Unusual request to pull a permit... - ECN Electrical Forums

Got a call from a buddy from many years back. Seems he fled the auto repair field and became a spark, and after finishing school had been working with my old foreman up until recently for a mid-sized shop doing resi and commercial work.

He left to open a remodeling company.

He called me up wondering a few things...

1) When my AHJ was holding the license exam (last week in May, 1st week of June);

2) If I'd be interested working as a foreman for his crew... seems a friend of his is a developer, and if his condo plans get approved, he'd get the gig to wire all 250 units over the next 2 years or so... he'd be picking up several employees, and wanted to know if I'd run a crew for him.

3) In the meantime, if one of his several pending bids are accepted, if I would pull permits for him under my business name, and perform some of the work, but have him and his current employee do the rest. He said he'd be more than willing to compensate me for the cost of "managing" the permit process, and also would give me full inspection rights since my name is on the permit.

Not sure how I feel about this, without making them employees of my business - even if only for the few weeks until he gets his own ticket - especially for insurance purposes.

Just figured I'd throw this up here for some feedback. I talked to my old foreman, and he says this guy's work is solid, but it's still a little out of my day to day experience.

Thanks,

Doug

Remember, there are two ways this can go bad: the quality of the work and the quality of the finances.

You touched on the quality of the work, but you didnt address the financial issues. First he is a startup, running an established company is hard, running a startup is even harder. If he underbid the project, you will be responsible for finishing it if he doesn't have the ability to eat the loss. Are you willing to donate your time to finish the contract if he goes belly up?

If you really like/know the guy, I would suggest more of a partnership. It seems like with the setup he wants, you are taking a lot of risk with little chance for reward.

A permit is just a permit to work on the project, not a contract to be responsable for finishing the work, at least where i'm from thats how it works, True you are responable for the quility if (IF) the final inspection is finished on the permit you pull, and any work done is the same as if you did the work yourself.
My example of pulling permit for someone else.
I pulled a permit for a aquintance to do some work on a rented farm house that he was living at, and he would do the work, right off the bat the power pole was a small long fence post basicly(for a loop over a driveway)and when I got there and was able to wiggle the pole and bear huge it and pull it out of the ground, needless to say I didn't call for a inspection on the permit number that I pulled. Also the Inspector did contact me about the job and I told him the story and another permit would have to be pulled bye some one else, just let my permit exspire. my point is that a permit is not a contract.

[This message has been edited by highvoltageguy (edited 05-16-2005).]

By pulling permit, I assumed the friend was doing the work under DougW's license. If the work is being done under someones license here in California, that person is responsible for completing the work. Least thats the way I understand it.

If you get the permit under your license, it is your job. Anyone working on the job is your employee, your worker's comp,payroll taxes.Make sure the bid is high enough and the contract is bulletproof.Then hire the future contractor and electrician for about $20 per hour. Get a company like paychex to do the payroll. Deduct all expenses.IF there is a profit at the end of the job, pay yourself your normal rate, say 70 /hr. Then you could split the "excess profit" between yourself and the guys who got you the job by paying them a bonus check thru paychex.Write down the agreement before you start.This is all legal to do and protects everyone.

Hay Doug,

The simpelest sulution would be for you to be an employee for your friends company. As their company forman electrician than you can pull permits under you friends company name. You are no more responcable than just an emploiee. If things go bad just make a call to the building departments to let them know you quit and the job was pulled with your liciance. I would make him collect taxes and provide workers comp insurance on you. Make sure you get proof. Just so it does not look like your a subcontractor for him.

That said it sounds like your friend is tring to start too fast. To bid and plan electrical work with out a liciance is a joke. If he does not have a EC liciance what's to say he has the proper insurance or even set up the company properly. If he does not have an established business how does he know his expenses? What are the chances that he underestomated each unit? On a job like that is he comes out short $1,000 a unit he will be in the hole $250K. Does he have the $ to back a project and crew like this? Or is he planing on working off the payouts and up front $$?

On top of all this you said he wanted to run a remodeling company not just an EC. Does he have any experiance as a GC or bidding as a GC? What deos he know about framing, foundations, roofing, plumbing, heating, etc..? Did he win 1 job yet? Has he ever managed people or a job?

It sounds like a person that looks at someone elces biz & says that's easy, I can start my own Co. and do that too. He has 1 contact the developer that could make or break him. Odds are the developer is wants your friend because he is under priced and can take advantage of his 0 biz exp.

If you want to work for a guy like this make sure he takes all the risk. Get a good hourly pay rate. Make sure he does not have too much of your $$. If things go out of control walk away.

Tom

Active put it all in good words, your friend has the cart ahead of the horse

Around here that is not an unusual request at all. You get plenty of remodelers and maintenance types that try to get someone to permit for them. My reply is that you can hire a Master Electrician ( full time) to sponsor your company. He sends a letter of intent to the state and an electrical contracting company is formed ( with all the responsibilities & liabilities ). When thinking about permiting for others remember that you are responsable for the job forever. Passing an inspection only satisfies the AHJ. Any hidden faults can come back on the contractor ( if there are injuries it can get nasty ). Remember that these people don't have to be electricians to be electrical contractors but they must have a master on staff ( 1 master = 1 Company in all the states I'm familiar with ). If your friend doesn't wish to do this he should work for you until he is licensed and he definatly should not be bidding work. I get tired of seeing all these people that are not in the trade competing with the people that are. You don't get to drive down to take the driving test. Maybe on the way home.

Quote by Active 1
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The simpelest sulution would be for you to be an employee for your friends company. As their company forman electrician than you can pull permits under you friends company name.
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I dont know what the laws are where you are but, in MA you cannot do that.
You must be an officer of the company to use your license for the company and the company name must be on the license.

I can't help but think that the glorious tale of the massive condo job was just some social engineering to make you more amenable to the idea of pulling his permits....

He's your pal, so you know if he's a square guy or not but everytime someone wants me to do something, it's preceded with a pretty story like that.

I think # 1 and 2 are just BS to get on your good side and #3 is the real motive for calling you. I think you should not do it.
For one the contractor is just using the guy because he is cheap, next thing you know there are more of these cheap guys out there paying a few bucks to have their permits pulled and doing work for short money and our industry gets driven down to the ground. OK thats a little far fetched but you get the idea.
I for 1 did not put all the time and money into my training to just pull permits for others to make money.

You did say "old buddy from way back." Want to remain friends? A few hiccups on the job, and you'll hate each other.
Now, if you were on his payroll as his "qualified employee," and doing only electrical work, that would be one thing.
If you were the "prime contractor," and brought him in on the job, that's another.

As I understand his proposal, he finds the custs, he sets the price, he gets the money first, and your name is on the paperwork...what's wrong with that picture?

Maybe I'm getting jaded, but I've heard so many fairy tales over the years, I even doubt my own excuses :-)

When in doubt, go with your gut.

If you want to test the water, tell him you need to consult with your attorney, accountant, insurance person, and need $1,000 up front for everyones time. That will be pocket change for a monster project like this. If he goes for it, do the consultations, and do what they recommend.

Dave

Old buddy my rear. If you even have to ask you know this is a bad idea, not to mention illegal in my state.

First of all, thanks to everybody for the feedback.

He was a trained spark (unlicensed) working for a licensed, established company.

He's currently operating his own business as a remodeling company, but will be changing to an electrical contracting shop once he gets his own ticket.

IF I wind up pulling a ticket for him, and his guy(s) aren't doing the work to Code or quality of work standards that I like, I'm willing to walk away - I told him that before and he told me I'd have full approval / rejection of all work, since it was under my name.

Since he's set up for employees, I might check the possibility of being the "qualified employee" rather than the company listed as responsible for thework - especially if I'm not constructing the bid.

If I goof a bid, bad on me... if I have to complete somebody else's goofed bid for free [Linked Image]

So you are still thinking of pulling a permit for the guy? [Linked Image]

I'll keep the rest of my thoughts to myself.

It's beginning to sound like he should be your employee.

Doug,

I think the idea of being his qualified employee is reasonable. It is different here in IL than those socialist "control freak" states (kidding of course, I do wish things were a little tighter here), and the best bet is to really consult with an attorney to see how the licensed installer incurs personal liability. If you do, post here what he says. I have considered a consult myself, and if I ever do, I'll post too.

Besides, that's what liability insurance is for, and if you are his employee, it is his policy. But again, as all the advice before me, this is legal advice from an EC.

Now, I am skeptical of this liability following you around for life stuff.... I can't imagine the complexities of trying to pin such thing after the fact, and especially as more time passes and other contractors come in and out of a project over time. Half the time I show up to someone’s house and hear about the last guy, they don't know how to get a hold of him, which installer did what or just exactly what he touched anyway.

One last thing, I have really tired of hearing the story of "I have all these great things coming up that are going to be huge and I'm going to be a great person for you to know soon..... now let me ask a small favor..... or work with me on this one job and great things will come." I used to just ignore the promises of work and stick to the task at hand, but now when I start to hear it off the bad I get leery of even the task at hand. Just my personal experience. Good luck.

Check with the AHJ in the area about this and your attourney. What you describe could cost you your license in many juridictions It's called selling your license.
Also have heard too many stories about great things to come. If I had a dollar for all those I have heard I would be retired on a large annual income. Have never had one come true, but have heard many stories on why it did not happen. Total waste of time to listen to them. Because of that experience , I raise my rates and give a higher bid to do the work myself as a subcontractor to the GC. Or just turn the whole thing down and do not get involved.

So you "are allowed" to do some of the work and then his employees will do the rest? And he is willing to compensate you for the handling of the permit stuff? Oh, and you can inspect his employees work too!
My "gut" feeling is...walk away!!! You will get to do the first 1, 2, or 3 units then his guys will mimic what you have done. He is getting the work done a lot cheaper than having you do it, you got the permit (solved another problem for him) and you will be pre-inspecting the work so that he can get green tags. Makes him look like a reputable EC and you have taken all the responsibility and you will in effect be training his crew. And for how much????
If you really want to do this, I would work for him as an employee (salaried or hourly) have him pay for your fuel, etc. and have him carry all liabilty, workmans comp, etc. In addition to that, I would want a percentage of the profit on the 250 units. Remember you are facilitating him being able to do this job by pulling the permits in the first place and you are training his people as well!

Well that is my 2 cents for what it is worth.

WhiteRook

Anyone doing electrical work needs to be properly licensed, if they aren't then they need to have direct supervision, such as an apprentice/journeyman situation. Direct supervision is defined as within sight of. This means that any unlicensed person must have a licensed person working with them at all times. I would be very hesitant to enter into an arrangement such as this from a liability standpoint not to mention the hairy business arrangement.

Thanks again to everybody for the input.

Many of you have voiced some of the concerns I have with this arrangement. Just to clarify, the idea was to pull a permit for a single (big) basement remodel, not the 200+ unit condo complex... [Linked Image]

my good nature and buddy relationship have some limits...

Calls into to attorney and insurance for "informational purposes only".

Doug, I guess it's really none of our business how you choose to operate. However since you brought it up here it brings us into it. To me it does not matter what the job is, condo complex or basement, you would not be less dead in one or the other should a situation arise. Pulling a permit on your license for someone else to do the work is wrong and in some places illegal. In Massachusetts you sign the permit application under the "Pains and Penalties of perjury". Which, unless you happen to be Bill Clinton means you lie, you in trouble. All that aside to take your license, which you earned, and let someone who is not qualified and has not earned a license borrow it cheapens your license (and the trade in general) to nothing more than a peice of paper with your name on it. It also says alot about a persons ethical standards or lack there of. No good deed goes unpunished!

[This message has been edited by Electricmanscott (edited 05-25-2005).]

I recently bid a commercial project to an out of state contractor that I had worked with previously. There were to be fourty of these to be built in my state alone. I thought this was just the ruse to get a cheap low price. About two days later an out of state EC buddy of his called me and had a job in my state that he wanted me to pull a permit for. I immediately dropped the afore mentioned job file in the trash. It occured to me that if I had just ridden in on the proverbial turnip truck, I shouldn't be that hungry yet. Why is it that all of these guys think they are always the first to tell you about the grand and glorious things to come, and if you do something real stupid right now you will become the one that they will want to spread their wealth upon???? Show me a little good faith and let me make some money now on this one!!!

[This message has been edited by watthead (edited 05-27-2005).]