Met with a guy to trim out his spec house. He had a falling out with the last electrician, and this project has been going on for 3 years.

Talked to the original electrician, and he was sorry for the falling out. Too many questions about who was responsible for the extras, etc. Says he hasn't gotten a dime from the guy in two years, but the guy paid him fine until then. Not sure whose fault this is.

1) Since I am coming in now, everything is billable, no questions about what is and what isnt billable, right?

2) How would you guys price this job. Its like 60% trimmed out. I need to terminate the panel, install all LL stuff, install Ambience lights/transformers, hang fans, wire appliances, etc.

The electrician wired the sons house accross the street and had no problems with either the son or the dad (guy who called me). I couldnt get the original electrician to say anything bad about the owner, no matter what I tried. He just said he didn't have time for the bickering anymore. Said I could call him anytime for info.

The owner owns this large beer distrbutorship around here, and it took me a while to place his face. He's from somewhere in the middle east, but I think he's Indian or Pakistani. I heard from someone that knew an empoyee of his who said this guy thought the US deserved 9/11. This has nothing to do with the job, but this info has bothered me since 9/11 and I haven't purchased any adult beverages from him since.

He seemed nice and on the up and up while we walked around, and my bs meter was not pegged at all. Just seemed like a guy who wanted his house finished. Maybe he's a lot smarter than I am.....

I was thinking T&M, what do you think?

[This message has been edited by kiwisholland (edited 09-09-2006).]

I would refuse doing work for anyone who considers that we deserved 9/11. I just can't stand being in the same room with someone like that. In fact, I would tell him to, you know, go bleep himself. But hey, thats just me. Also, I am a veteran, and I vote.


PS: I tried to keep this message free of any political bias.

The 9/11 info came fourth hand, so to speak. I never heard him say it.

I would only do it T&M. You don't know the quality of the work already done. Too many fingers to point problems at. Get a letter from the first electrician saying he has abandond the job. This is a legal requirement.

I'm with ShockMe... you could also ask him directly what his thoughts about 9/11 and take your cues from there (perfect time too, since we're at the 5-year mark).

If he squirms, evades, or does anything that makes you question his partiotism, then pass -- and give him a few choice words to go along with it.

Joe

Tell him it would be T&M, get a large deposit.

Send an anonymous letter to the FBI or homeland security that you THINK you saw a Al-Queda logo in his house.

After a couple months, send the deposit to a 9-11 fund.

Then send him the reciept of his donation.

Members you should all know better than to go this far off topic.

Keep the discussion about the electrical business.

Leave the customers nationality and alleged political views out of the discussion.

Bob

Please leave the customers nationality, and any alleged, political views out of this discussion, or it will be closed.

Thank you,
LK

You're doing flat-rate, aren't you? If so, why not stick with what you know? Start with a healthy testing fee to test that the existing wiring is OK, then proceed with normal trim rates from your book.

The only thing I'd adjust is a pay-as-you-go schedule with deposits or advances, and a well written limit of liability. You don't want to be held responsible for the work of the previous EC. If he's looking for you to take on full responsibility, make it a total rewire.

Dave

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 09-10-2006).]

It is not possible to bid something like this. Too many unknowns.
T & M is the only safe way to go.
But at about $200.00 plus per hour, which is what most of you flat rate guys seem to charge, you probably won't get the job.

redsy, you are 1/2 right. but we don't charge $200 or $300/hr, we charge enough to make $800-$1200 for the day. Since, in all fairness, we only charge our customers for the actual time we are working, and we are only on the actual job about 5 hrs a day. We bill $200 to $300 per billable hour. We just tell them up front what the cost will be.

Kiwi, I tend to agree with Tiger. We've done a whole mess of these projects in the past (used to do some work for a GC who specialized in taking over jobs- he charged the customer a boatload, we charged him a boatload)

but like tiger said, give him a set price to do a thorough inspection. It'll take 2-3 days, but it can be done. You'll find everything but maybe a buried junction box and/or a potential arc fault condition from a staple that's too tight.

in that time, you will learn all the wiring and how the previous ec circuited the house. You'll find missing wires (if any) shorts, broken wires, etc. At that point you can determine what needs to be done and how to do it.

Going in T&M, you need to account for down time (travel to and from the job, etc) Also, what happens when you take longer than he thought? Even with a deposit and only working to that limit, you still defeat the purpose.

the goal is to make money on the job, while making the customer happy. Go in with a blank T&M and see how unhappy the customer is when you request 2-3 $5000 deposits and your still not done because of all the work that the previous guy screwed up.

Good luck. But it can be done flat rate, we've done it probably 2 dozen times over the years with good results. Money in our pocket and happy customers.

Let's step back, and look at this situation from a distance....

Customer seems to be a nice guy, but has severed realtionship with the electrician.

Electrician seems to be a nice guy, but has severed relationship with the electrician...

Both say nothing but nice things about the other guy...

Sorry, but my "lawyer alarm" just rang. Folks who so carefully guard their tongues are, in my experience, hiding something, and don't want to have their lawyers playing phone tag!

So, who are you going to believe? You can probably find others who have worked for, or hired, or done business with the electrician. They might venture an opinion as to the sort of guy he is.
Same for the customer.

Otherwise, some folks have been proper in their dealings with me, but other comments they've made have made me question their conscience and ethics. I have, in such cases, ever so carefully removed them from my life. As I see it, it is only a matter of time before they decide to "play" with me!

No one will talk? Remember the saying "birds of a feather flock together." Look at a man's associates. If his friends give you the creeps.... he's likely a creep himself!

T&M, leaves the owner in wonderland, and can lead to arguments, on every step of the job.

Les, In 6 yrs this has never happened. It is in how you sell it. And then how you perform it.

The other side of the coin would be, you do one contract for "investigating", we'll say the first contract is for $1200. Your tech says it might take a day to look over things.

One hour latter the customer is screaming that you ripped her off becuase it only took one hour to find out everything looks good and just needs finishing. I doubt you'll get paid.

Just looking at both sides fairly, mind you.

Underpromise and over deliver. It's alway easier to give money back to a customer than to get more money from them. Plus the customer always feels better getting a rebate than paying more than expected.

Dnk,

I understand where you are coming from...

I wonder though, when you do a time and materials project, do you give the client a ballpark up front to smooth things over somewhat?

I know that there are some projects that I do, where I am not comfortable flat rating it. I explain all the issues to the customer, and give them an idea of what I think it will take to do the project. I am always a little nervous in this situation, although I've never been burned on it yet... but I have had projects go long in this situation and customers do tend to put a little extra pressure on me to keep to the ballpark that I gave them.

In the end, they feel that I gave them a fixed bid price even though we had agreed it was time and materials, so it takes a little extra to keep them happy. But you are right, it can be done...

Some great ideas fellas, thanks.

I think I am going with another tip I got and I am requesting a $5000 retainer, from which I will deduct T&M...

The bitch is, I am totally Flat Rate, so I will have to figure a rate based on 90% billable time.....

Thanks agian fellas!

First I would call it a custom home not a spec house. The idea of a spec house is to get it done quick & for less for the builder to put on the market to sell to an unknown buyer. Details are not so important.

A custom home is when the house is built for the homeowner the way they want it. They can take forever because of the constant changes the HO makes once it's half done. Also this can lead to disagreements about amouts due.

You could do a combination of flat rate and T&M. Flat rate on installing fixtures, fans, and devices. T&M on tracing/figuring out, checking, reworking, items.

Are you willing to take responsibility for the work already done? I've always been reluctant to take over where someone else left off. If you're comfortable with it, I would do T&M, billable each week, with a deposit at the beginning. Just my 2¢.

I would make sure to have a release of liability clause in my contract. You do not want to be on the hook for a fire that happened due to improper wiring from the previous E.C.

My 'lawyer bell' went off too when I read that both parties had nothing but nice things to say about each other.

The trim out is the easy part of the job. Not many E.C.'s would walk away at that point unless there were money issues....

I like LK's idea about a 1200 dollar fee to inspect all the work and see if the job can be done to your satisfaction.

Yup, give them a best and worst case scenerio, and update them as you go. If it is a Trouble shooting job, the more informed they are, the less they worry.

Still, a combo of T&M to find out whats wrong, and then contract what you have left to do, would be my choice is this post.

[This message has been edited by Dnkldorf (edited 09-12-2006).]

If it smells fishy, it probably is. I would get a signed agreement that you are only finishing work installed by another and his agreement that he absolves you of ANY liability for what has gone before. Get a healthy deposit and charge him for every minute you spend sniffing out problems. Make him understand (over his signature) that you get paid every week, that the materials will be furnished at x margin and that you charge for a.) going to get stuff, b.)standing around thinking about stuff, c.)ALL conversations with him or his family and friends about the project, d.)any and all additions/corrections/modifications/relocations/removings/...etc. I have had some very difficult experiences with wealthy foreigners and middle eastern types seem intent to skin tradespeople. I did some finish work for a Pakastani Princess in SE Ark a few years ago and found out that I was the 7th or 8th. electrician on the job and that every one who had ever worked on the mansion hated the woman. I was paid, but it took some intimidation on my part and she still took me for a service call later and I had to eat a 1,000 W. dimmer that was the wrong color. Rather than seem like a rant against foreigners, use contracts because there are jerks from Poughkeepsie as well as Punjab and the contract lets everyone know who/what/how much/when

I offered him T&M at $75 an hour deducted from a $5000 prepaid retainer, with no warranty.

No response....

WIth no response Kiwi, I'd say you've avoided a big headache. Good decision on your part.

sounds like it worked out for the best!!!