Ah, the joys of home ownership. To remind all, I have been living in, and fixing up, a $6000 house for the past year. As such, I get to look for, and deal with, contractors.

As an electrician, and later as a very small, short-lived contractor, I saw work from one viewpoint. Now, as the customer, I get to see the other side of the coin.

My experiences with getting the windows replaced should shed some light on the entire topic, and provide us with plenty of tangents for discussion.

First off is the matter of price- and what the contractor adds to the job. I've seen many folks attempt to replace windows themselves. Let's see: $80 at Lowes, $350 from a window contractor ... how hard can it be? Well, I've seen many such DIY efforts become horror stories. Maybe the simple fact that it took a two-man professional crew half a day to replace four windows suggests that there's more to this job than meets the eye.

Point to ponder: How do YOU get across to the customer the efforts you will put into the job? How do you justify a price four times the raw material cost?

I have worked with two different window companies. Let's look at some of the differences in their approaches:

One firm seemed totally amazed that an actual customer walked in the door. The owner even seemed confused. They measured, they did not co-ordinate scheduling with me, and the paperwork was sloppy. It almost seemed as if they forgot to ask for the second/final payment.

The second firm is a franchise, and there's no doubt this guy is going by the book. Positive-theme to the advertising ("Simply the best ... for less," and "We don't just stand by our product, we stand on it!"). Prompt call-back. Timely follow-up call.

My point her is: Do you seem organized, positive, and enthusiastic to your customers? Or, does the customer wonder if they interrupted Grumpy's nap when they called?

The first contractor's response was "OK, we'll get you windows." As an afterthought, he called back to verify the color choice (good thing, as he had guessed wrong). At no point was I advised as to what sort of windows were being provided, or what choices I might have.

The second guy came out, measured, then produced a sample window. He showed off the various features. As an aside, he produced a brochure that made clear the other offerings he had. (BTW, the demo window was upscale, but not the top of his line).

The point here is: Do you inform your customer of the different possible solutions, and bring them into the decision making process?

Now ... a word about the franchise operation ... thanks to the internet, I had no problem finding all manner of negative posts about the chain. Reading the posts, it was clear that the folks either were completely clueless (and would never be happy), or were preyed upon by imposters. It's worth remembering that everyone fears the first transaction.

Now, let the discussion begin ....

The short answer is bad contractors make good contractors look bad. I had such bad experiences with contractors that I decided I would do it all myself. After all I can screw something up cheaper than the bozos I was hiring.

It all changed when my wife got into the building business and found out who the good contractors are. Now she calls a guy who comes over and does things a whole lot better than I could and when I plug in the cost of my screw ups, it works out cheaper. I still do a lot of things myself but I also know when to make the call.

I do think the small residential contractor has the biggest problem because if he is the cheapest, he will be far from the best and that only makes the reputation of all contractors suffer. The best also look for steady work and reasonable expectations from the customer so they avoid the yellow pages work or they are so far out of whack from the cheapest guy out there they don't get the jobs. The trick is convincing the customer, you get what you pay for.
Again this may be more of a word of mouth deal than advertising. Do a good job and hope the customer tells all of his friends. That is a tough business model.

One thing comes to mind on this at the moment.

A real estate company that I did a lot of work for over 25+ years had a plaque in the presidents office.
"You get what you pay for!", and another that said .."THe lowest price may not be the best price".

This was a family business for over 110 years at the time. They used a 'team' of regular contractors, never 'looking' for bargain work, always first class.
And their properties reflected the 'Class A' name.

That sais, one day the pres decided to give this young excavator/mason a shot at a mid-size job, as he was $18k lower than the 'team' guy. Long disaster short, the 'new' guy had no clue what he was expected to do, let alone what was in the contract & spec. All said & done (without 1000 words of woe) the job was taken over by the 'team' guy...and it only wound up $11k over budget due to the mess the 'new' guy left.

"You do get what ya pay for"

I built a reputation as an EC by hard work, quality, and a lot of explanation to the clients.

The SINGLE biggest issue that keeps popping up with Resi Contracting is the wide spread belief that installing this or that shouldn't come to all that much money -- 'cause the DIY shows reveal just how easy it all is.

Lost upon the public is that the camera lies -- a LOT. Other than a handful of shows ( Holmes on Homes ... ) the edits eliminate all boners/ injuries and frustrations.

They also never have design/ permitting issues. ( As IF )

Back in the real world -- plenty of time is spent on just such tedium.

As you can imagine, the typical homeowner never imagines that her own SLOW decision tree is causing the cost of her project to explode.

In short, it is necessary to recover all of these non-installation events just to break even.

And this is why newbies usually blow up within their first year. Until they've faced it - it's hard to believe just how much paper-time they must spend.

I think that "Renovation Realities" is a great selling tool for the business.
Every episode some guy who shouldn't be allowed around a hammer undertakes some major project that is well outside of his knowledge base.

There's always sparks flying and water spraying; one episode had a guy spend 2 days trying to do his plumbing only to give up and hire a professional who ripped his stuff out and completely redid the job (right) in about 3 hours.

You get what you pay for.
There's a distinct disadvantage to 'cheap' and 'free'.

It was not my intent to have another thread where we knash our teeth over the idiocy of the CUSStomer.

Rather, I would like to see a discussion of how we present ourselves, how we address the concerns customers have. I used the window guys as examples, simply because the concerns are the same no matter what.

For example .... now here was a real eye-opener for me ...
The second contractors' price came down a LOT, (to $1000, from $1400) once it was clear that his 'standard' price included several 'extras' that I neither needed or wanted. Less work for him, less expense for me.

That brings up another 'deal making' tool in the second guys' toolbox: financing. His website provided a link to a major bank, where customers could apply for a loan. The contractors' telephone 'hold' message also made mention of this, and the very attractive terms of that financing. This can make the difference ... especially when a job is time-sensitive and the money just a bit lagging.

In salesmanship, it's a fine line between being 'on the ball' and being 'pushy.' I think we need to study these franchise operations, and learn from them.

i draw pictures on the 'puter for them

sorts who don't know jack about a trade appreciate seeing what s/he is buying as opposed to some long winded explanation

~S~

"The prospect base treats all licensed electricians as if they were but kernels of rice in the bag -- all the same.
"

So said Tesla in another thread. He's not completely off base.

Yet, when I called out the various window guys, such a thought was not the first thought in my mind. Rather, I knew I was ignorant - not just as to the wnidows themselves, but also as to what each company had to offer.

Guys, this first contact is your opportunity to tell the customer what you have to offer. In this reagrd, the second firm did a much better job than the first guy. The first firm simply said 'our windows will cost you $X." The second firm said 'here's our most popular window ... there are others ... and here are the various upgrades we offer at additional cost.'

The first guy just looked at things and gave a price. The second guy walked me around and pointed out things I could do to reduce the cost of installation. For example, I could take down the storm windows myself, and save a few $$$.

Look, when the various salesmen arrive, I am "all ears." I want to hear what they have to say, and am curious as to what they have to offer. Yes, I have a pretty clear idea of what I want .... but I'm also open to learning something new.

Oddly enough, the sales pitch that is poorly received is the one where I am immediately assured "we can do anything you want, and very cheaply.' Please- at least listen to my request and look at the job before making that sort of assurance.

A roofing contractor made a good impression when he freely admitted that his price would not be the cheapest. He followed by explaining what he did that differed from the other guys- all good things, to my mind. He gave me reasons to hire him.

Reno:
On the subject and not electrical.

Doing some work around my house, I called a few contractors. Out of three that I called to install prefinished hardwood flooring, only one responded. He wanted the dimensions of the area, and gave me a 'ballpark' $$ over the phone. The other two never called back. Needless to say, I learned how to install 3/4" hardwood!

Two guys showed up for the roof job. One (well dressed) salesman type. He looked up, wrote an estimate, handed it to me & walked away. The other guy was a 'roofer'. He went up on the roof, measured, looked around, made notes and said 'estimate in your mailbox the next day'. He also presented a choice of shingles; suggested an attic power fan, and took time to explain how he (& crew) would do the job. He got the job; showed up as promised, did the work & passed inspection. He also installed (but not wired) the attic fan, and new vent. I hired him based on the presentation, and the reccomendation of a neighbor.

This Thread touches on an Item I have not been placing enough importance on - First Impressions; What _OVERALL BENEFITS_ Differs Us (the ECs I work for) from the Others (the remaining bidders).

As of late 2009, I have been working for (3) separate ECs, typically performing Electrical Design, Engineering and Project Management on Design-Build type Projects, and at times performing P.M. and misc. Consultant tasks on Design-Bid-Build Projects.

For each of these ECs, it is becoming increasingly difficult to perform proper Electrical Design / Engineering Services, as the "Push" is typically to have the Architects
"Throw Together Some Electrical Plans"
- almost always cobbled together by some newbee CAD Drafstperson, because the Plans
"Are Only Needed To Pass Plancheck".

Only after endless trouble, the request for Consultation comes along; by this time, things are extremely difficult to rectify.

If I learn the Skills necessary to present the Overall / Long-Term Benefits of the Electrical Design-Build Projects to be done completely by the EC, this would save time, money, labor, frustration, Plancheck issues, Permit issues, Inspection issues, Coordination issues, etc....

Seriously, my Career as a Design-Build Engineer / Project Manager is rapidly coming to an end - as more Clients have been convinced that an entrance level CAD Grunt can do the same thing I can, but "Cheaper".
"Cheaper" being described as only the content of Printed Plans (outlets shown here & there...looks pretty!).

The actual Engineering work + Management is never included as a package to the Clients, so it _APPEARS_ as if the total Electrical Design part is 50% lower than what my Company(s) bid at; whereas, in fact, the cost at Proposal is more like 500% of our Bid, and will end up being more in the range of 2500%+ higher, just prior to Final Commissioning.

I like to discuss things with People, and really enjoy direct Consultations with a Prospective Client, however I need to be able to explain things in a more Personable matter, in order for "Non-Engineer People" (read: People with actual lives...) to grasp the criteria involved.

Giving a concise response to a statement such as:
"I was told that I should run my Lights at 220, as this will save half the power"
becomes somewhat difficult to debunk, especially when the source of information comes from a Friend or Relative.

So, for best 1st impressions, both my Salesmanship (not high pressure, but Brian Tracy type salesmanship), and my Outfit (professional casual), need extreme makeovers!

-- Scott

Scott:

To a degree, I actually 'see' what you are talking about, with the quality of the plans submitted for review. As we are supposed to be in a 'slow' time, one may think the 'paper' would come in for review well prepared. WRONG, it seems that the 'paper' is getting worse. Even the small resi solar installs come in half prepared, and with dumb errors. (Three phase solar output into a resi panel)

I think I insulted one of the submittal people today by referring to their drawings as 'cartoons; not ready for the Sunday comics'!! (Tuesday rant)

I guess the entry level CAD jockeys are at it here also.

Well there's plenty of customers who haven't gotta handle on what they want in the first place

plenty who are operating on a 'what if' dependent scenario as well

this occurs up my way frequently due to lack of any official plan review

so here's the fun part, the EC (et all C's) get to follow one of two avenues

#1 usually includes a lotta design build legwork interfacing the customers wants and needs with the rest of the physical universe's doctrines

#2 would be spitting out #1 fast & loose on one's feet walking through the prospective job on the spot

either way, one is investing one's time in creating a level of committment , be it verbal or written

so the thing i look for before even going down these avenues is if the job's even in the realm of reality to begin with (i.e., i just bought my 3ph windmill, and need a $$$ to hook it up to my 1ph home)



~S~

~s~:

On occasion, the best intentions, along with the best preparations and presentations do fall on deaf ears, or are lost to the 'other guy'. Sometimes, after the 'other guy' hears of your number!!

I have had my estimates passed on to "the other guy" who uses them as a shopping list to steal the job away from me. So now I just give a number on a paper, and what i will do for that amount, no more detail until I have the job. Nothing like spending half a day doing a take-off for someone else!

I hear you, Jimmie.

We had a newbie who would give out her estimates in such great detail (including sketches and dimensions) that the Owner would take it and just pass it along to a cheaper guy to use as 'detailed plans'.
She never learned her lesson; when I left that firm she was still giving out these fantasically detailed estimates and never figured out why she never was able to get anyone to hire us to do the work.

The estimate is the estimate...once you have the job in hand you can pull out the detailed sheet and use it for the Contract.

I can top that...

CraigsList had a post requesting a Master Mason...

Who was expected to teach his craft to a noob...

Who wanted to erect only two natural stone pillars from local rock.

I'll bet he had hundreds of responses to that one.

/sarc

Well, the drama continues- or is it a soap opera? This time, it's the heating trade.

(BTW, the second guys put in their windows, no muss, no fuss - though they did attempt to deliver/install without the notice I needed at my end).

While the weather was still nice, I had started trying to get my furnace going. A week of nice weather was frittered away by one 'highly recommended' guy being 'too busy.'

I looked at the thing myself, and I could see what was broke. My problem is that I'm at work when the parts house- an hour away- is open. So, I call another guy, providing him with the part number in advance.

He did come, though without the part. He did get the thing working, for one night, anyway. Then the 40 degree nights arrived. Now this guy is 'too busy.'

In the meantime, the plumbers -who were not 'too busy'- came out and fixed a gas leak that had developed in my water heater line. And we wonder why they make money ...

Well, the internet is a wonderful thing; I was able to learn that the part I needed was quite readily available. I made the time to get to the parts house just before closing time.

Now came what I ought to call the "Negative Ballet." That's where the friendly counter clerk -soon to be joined by someone from the back office - starts squirming as they say things like "don't have it, can't get it, you need to bring it in, a picture won't work ... HEY- that's a clear picture, I can read the number, why, we have a shelf of those!"

Part on the counter, then the apology starts ... we only sell to the trade .... is that a local license? By golly, we can sell it to you after all ...

Now ... for the readers of this thread ... doesn't it seem to you like these several parties were trying awfully hard to chase business away?

Does your 'front office' string folks along?
Do you arrive unprepared?
Do you 'leave well enough alone,' even when the customer has made it clear he's "sold" already?
Is your first reaction to a question "no?"

Simply put, the customer needs something DONE. In practical terms, that meant I was not willing to tolerate very many chilly nights before the issue was addressed.

Let's look at that first service call. Billing: $80. Not bad. Yet, had the man brought the $120 valve with him, he could have easily charged me $300.

I'll need to replace the furnace, almost for certain, when I get the air conditioning installed. I asked the man for a price. He has seen the job. Why am I still waiting for a price a week later?

So, we need to ask ourselves whether WE are chasing business away.

Reno:
What you are alluding to is akin to a new resi (SFD) failing final inspection for an incorrectly wired GFI, or some other 'dumb' item that the EC should have discovered when HE walked thru the house prior to final.

That said, the 'service' providers here in NJ are not a whole lot better than what you have. Seems like the only ones that do answer the phone and actually respond are 'Plumbers'. What the heck!

As this adventure continues ... yesterday I sought out some A/C guys. This revealed a few glitches ...

Company "A" was referred by a manufacturers' site. The phone number went to a restaurant. OOPS. Contact failed.

Company "B" has a web site - but NO email!! I still have not got around to contacting them.

Company "C" has an e-mail contact on their web site. They've already responded, and will send an estimator next week.

Now ... if you were setting the odds ... what chance do you think each of the above have of getting the job?

Now, look at YOUR business. Do you come up in a 'google' search? Is the contact information accurate? Can people get ahold of you?

I also have some comments as to phone manners:

There is a LOT to be said for having a professional female voice answer the phone with "Acme Electric." It's not nearly so good having the principal answer with "This is Joe" from atop a ladder. Even worse is for the phone to ring and ring- to a generic voicemail.

I educate my customers and let them know that I know my stuff, and there is no doubt about that, and that my prices are high b/c I'm not gonna goof up their project. I quickly become a trusted opinion in their mind, show them their options, tell them which option I think is best for them and why, and then 9 times out of 10 I get the job. PEOPLE WANT TO BE PERSUADED. They want to be sold.

The Saga continues ....

Task: Getting windows installed. Contractor "A" left the old windows at the curb for the next trash pick-up. Contractor "W" took the trash away. Guess which left a better impression? (I'm thinking of the times I left old service masts for the customer to deal with ... shame on me!)

Task: Getting air conditioning quotes. Not intending to 'call every name in the book,' but .... the first guy was completely non-responsive (no return call), the next too never did find time to come out to see the job, the next several .... well, it sounded like my call interrupted either their afternoon nap, or a good time at the local bar. One guy had a web site but no e-mail, and did not return calls. Mind you, ALL of these guys had real licenses and Yellow Page ads.

So far, I've had ONE response .... and his price is double the most expensive 'guess' I can make. Remember, I have a pretty good idea of the equipment costs, labor involved, and shop rates.

I dropped in on two of the larger shops yesterday. One is supposed to come out today, and the other asked for my to prepare a sketch, etc., for their review before they come out.

Meanwhile, various folks have urged me to approach an unlicensed co-worker who does 'side work' to circumvent various court orders. It amazes me that I seem to be the only one who sees anything wrong with that 'solution.' Good heavens, I don't pay hundreds of dollars every year to keep MY licenses current- just to hire some pretender!

Oddly enough, one of the HVAC contractors I met yesterday is actually an EC ... but also has the HVAC licenses. There might be some merit to that idea, for many of us.

During this quest, I've learned quite a bit about the 'technical' side of things. Short version: get ready to see a lot more VFD's, multi-speed motors, and fancy controls in household equipment.

On the topic of costs .... while I've made it plain that I'm looking for a BETTER solution, rather than 'the cheapest possible' solution, I've encountered some resistance from folks. They are so accustomed to assuming I'm just being 'cheap' that they can't break out of their ruts.

Nor, it seems, are they accustomed to looking at the 'big picture.' While a 'conventional' air conditioner might cost a lot less than a 'mini-split' system, that quick comparison does not take into account the other costs (furnace replacement, ductwork) or the zone control advantages of the mini-split.

So far, none have made the slightest effort to 'upsell' me to a more efficient unit. It's as if they've given up.

The moral is: when someone asks for your professional opinion, think about how you can present them with a few choices. Set the stage for them to say 'yes,' rather than sowing the seeds of distrust by telling them too little.

Contractor 'W' is making the right impression IMHO.
If everyone does the same work, all you can do to stand above the crowd is keep your promises, work neater and leave the customer satisfied and happy to pay the bill. Sometimes it's just going out of the way to do an occasional 2 minute job for free while you're there instead of making a major production of "that wasn't included in the quote".

I remember seeing a Plumbing Contractor on a 'This Old House' type show where all their employees wore coveralls and booties. They didn't leave the job until everything was cleaned...they even had their own vacuums and brooms on the truck. Something tells me that there was a line to hire that firm to work in your house.

Cleaning up is important in resi & small 1 trade comm type jobs. Leaving construction debris (windows) is a major 'no-no' in a lot of towns, where there is a contractor involved.

As to your quest for an HVAC contractor, IF you were around here, I have a personal friend who would get to you, no question. And, he is fair with $$$ and does excellent work.

As to HVAC and ECs, there are quite a few that have electrical contracting lic. here, as a Lic. EC is required for AC install or replacements. One in particular does HVAC, Electrical, & Plumbing and has Elec, Plumb, & HI licences. Techs all wear white shirts, blue pants, and 'booties'!! He gets top $$, and guarantees results within 24 hours, or it's 'free'!

A few advertise with emphisis on 'clean'. These are mostly 'big' shops.