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Posted By: Niko what would you respond? - 06/02/10 04:44 AM
background on the project: 1200 sqft game room addition being built by a handyman.


Customer: My handyman thinks that the price you have given me for the electrical is too high.

My comment: it is too high compare to what?

customer: well he says it is too high.

my comment: I will call you back with a different quote.

how would you have reacted or responded?

Thanks.

Posted By: jdevlin Re: what would you respond? - 06/02/10 02:33 PM
If the quote was acurrate then tell him that's the quote. He doesn't have to accept it. He can get someone else.

Some people always try to get a better price no matter how good the deal is. Maybe review it and come back with an even higher quote.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: what would you respond? - 06/02/10 02:56 PM
My "quotes" were always "FIRM" & "FINAL", especially in the situation of a handyman being involved.

Posted By: Jim M Re: what would you respond? - 06/03/10 01:36 AM
Who is the handyman to judge your price? What qualifies them to know your cost of doing business?
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: what would you respond? - 06/03/10 03:03 AM
I would venture a guess that the 'handyman' also does 'lectric wirin'. He now knows what a pro wants to do the job & he can do it a lot cheaper!

Posted By: Obsaleet Re: what would you respond? - 06/03/10 03:30 AM
I would tell them that is the price. I would next ask so what does the Handyman plan on doing? Does he have a permit? Liscense? Insurance? I personally would charge more to deal with the handyman. Might be a sign to cut and run. Its your call, are they pushing hard?
Posted By: Niko Re: what would you respond? - 06/03/10 07:50 AM
I held my self back and i didn't respond in a bad tone. Depending on the client i sometimes adjust the price.

I will stay firm on this one. I think the client is testing me to see if they will get the price for lower. I don't mind if the client wants to negotiate, but in this case it is a different story.

Thank you all for your replies.
Posted By: petey_c Re: what would you respond? - 06/03/10 01:28 PM
niko, If you think your price is fair, don't budge. I agree with HotLine1, the handyman is looking for more money in his own pocket. Were any permits pulled?
Posted By: Niko Re: what would you respond? - 06/03/10 10:49 PM
permits are not pulled, (customers choice) but the handyman is doing a good job, (as far as i can tell) all looks good.

i will let you know what happens.
Posted By: Tesla Re: what would you respond? - 06/04/10 12:57 AM
Sounds like fishing for price information...

Free-riding again...

With a handiman in the loop there was no prospect that you'd get such a basic job -- especially when the addition will occur without a permit.

In my jurisdiction, now that times are slow, the AHJ LOVES to cite un-permitted construction. Typically the handiman is an unlicensed GC.

Game logic may dictate that it's better to have this critter spanked -- and sidelined -- versus staying quiet.

The customer-prospect has zero value: you'll never see a dime out of him.

The construction trade is too crowded right now.

Do you want to survive or be part of the food chain?

Posted By: HotLine1 Re: what would you respond? - 06/04/10 02:00 AM
The 'work with no permit' situation here is $2000.00.

I had three (3) within the last 2 weeks, one commercial, 2 residential.

Niko, I have to ask you, what are the consequences in your area for work without permits?
Posted By: NORCAL Re: what would you respond? - 06/04/10 04:35 AM
The "handyman" is also contracting w/o a lic. since the CSLB defines a job over $500.00 as needing a lic. & breaking it down to a whole bunch of 500 dollar jobs (labor & materials) does not pass the test, per the Contractors State License Board (CSLB).
Posted By: Tesla Re: what would you respond? - 06/04/10 08:11 AM
Campbell is in Silicon Valley....

i.e. THERE IS NO WAY that this clown is getting his 1200sf for less than $500.00...

Which means he needs a permit.

Posted By: Niko Re: what would you respond? - 06/04/10 08:16 AM
John, i don't know what the fine is for unpermited work. as NORCAL mentioned the CSLB (contractor state license board) does limit what the handyman can charge without a license.

Starting Jan. 1, those caught contracting in California without a license for the first time will face six months in jail or a fine of up to $5,000 because of a new law that will take affect. Right now the offense is only considered a misdemeanor with no set jail time or penalties.
Posted By: Trumpy Re: what would you respond? - 06/04/10 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by Niko

Starting Jan. 1, those caught contracting in California without a license for the first time will face six months in jail or a fine of up to $5,000 because of a new law that will take effect.

Well, that is a step in the right direction. clap

Listen guys,
At the end of the day, there is no way that a qualified and licenced electrician should have to compete with Handy Harry, just because he knows a little bit about electrical work.
I'm pretty sure I didn't do my time and pass exams to be under-cut by some clown that thinks they can do this sort of work.
If they were any good at it, they would have passed the exam to get qualified and they would be pulling a permit on their jobs.
This sort of thing really winds me up, the playing field isn't level until you have everyone walking the same walk.
GRRRR.
Posted By: wire_twister Re: what would you respond? - 06/04/10 12:40 PM
I agree Mike, in my hometown we have to pull electrical permits whenever the POCO is involved, meaning new work/ service upgrade etc. Problem is politics comes to play, we got a new inspector a few years ago( small town we only have one) and he was ready to get everybody in line. Was told by the mayor after his first case of no license " that guy has been doing his own work for years, now back off and let him make a living" The guy is a general contractor, and his own work consists of wiring everything he builds with little or no reguard for the code. I guess it is all about who you know.
Posted By: renosteinke Re: what would you respond? - 06/05/10 03:35 PM
It's quite simple, the content of what you need to say ... the hard part is minding your manners as you do so, and making the sale.

The short form is: My price is my price, I really don't care what anyone else has to say about it, and if you can get it cheaper elsewhere - do it!

Yet, this is an opportunity for you to stress your experience and qualifications; to explain what all is involved (it's never just 'running some wire!'). As I've suggested before here, look to HGTV shows like "Holmes on Homes" and "Tough as Nails" to see some master salesmanship at work.

Finally, if the situation is turning ugly, this is an opportunity to 'discover something you overlooked' and RAISE your price - to cover the agrivation factor.

"You can always count on Reno to offer some brothel tested advice" laugh
Posted By: homerjones Re: what would you respond? - 06/11/10 02:40 AM
personally, i would report the handyman to the authorities. too many of these clown's playing electrician. i went through the same thing year's ago and got out partly because of it. and don't miss it. i still see handyman (i know how to wire job's)and they are a mess to clean up afterward's.
Posted By: mikesh Re: what would you respond? - 06/15/10 11:11 PM
Nico
43% of contractors at or below the break even point in their pricing. Some are good trades people but all are bad businessmen. You need to have a good business plan that includes a retirement strategy and remuneration that makes working for yourself a good deal. I know too many contractors that work for less than they earned working for someone else. If your prices are reflective of that plan then you gave the right price. The race to the lowest price is a race to poverty not independance and a comfortable retirement.
I have never seen an industry like the electrical trade where highly skilled and inteligent people constantly try to undercut themselves like we do. Very few electrical contractors work at selling more but most work to take the wire out of a house. Buy cheaper fixtures or lower quality outlets.
I once read of an electrical contractor that charged 275.00 an hour and had a personal income over 300k per year. He lost 75% of his customers and probably 80% of his headaches. He will have a very nice retirement and a few but happy customers. He is a good business man but he was not an electrician. He hired those.
The secret is get confident in your pricing and check it against your goals then stick to it.

A house can be minimally wired at 1 price and fully wired for all the contingencies and bells and whistles for 3 times as much. Which job is more likely to earn you a buck?
Posted By: gfretwell Re: what would you respond? - 06/15/10 11:32 PM
I blame the consumer for some of that. For some reason the whole country has gone on a WalMart binge where a good price is better than good quality. I do think it is worth trying to explain why a quality product costs more because it is worth more.
Posted By: Tesla Re: what would you respond? - 06/16/10 12:47 AM
The pitch I make is that the labor cost to properly configure, measure and install the electrical system is ALWAYS related to the talent and skill of the crew.

Lowball bids mean that the other EC is using green troops prone to error and not ready for prime time.

There are essentially no buying advantages for materials between similarly sized electrical contractors. And while the really big operators do get volume breaks -- they have the fattest overhead -- and a small job is always given to their unproven troops.

Yes, illegal immigrants are running around town pitching handyman skills. By definition, anyone hiring them is TOTALLY on the hook if they get injured -- and they get injured on the job five times as often as natives. OSHA is an alien concept to them -- and whether they're Russians or Mexicans there's no doubt that they've got guts and nerve.
No need for safety tie-off lines, tennis shoes -- not boots, and they're still saving up for a hard hat! And as for working HOT -- no problem!

We ALL like to save money -- but a home is everyone's number one investment: the family lives there!

It is always possible to cheat homeowners by unscrupulous operators. Lacking a contractors bond -- or any other insurance -- just how much risk IS a homeowner getting into?

Typical handyman screw-ups:
undersized wire -- the right stuff cost more...
polarity -- what's polarity?...
sloppy rough-in -- receptacles high and low...
hacked to pieces existing wall board -- no fishing skill...


Other handyman beauties: he charges by the hour -- and is lost. So 2 hour projects take two days -- plenty of Home Depot visits for advice, though.

Handyman is color-blind: that's fun!

Handyman has his OWN color scheme: now you're color confused.

Handyman is good at running wire: not so good at figuring out what he's done... crossing hots on the same leg -- over stacking a neutral -- ultra-short taps ( got to save the 'scrap' for extra income )

Handyman can make it work but can't make it look right ( NASTY surface runs in the garage -- they really 'help' the resale value. (( If this is acceptable in the open -- what did this HO let go where it's hard to view? ))

A compilation of hack work that is still out there is worth your while.

A portfolio of your own work is also most wise.


Posted By: Niko Re: what would you respond? - 06/17/10 08:02 AM
Thank you all for your replies and support. I did secure the project.

For comparison i tell perspective clients that the material is similar, is not the same, it is similar. Internet sells GFCI for $2.95 but my distributor sell them for $15.00. so by similar i mean they look similar on the outside but it is the inside that counts. And i tell them that i refuse to buy and install a GFCI that is $2.95

It is the level of service that i provide, you are buying my experience and expertise when you hire me VS the hourly guy from CRAIG'S LIST who does side jobs.

Another analogy is compare targetwalmart to NORDSTROM. the service and quality that NORDSTROM provides can not be compared to TARGET, WALMART. So you can not expect me to perform on the same level with the other guy who does side jobs and/or who is a handyman.

Just for the record I don't have anything against handyman. I respect them according to the level that they want to be respected.
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: what would you respond? - 06/17/10 03:48 PM
Niko:
Congrats on the win!

Yes, the 'bargain' devices (GFI/Duplex/Switches, regular and designer) are showing up more now. A resi TH/Condo developement EC learns the hard way as I do the final, and defective items are found. "Heck, I checked these out yesterday" is a response I heard many times. The source for this quality merchandise was in Greg's area, imported from the 'east'. The <$ 3.00 GFI sure costs a whole lot more when you factor in a red sticker!

BTW, I wonder what the defect and return policy is on these quality items??
Posted By: gfretwell Re: what would you respond? - 06/17/10 05:53 PM
This is more of an East Coast thing than here but I agree it is a problem.
Fl IAEI is trying to get serious about counterfeit NRTL stickers but it is pretty hard to do if the guys do a good job on counterfeiting them.
These are showing up in big ticket items too like HVAC systems.

http://www.iaeifl.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/7315/Fraudulent_ETL_and_UL_logos_in.html#Post7315
Posted By: HotLine1 Re: what would you respond? - 06/17/10 08:34 PM
Greg:
I only mentioned 'your area' as the EC here bought the materials from a co. based by you. The stuff is definatley 'offshore'. The labeling looks 'odd' and it was refered to a local UL office, and I have heard no more on it.

Posted By: gfretwell Re: what would you respond? - 06/17/10 08:51 PM
As I said on the IAEI BB, this is probably just the tip of the iceberg. We are really only catching the ones with poorly copied U/L stickers. I imagine there are more sophisticated counterfeiters out there. I am not sure how you would detect a useless AFCI since even the name brand people say testers do not work on their product. Any kludge of parts that trips when you push the test button could be called an AFCI.
Posted By: Niko Re: what would you respond? - 06/18/10 04:47 AM
One thing i don't understand why EC don't get quality material. I know it is all about coming in cheapest just to get the job. But i know if the consumer is concerned about their property and is properly educated by the EC, they will go with the better quality work and material.
Now, the consumer who has CHEAPEST tattooed on their brain, then there is nothing we can do. Doesn't matter how much the EC tries to educate them, they only want the cheapest.

Posted By: Tesla Re: what would you respond? - 06/18/10 11:43 PM
The Cheapo mindset comes from the perception that running wire is easy -- and what the hell -- it's going to be buried in the wall anyway.

Obviously, Mr. HomeOwner/HomeOwer normally DOES NOT have a clue as to how they can go off the rails/ burn down the house.

One example: newish townhome in Reno Nevada 100 yards from the fire station in the nicer part of town. New owners had some illegal immigrant handymen add some circuits for this and that. Took a trip to Vegas. Came back to an entirely razed ruin. Fire marshal concluded that it was electrical. This is the aspect of electrical fires: the 'starter fluid' is constantly juicing the hot zone until flash-over.

Once flash-over occurs the entire structure is toast. ( Forget all those Hollywood staged fires where the hero can run through the inferno -- no lungs can take it & the smoke is incredible.)

Losing all of your personals is a real downer even if the family gets out alive.

------

Another item with regard to salesmenship: your tool 'crib.'

One fine day, clean up and lay out your tools. ( Helps for theft identification, too.) If your pictures stink hire a semi-pro photographer. (There are a ton available on CraigsList.)

Then explain to the prospect that NO handyman has the toys to properly correct or extend his electrical system in any reasonable amount of time. So, forget about his low per-hour billing rate, he'll take forever -- IF he gets it right!

Posted By: dougwells Re: what would you respond? - 06/19/10 12:10 AM
Thanks T
I never thought of the tool approach
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