ECN Forum
Posted By: JoeyD travel time - 03/29/08 01:10 AM
For those with employee's, do you pay travel time to jobs?
Lets say you meet at the shop at 7am, load the truck and on the road by 7:15, at the job by 7:45. What time do you think the employee should be paid from?
Now if you don't pay travel time to the 1st job, what about the second or third or what ever? Lets say you do 3-5 service calls per day but sometimes you only do one job per day.
Posted By: HEI_Inc Re: travel time - 03/29/08 01:20 AM
In your example above, the employee would be on the clock at 7am. As soon as the employee starts performing work they are on the clock.

Also, the employee would be on the clock until he/she returns the truck to the shop.

Let's say you worked in an office. One morning your boss stops by and says, "From now on I need you to stop by our downtown office, pick up a box of paperwork, return to the suburban office (where you typically work) and then start processing the paperwork. Your 8 hour shift will start when you return to the suburban office."

What would you say to your boss ?
Posted By: LK Re: travel time - 03/29/08 01:32 AM
The employee is on the pay roll as soon as he clocks in at 7:00 and is paid every minute he is on the road, in my state the workers comp covers his medical if he in in an accident, and if i don't have him on the books, and there is an accident, I am in deep deep do do, and could loose everything.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: travel time - 03/29/08 02:08 AM
Where this gets shaky is when you tell the employee to meet you at the job site (driving his or her own vehicle) in the next town over. Does (s)he get paid for driving to the job? How do you compute it? Distance from the shop or some formula that takes into account where (s)he lives?
Posted By: JoeyD Re: travel time - 03/29/08 02:09 AM
I agree about your on the clock when you get to the shop. This is a situation my brother is in. The employer doesn't think travel time to the job should be paid, or back to the shop.
Just looking to see what others are doing.
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 03/29/08 02:21 AM
From shop to job, Paid.
"meet me at the job" 7 AM start time. If you elect to meet me at 9AM. so be it. I'll be there at 7AM waiting.
If I must return to the shop at the end of the day. Then that time should be coverd aswell, and if you want to hold me there for an hour or 2 and discuss the days events and tommorows schedule, that is paid time too.
If not, place an add, you need a worker.
Posted By: JoeyD Re: travel time - 03/29/08 04:15 PM
I think the big issue is the guy wants my brother to take a van home and he can't. No room to park it. He can't use it to do anything but to and from work so he needs his own vehicle.
He would still have to go to the shop in the am and not get paid to pick up the other guy and then go to the job or jobs for the day. He is on his own time back to the shop at night and feels it's a fair compromise to be paid for the morning ride to the job from the shop.

leland, I like your thinking and would do the same in a second. You can't be taken advantage of and you must give and take.
Posted By: LK Re: travel time - 03/29/08 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by JoeyD
I think the big issue is the guy wants my brother to take a van home and he can't. No room to park it. He can't use it to do anything but to and from work so he needs his own vehicle.
He would still have to go to the shop in the am and not get paid to pick up the other guy and then go to the job or jobs for the day. He is on his own time back to the shop at night and feels it's a fair compromise to be paid for the morning ride to the job from the shop.

leland, I like your thinking and would do the same in a second. You can't be taken advantage of and you must give and take.


It depends what state your in, if your in a state that had their commercial truck insurance tied to comp insurance for medical, then the employye has to be paid when ever he in in the truck, even if he is just the second man, both guys in the truck must be on the clock anytime they are in the truck, a lot of cheap EC's try to cheap out, and just don't understand the gravity of harm that cam come from not folowing the law, until they have an employee in an accident.
Posted By: gfretwell Re: travel time - 03/29/08 08:10 PM
Like LK says there are insurance ramifications of letting employees drive company vehicles "off the clock".
You can also run afoul of the IRS. If they are using a company vehicle to "commute" that may be "compensation" and you might have to pay tax it (is it really "business use"?).
IBM ran into that problem when started buying guys a van and we let guys take their van home. They got around it somehow by saying it was a security issue (having a van with $100,000 worth of parts parked outside the shop).
They ended up making the guy's "point of reporting" his house so he got paid to drive back and forth from work.
Then the question became "how many stops can you make on your way home from work".
It was real can of worms.
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 03/29/08 10:10 PM
I still stand firm!!! From home to the shop.. your on your own.
Once at the shop. Your on the clock. Return the truck to the shop. Punched out.

No ifs ands or buts about it.

I had an employer, wanted to adjust my income for use of the van (for tax purposes, perfectly legal).
I said Fine, I'll be here at 7AM to start the van, and it will be back here at 3PM. That would mean he would have to pay for 2-3 hrs a day of no production. He thought different of it.

Now I leave at 6AM and return home around 4PM. He pays from 7-3. But, when I'm in the van he still owns the responsability.

PS: If you are carrying anything for the employer in your personal vehicle. You crash.. Put it on the companies insurance. Or charge a currier fee.
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 03/29/08 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by JoeyD
I think the big issue is the guy wants my brother to take a van home and he can't. No room to park it. He can't use it to do anything but to and from work so he needs his own vehicle.
He would still have to go to the shop in the am and not get paid to pick up the other guy and then go to the job or jobs for the day. He is on his own time back to the shop at night and feels it's a fair compromise to be paid for the morning ride to the job from the shop.

leland, I like your thinking and would do the same in a second. You can't be taken advantage of and you must give and take.


Give and take is huge. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've spent 2 hrs going over stuff and been clocked out.Or have been compensated for time I did'nt think I had. All good.

But if brother has to go to the shop to pick up employee and STILL be on site at 7 AM, then what ever time he shows up at shop to pick up said employee, That is his start time. PERIOD. And said employees start time. PERIOD.
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 03/29/08 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by gfretwell
Where this gets shaky is when you tell the employee to meet you at the job site (driving his or her own vehicle) in the next town over. Does (s)he get paid for driving to the job? How do you compute it? Distance from the shop or some formula that takes into account where (s)he lives?


Personal vehicle, not shaky at all. normal commute. Even an hour or more away. Be here at 7AM.leave at 3-3:30.

Company vehicle.. alltogether different.
Posted By: electure Re: travel time - 03/30/08 12:15 AM
I'm surprised that so many guys go to work not knowing what their start time is, but still willing to argue over a nickel an hour of wages. I'm also amazed to think that so many contractors don't pay them for the drive, and how few take the time to even look it up.

The law in MA

Travel Pay
The general rule is that commuting to work time is not paid work time. However, the FLSA covers three different forms of travel time for nonexempt employees that may constitute paid worktime. They are travel during the workday, out of town travel and overnight travel.

Travel during the workday that occurs after the employee has reported for work and that is for the benefit of the employer is usually compensable. Employees that travel out of town generally must be compensated for the time the employee is traveling. However, commuting time to the place of departure (e.g. airport, train station) us excluded from paid work time. Overnight travel is compensable when the travel time occurs during the employee's regular work hours. This rule applies even if the employee is traveling on non-regularly scheduled work days (e.g. Saturday or Sunday).
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 03/30/08 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by electure
I'm surprised that so many guys go to work not knowing what their start time is, but still willing to argue over a nickel an hour of wages. I'm also amazed to think that so many contractors don't pay them for the drive, and how few take the time to even look it up.

The law in MA

Travel Pay
The general rule is that commuting to work time is not paid work time. However, the FLSA covers three different forms of travel time for nonexempt employees that may constitute paid worktime. They are travel during the workday, out of town travel and overnight travel.

Travel during the workday that occurs after the employee has reported for work and that is for the benefit of the employer is usually compensable. Employees that travel out of town generally must be compensated for the time the employee is traveling. However, commuting time to the place of departure (e.g. airport, train station) us excluded from paid work time. Overnight travel is compensable when the travel time occurs during the employee's regular work hours. This rule applies even if the employee is traveling on non-regularly scheduled work days (e.g. Saturday or Sunday).



"The law in MA" I'm confused.
Posted By: electure Re: travel time - 03/30/08 01:02 AM
OK, it's a federal law, but it still applies in MA, where the OP is from.

It was decided in 1947 that "portal to portal pay" be further defined, and that was the result.
Here's a link to the Regulations:

http://www.dol.gov/dol/allcfr/ESA/Title_29/Part_790/toc.htm
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 03/30/08 01:28 AM
"portal to portal pay"

Absolutely correct, shop to job to shop, and anything in between. not from house to job, thats a commute.

once on the first job (or shop),if they send you somewhere else, your on their nickle.

"Section 4 of the Portal Act, which relates to so-called ``portal-to-
portal'' activities engaged in by employees on or after May 14, 1947,
provides as follows:

(a) Except as provided in subsection (b), no employer shall be
subject to any liability or punishment under the Fair Labor Standards
Act of 1938, as amended, * * * on account of the failure of such
employer to pay an employee minimum wages, or to pay an employee
overtime compensation, for or on account of any of the following
activities of such employee engaged in on or after the date of the
enactment of this Act:
(1) Walking, riding, or traveling to and from the actual place of
performance of the principal activity or activities which such employee
is employed to perform, and
(2) Activities which are preliminary to or postliminary to said
principal activity or activities

which occur either prior to the time on any particular workday at which
such employee commences, or subsequent to the time on any particular
workday at which he ceases, such principal activity or activities."

Before and after work your on your own.
Arriving at the shop IS a PRINCIPAL activity.

Excellent link!!!!! Thankyou!!!!!(edit)
Posted By: PE&Master Re: travel time - 03/30/08 10:43 PM
Doesn't this say the employer is relieved from liability if the following three conditions are met?

(paraphasing)
1.traveling to and from the job
2.after the works done
3.if it's not compensable (billable) work?


(b) Under section 4 of the Portal Act, an employer who fails to pay
an employee minimum wages or overtime compensation for or on account of
activities engaged in by such employee is relieved from liability or
punishment therefor if, and only if, such activities meet the following
three tests:
(1) They constitute ``walking, riding, or traveling'' of the kind
described in the statute, or other activities ``preliminary'' or
``postliminary'' to the ``principal activity or activities'' which the
employee is employed to perform; and
(2) They take place before or after the performance of all the
employee's ``principal activities'' in the workday; and
(3) They are not compensable, during the portion of the day when
they are engaged in, by virtue of any contract, custom, or practice of
the kind described in the statute
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 03/30/08 11:10 PM
PE: not sure what your point is. Could you expand?

Just trying to find wich side of the issue your commenting on.
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 03/30/08 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by PE&Master
Doesn't this say the employer is relieved from liability if the following three conditions are met?

(paraphasing)
1.traveling to and from the job
2.after the works done
3.if it's not compensable (billable) work?


(


Sorry, Now I see it! (i'm slow).
Thats how I see it.
1,2 &3. No pay. But.. from one site or job to the next, your on the clock. If said contractor does not bill travel time, Thier loss, not the employees.

Did I read you right?
Posted By: Rewired Re: travel time - 03/31/08 12:49 AM
The way thinks got changed at my place of employment, we are to show up for 7:30, get ready, get our work van and be out of the shop so we can be at the first job by 8:00, and we don't get paid for that 1/2 hour between 7:30 and 8:00am.. In all fairness, we do stop at the local coffee shop on the way to the job with " no questions asked" by the boss, yet its still not right we get shafted having to prepare in the morrning on our own time.. We get paid for all other travel time in between and until we dot the last "I" in our paperwork back at the shop at the end of the day.

A.D
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 03/31/08 02:06 AM
REWIRED, Thats plain wrong!!! You want me at the shop at 7:30. On the clock at 7:30. What if the job is 1 hour away? as is typical when the local jobs are'nt around.
Thats bull bleep!!!!
If I get there at 6 and WANT TO LOAD, Then I'm paid from 6! IF NOT.. I'LL WAIT untill 7:30!!!!

Please, Don't give me the..."But Leland you don't understand...." Crap, I DO!! 22 years and have never not been paid for actual time worked. And never will!!!

This burns my nose, fries my A#$ What ever! If you hire someone to work,When they work you pay them. PERIOD!!!
Your getting screwed, and worse, your allowing it!!!!

Posted By: Sixer Re: travel time - 04/01/08 03:56 AM
My policy: If start time is 8am, you're on the clock at 8 am. However, if you show up for work before 8 am and kill some time by cleaning out the van or whatever, don't expect the start time to be adjusted for that - it's your choice and you're not expected to start work until 8am.
Posted By: JoeyD Re: travel time - 04/01/08 11:28 PM
It sounds like rewired gets paid to travel back to the shop at the end of the day. Thats the oposite of what I have been use to but the same thing.
I would not work for a company that will not pay for any hours I am working, getting loaded for a job, cleaning the company van, cleaning the shop, ordering stock, time clocking. These are all things that an employee should be paid for because they are woking when doing them.
The company in question has two other employee's, one who doesn't seem to mind doing all these things for free and the other who thought this was how the industry is due to his lack of time in the trade.
I use to work for this company and was paid to travel to the job and I donated the ride home at the end of the day.
Posted By: WireNuts29 Re: travel time - 04/01/08 11:54 PM
I've worked for 2 companies here in Ma. Both at extreme opposites. the company I started with and worked my apprenticeship with and left a few years after getting my tickets,(MA & R.I.). I left for slightly over a year to do Fire and Security. The company I started with is very large, 500+ employees. Whereas the company I was at had 6-10 at any given time, kinda a revolving door operation with employees.Anywho. I didn't realize how sweet of a deal I have now and would have had if I didn't quit. I get a van to drive to work, a gas card.In return for one week of on call 24/7, Every 10 weeks. I start at 7am, usually, and usually ends at 3 or 3:30 depending upon If we work through lunch. If I need to pick up stock, or conduct buisness at one of our shops its all done during "work" hours. if I donate 15,20, or even 30 minutes ocassionally it all washes in the end. cause believe me there are days I'm done 15, 20, or 30 minutes early. On the flip side of the coin The small shop I worked for We arrived to depart 7 am most days load the van and drive to site. The boss was very nitpicky about leaving after 7 if we needed to load up or what not.And god forbid THE BOSSLADY sees the van atthe gas station/dunkin donuts man she didn't like that. And the commute back to the shop was for free, and we the guys in charge of jobs, even got to prep for jobs on our own free time after work atthe shop. IE. look at prints, order materials, rumage through stock in shop for work to be done. SO needless to say I gave that place slightly over 1 year just to make sure I wasn't being hasty now I'm back to company A. And by the way there were more than several ocassions in which we departed the shop at 7am and arrived back well after the 5pm. time the office folks left. for 8 hrs pay, bullsh!t. Thats my 4 cents...since that was a long post
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 04/02/08 03:28 AM
Sixer: your right, If I decide to show up early and clean..I'm on my own!
BUT, If my employer tells me to come here and get the van loaded and be on the job at.. Thats quite a different issue!! On the clock at arrival.

JoeyD: FROM the shop (at 7) to the job, paid. From the job to the shop (3:30) paid! If you are required to, go to and return to the shop, thats paid time. Otherwise... "I'll see ya in the AM".

If not, then ,from 7-3:30 paid. If you elect to get a ride,To save you fuel, then no compensation is required.

WIRENUTS': Start whith a Capital 'N'? Or 'A'?

If I leave early, my decision. I am to be at the job at 7.
I leave at 3:30. Travel home is also on me. But, their truck and fuel!!!!
Posted By: Rewired Re: travel time - 04/05/08 04:04 AM
leland:
Yes I agree we are getting screwed over.. No doubt about that.. I wont give you the " but you don't understand" bit but I do try to make it work out "even " in the end. Such as if I know what I will be doing the next day I will make sure I am set up the night BEFORE so all I have to do is show up, get my van and scoot.. Its funny the boss doesn't really care what my "punch out" time is.. I think they are just worried about "start times" on invoices or whatever, and thats not my department and never will be LOL I just do the work.

In all fairness my boss is pretty good to me, in his defence, he has shelled out for me to get my drivers licence upgraded to a "DZ" ( small truck with air brake) and has let me borrow several pieces of equipment including the bucket and boom trucks on weekends and has even told me to take my work vehicle home on more than one occasion when he found out my personal vehicle was in the shop for repairs.. That is NOT heard of by my boss in the past EVER! Fuel? "Don't worry about it" he says.. Need a day off? " No problem". It is a very small company I work for, and I do think a little "give and take" goes a LONG way.

A.D
Posted By: leland Re: travel time - 04/06/08 12:51 PM
"In all fairness my boss is pretty good to me, in his defence"

Then thats all that matters,oppinions don't.
You have a good working relationship with your boss and an unwriten agreement. Great. Ive had the same with some of mine. (perhaps I missed that earlier)

If it works for you and him, what else matters?
Posted By: electure Re: travel time - 04/07/08 01:49 PM
Are employers required to pay employees at the regular rate of pay (electrician's wages), or can they pay at a lesser rate for drive time?

(That's assuming the employee makes more than the minimum wage) smile
Posted By: BryanInBalt Re: travel time - 04/07/08 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by electure
Are employers required to pay employees at the regular rate of pay (electrician's wages), or can they pay at a lesser rate for drive time?

(That's assuming the employee makes more than the minimum wage) smile



If the boss requires the employee to be somewhere at a certain time (eg the shop at 7am) then that is when his work day starts *whatever* it is the boss is requiring him to do there (load material/safety meeting/pick up helper). This follows through for the entirety of the work day including the time to return to the shop if that is what the boss is requiring him to do.

All the middle of the day 'waste' (windshield time, waiting for an inspector, waiting for keys to access a work area, call backs) whatever else may come up the onus is on the boss to utilize their employees time to his best advantage; and if he can't (for whatever reason) then the onus is on him to suck it up and take it.

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