Any reliable ways to handle this one:

Customer calls and says they have static on the line when it rains. You get the call on a bright sunny day, NO STATIC, no visable entry of moisture, lines ring out fine, and clear, connections look great. You find nothing to warrant tearing the whole mess apart, and leave.

It rains again, customer calls, office sends you out on the next SUNNY DAY! Etc., etc.

Any advise, short of silencing the customer, or 're-arranging' the office?

I had this exact symptom at my old residence in SoCal, and it was Pacific Bell's problem. The aerial distribution cables were old and getting damaged by rodents.

You'll probably need to get the customer to help isolate the problem to either the inside wiring or the telco side. The next time the static occurs, have him open up the Network Termination Unit, isolate the inside wiring by unplugging the short cable with the modular plug, and connecting a known good telephone directly into the modular jack in the NTU. If the noise persists, it's a telco problem; if not, you won't have much choice but to inspect every connection at the premises.

This assumes that the NTU has the isolation/test jack. If it was installed or updated within the last 20 years or so, it does.

Incidentally, after I determined that the problem wasn't with my inside wiring, I wrote a letter of complaint to Pac Bell. Within a month they re-cabled the entire block and gave me the name and direct number of the cable plant manager in case of further problems. That was a high-quality organization.

John, I would do that, but what would you do if theres no static that day? If it's not doing it, how do you isolate it? There are ways using a SideKick, and been thinking of getting one for the shop, just don't know how. There are some other types of equipment too. Maybe someone has a really easy answer that I have over-looked all these years.

BTW, PacHell/SBC operaters are trained to always say "its an inside wiring problem". Something that I love to rub in when it's not. Like when I got the call for a dead phone line, customer calls PacHell, they say "inside wiring", I get there and the drop is in the street.

What I'm looking for is way to show up, CHARGE FOR IT, and say one way or the other.

Question is why is the customer calling you instead of the TELCO? Was the inside wiring installed by you and still under warranty? Most people automatically call the TELCO because they know it will cost them nothing. If the TELCO says the problem is with the wiring and not their problem THEN they part with a few bucks and call me, but they rarely do that first.

But I digress.

Anyway, in cases where there is static, hum or other noise, crosstalk or other problems and you know the installation, don't even bother going out there, call the TELCO. 99% of the time it's their fault, ESPECIALLY if the problem is static that goes away when it isn't raining.

-Hal

Hey Hal, knew you were there somewhere.

Yep, part of plant is mine, and some existing, typical for remodels.

I'm either the last guy there, and I get the blame, or PacHell say "Inside", they call me back, or often the call PacHell, they show up, find nothing, say its fixed, and customer calls me again!

Eventually, you show up on the day there's static on the line, isolate it to outside, jam a butt-set against the customers face, and say, "See, not my problem".

Sorry, I had one this morning, I'm still wound up...

... if theres no static that day? If it's not doing it, how do you isolate it? There are ways using a SideKick, and been thinking of getting one for the shop, just don't know how.

There is no way for you to isolate outside plant problems, not your job. You HAVE to be there when it's happening. Disconnect the inside wiring at the demarc and check the dialtone with a buttset then break dialtone and listen. If it's noisy call it in and leave. If there is no problem at the demarc start by disconnecting phones and checking jacks then wiring. You really don't need any fancy test equipment, maybe an ohm meter. Just keep disconnecting until the problem goes away. That's the only way I've done it and seen it done.

-Hal

Gotta stop typing when you are.

Yeah, there is always a lot of finger pointing. Sometimes the only way to resolve the problem is to be there when the tech is. Like I said, static and stuff like that when it rains is always the telco unless there is outside wiring or jacks after the demarc that can get wet.

-Hal

e57,

Um -- I obviously wasn't telling you anything you didn't already know. I apologize for stating the obvious.

As for the Sidekick, I don't think it will tell you anything useful unless the symptom is present (in which case your ears and a butt set will tell you the same thing for $1K less).

The bummer is that it's perfectly simple for the telco to isolate the IW during loop testing, because there's a function in the NTU to do exactly that. Hal is probably right that it's just unofficial policy to deny the problem until the customer gets squeaky enough.

In the case of the letter I wrote, it probably helped to compare (unfavorably) the quality of service to that of a third-world country. Or maybe it's that I addressed it to PacBell's CEO.

Sorry John, if I sounded off, but this stuff irritates the death out of me. Only posted it, because I want a magic bullet for this type of problem.

Anyway, welcome to the forums.... And sometimes stating the obvious need to be said.

Back on the whine train... There needs to be a tool out there somewhere, or class or something, that will allow you to 'wave your hand over it', and allow you to say, "It's there!" $1000, OK! Sign me up... $2000, still think about it. Because IT WOULD PAY FOR ITSELF IN WASTED TIME. Doh, getting wound up again.

OK, I'm back... Anyway, be it water, for the rare occassions I have my arm twisted to run anything outside, or for that matter other stupid intermitant static problems where this type of finger pointing happens between inside (Me), and outside. (Telco - haven't come up with any derogitory terms from SBC yet - but need one!) 90% of the time it's outside, its just the path you need to take to get them out of your hair is long and thorny. There's got to be a better way!

I'd go with Hal's suggestion. The most practical way is to wait until the problem reappears, then disconnect at the network interface and connect a phone direct to the incoming line (either your butt set or get the owner to plug in a regular phone if he's doing it when you're not there). If you still get noise, then the problem is on the TelCo side.

Here in Britain we can dial a test number which runs an automatic routiner on the line, looking for basic faults such as low-resistance to ground etc. It doesn't always identify every fault, but in a large number of cases of noisy lines you can bet that the tester will come back with a result which indicates it's TelCo plant problems.

Possibly disconnect the inside wiring, unplug the phones/equipment and run an insulation test? If the damp isn't enough to cause static, it still could be enough to show nasty low resistance with 200+ volts from a tester.

It may not be a magic bullet but I have a second RJ11 just inside the house from the Dmark where I can test without going outside. The homeowner might be more likely to do that. I also homerun all of my phone wires to a 66 block with bridging clips for each run but that may be too much for most of your jobs.

Here in Britain we can dial a test number which runs an automatic routiner on the line, looking for basic faults such as low-resistance to ground etc. It doesn't always identify every fault, but in a large number of cases of noisy lines you can bet that the tester will come back with a result which indicates it's TelCo plant problems.

That can be done here too. Unless you are a TELCO tech you call repair (from another line) and they will run the test. Not always conclusive especially if the fault is close to the subscriber.

Possibly disconnect the inside wiring, unplug the phones/equipment and run an insulation test? If the damp isn't enough to cause static, it still could be enough to show nasty low resistance with 200+ volts from a tester.

Don't know that I would want 200+ volts on that wiring or the jacks!

It may not be a magic bullet but I have a second RJ11 just inside the house from the Dmark where I can test without going outside. The homeowner might be more likely to do that.

Only problem with that is it is after the demarc. Most current demarcs incorporate a function that disconnects the wiring after it when you insert a plug into its test jack. This eliminates all inside wiring problems as well as phones off hook from influencing your test. If you use the inside jack to test it's just another jack bridged across the line and will have the same problems as all the others.

I also homerun all of my phone wires to a 66 block with bridging clips for each run but that may be too much for most of your jobs.

Very good. That's the way they allways should be done.

-Hal

That IW quad or CAT3 is rated at 300 volts, and the actual breakdown voltage is much higher. The telco's test gear applies up to +/- 275 volts to probe the "signature" of various self-test devices in the loop plant, so 200 volts is no big deal, even with telephone sets connected.

None of which helps if the problem is on the telco side.

Having the test jack indoors is a nice touch, especially when it's raining. If it's an RJ31 "alarm" jack instead of an RJ11, it can also be wired to disconnect the rest of the premises when a test set is plugged in. It's still past the demarc, though, so it can't completely vindicate the IW.

This may be a long shot but where I am when we have a person complaining of static on their line it is a bad handset cord 99% of the time. This is in a PBX environment so it is a totally different animal than residential telephony, but it may be worth a shot.

First off, thanks for hearing my gripe!

As for test numbers/lines, SBC has them, but they keep them top secret. (Clean line, modulated tones, ring back, etc.) You have to find a real friendly phone guy to let you have one. They give them out in groups so they can track who has them, and change them every few months. Yesturday, I used a "borrowed" clean line number. (Still won't help, if not happening right then.)

"I also homerun all of my phone wires to a 66 block with bridging clips for each run but that may be too much for most of your jobs."

"Very good. That's the way they allways should be done."Depending on the install, it's 66, or 110. This one is a 110, and although it makes a great connection method, and in some cases is fantastic if your customer re-purposes lines on you, like many of mine do, it's great. But troublestooting can be a PITA!

As for higher voltages, that's essentially what a sidekick does with with a signal +/or capacitive charge in a leakage or stress test. Kind of like a megohmeter for phone lines.
http://www.calcentron.com/Pages/tempo/tempo_telco_instruments.htm

Anyway, I have other toys to spot faults, like TDR, but likewise, you can't spot it if its not there when you are. The big problem is that all of these trips cost mulla, and can't charge for them if nothing is found. (Well, I could, but the boss won't, and the 2 - 3 of these a year add up.) It's gonna come down that these need to be taken care of while it's happening, but that screws up schedules. Mine at least.

The telco's test gear applies up to +/- 275 volts to probe the "signature" of various self-test devices in the loop plant

Well, I do know that OUR secondary protectors clamp at 235 volts and have sneak current fuses. So if they were applying that kind of voltage both they and we would know about it.

I also think that that kind of voltage would pose a real danger to any tech since they would not expect anything higher than ring voltage or maybe an open carrier circuit voltage. So I kind of doubt this test method would be used except under strictly supervised conditions if you are correct.

-Hal

Hal,

As I recall, the current during the HV test is intentionally limited to a few mA, and the duration is less than one second, so it's much safer than ringer power.

(Surprisingly, IEC safety standard EN60950 allows essentially unlimited voltage for remote power feeding over telecom pairs as long as the current is limited to 60 mA. I still wouldn't want to brush against it!)

The voltage is also balanced, so it doesn't exceed +/- 137.5 on each side with respect to ground, which is well below the threshold of solid-state protectors.

John, interesting you should mention that standard. When I was in Ohio we had an interesting Digital multiplexer box on the house, providing 2 lines over one pair, when I measured the input voltage, I was amazed to find over 270 volts from the exchange pair
The reason we were 'fiddling' was to get the phone co to remove it so we could get ADSL, but that level of voltage scared me.

270 volts (+/- 135 volts line-to-ground) is very common in North America for repeaters and pair-gain devices like you mentioned, because no special current limiting is required when each line is under 140 volts. Above 140, a sort of "D.C. GFCI" is required that limits the current to 25 mA line-to-ground and 60 mA line-to-line.

I know you'll be pleased to know that those limits have been determined to be "...unlikely to cause organic damage or harmful physiological effects."

(I'm not gonna touch it -- let's get Mikey!)

Hal, my inside test jack is in series with the Dmark so the 66 block plugs into the test jack.
That short piece of "my" wire may still be at fault but it is pretty easy to look at physically. This one is flooded, direct burial cable. Pretty good stuff. It is just a sanity check for me that I can test in my skivvies.

"...unlikely to cause organic damage or harmful physiological effects."

YES!