other than the counter area. My issue is that one electrician said he would multiple to them from the counter receptacles, which is a no-no if there are already two counter receptacles interconnected.

3/ "All counter plugs are required to be appliance circuits so if you have 2 plugs there must be 2 circuits whether 3 wire #14 or 2 wire #12. GFCI protection within 1.5 meters of a sink etc. You cannot have more than 2 outlets on an appliance circuit so it you need more than 4 plugs in a kitchen you need another circuit for the fifth and another if a 7th was required." Your comment confirms that you agree with my 3/ and 7/ in my original post i.e. max. of receptacle on an appliance branch circuit is two (maximum)

I would like to thank those who replied.

Mr.Q
No worries. It can get a little protective of DIY posts here. I get your point on Microwave appliances especially when a fan is added and maybe i need to look at these more closely.

Mikesh,
Mr.Q is correct about these OTR Microwaves.
In my own house when we did the kitchen, we installed one of these units. It came equipped with a 5-15P and I installed a dedicated 15A circuit. It wasn't until I read the instructions on how to mount the thing that I realized that the manufacturer states that it draws 13A.
Maybe an Inspector needs to ask why the CSA is approving the sale of appliances in Canada that are coming equipped with a 15A cord end and require more than 12 A.

Bruce

They don't expect that a microwave will normally be on high power for an hour at at time.

I asked a Guy that does product approvals and these appliances over 12 amps should have a sticker that states for household use or domestic use. TWH provided the clue the reduced wire size is like the #8 for a range at or under 12 KW being allowed to use an 8 kw demand in domestic use.
Most commercial appliances have no demand factor and I should expect a 20 amp t-slot plug if rated for continuous duty.

13a on a 15 amp cicuit should not be a problem. It is not a continuous use device so the 80% rule does not apply. Every hair dryer made would require 20amp plug if that was the case.

This is a good topic and good info, I keep forgetting to apply the continuous/non-continuous use part of the code.


If one is doing work in a kitchen, is one required to upgrade all existing receptacles near the sink to GFCI protection, or can they be left as-is if they were not part of what the customer wanted done?

For instance, can one just leave an existing duplex receptacle connected to its existing 14/3 circuit with no other changes? Reading this as I've written it out, it sounds really stupid to ask, but.. I'd like to know the proper way to do it. I'm an apprentice, have asked a few contractors about this and have got various answers, all different, such as:

a) You must install a 2 pole 15a GFCI breaker to protect that 14/3 circuit, the customer won't like the cost but oh well
b) Cap off the black of the 14/3 and hook the red up to a 15A GFCI receptacle, its not code but at least there's GFCI protection if the toaster ends up in the sink, disregard box fill issues
c) Open the wall up and fish a 12/2 in there, even though that wall was not originally to have any electrical work done to it. Incur extra cost for patching.
d) Leave it the way it is, it passed inspection (theoretically) when it was originally installed, perhaps put a new decora outlet on it but don't spend any more time than that. Any new outlets near the sink get put on a 12/2 & GFCI however.


(Not related to kitchens - are there any meetings of contractors/inspectors in the Vancouver area that would accept an apprentice who wants to listen? Would like to keep increasing my knowledge of the trade but am not really sure where to look..)

One of the basic principles of electrical installations is a code change in 2009 does not retroactively force upgrades to work done under a previous code. The original installation must be maintained and still adequate for the original purpose.
Some jurisdictions have upgrade policies and unless the place where your working has such a bylaw I would say you do not have to upgrade recpetacles that were approved under a previous code.
In my jurisdiction if the drywall comes off then the electrical must meet current requirements before the wall can be closed. So in your kitchen reno if they tear out the cabinets and change the tile on the wall I would not require you to Upgrade. Reconfigure the kitchen layout like move sinks, relocate the fridge or range and find the counter plugs don't even meet the original code then upgrades will happen. So if your 14-3 counter plugs are still correctly located You can leave them as installed. New plugs per current code.
Obviously when ever we find that new code requirements are more stringent is is pretty hard to understand why the plug to the right of the sink is GFCI protected on 12-2 with a t slot GFCI and the one on the other side is a split 15.

Dougwells, Mikesh, and Trumpy I admire and respect you guys on defending trade. Thank you .

Now, it is violation of code to use 15A recepticle as a feed trough the GFCI ( 20A) . You have to use the same AWG from panel to the last recepticle.
Exeption when use baseboard heating inder distance 7.5m ( you can use 14AWG instead 2AWG )





I am interested in the same thing still searching. I did 4 projects at school and member od school board, and meating new people I hope I will start working soon. This is exelent sourse, specially when we have people defending us. Not( yet) electricians, nor inspectors, but those related to trade people :)) tnx.

And I would sugest you if you let me, don't listen bad Electricians, Code is your passport.

Mersad...

One is not required to upgrade an existing installation if it passed code in the past, unless it is added to in the present. Then it is considered a new installation, because theoretically it becomes part of the Permit.
Check out BC Safety Authority website for the Electrical Regulations... on Contractors, FSRs, Permits etc.

Sure, that is to code, but an unnecessary cost to the customer. Personally I would feel bad about not giving the customer their choices. And that is an expensive breaker!
Not code, not legal, but it works. I wouldn't do it... so long as there is 'someone to catch me'.
And wire, and breaker, and receptacle, and labour. Say... $2.50/m + $20 + $25 + 2hr labour.
sounds good.

What makes you think that you wouldn't be accepted?

Inspector is there for YOU. And he LIKES THE CODE!!
Call him, ask him when he's in his office next... can you pop in and ask a few questions?...Are there any tech-talks being held soon?

Take an FSR code course. It is mandatory for taking the FSR exam, but when I went, there was everyone from 1st year apprentices to large company contractors attending, all together. A lot of good questions from everyone.
The apprentices where there for no reason except they wanted to be.

Put your questions up in this forum.



I think it's more HOW you look at what's already there.

Sometimes we don't know what to look for, cause we don't even know it's a possibility. We see what we expect to see. There came a point where I lost expectation, and started looking at what was really there... as a wider perspective. Then I found that I had to learn it all over again, in a new way.
Sometimes that keeps happening over and over again. The info doesn't change, but YOU do.
Is that vague enough?

It is nicely said. I would post this question if Ahickey does not mind.
I visit this forum every day and I think I will continue to do so for 0-0 time .