Im in Texas and have a hard time getting $80 per hour for service calls. A women called me today and wanted a 4 prong cord placed on her clothes dryer. When I told her it would be $95 to cover the 1 hour minimum, it wouldnt take longer than an hour, and that the price included material she said that was WAY to high and she was surprised I was in business. I probably get 4 calls a week like this one so that has me thinking maybe Im chargeing too much, but I dont see how anyone can justify a service trip for less than $80 per hour. Do you guys thank thats too high?

Depends on the area you're in and what your costs are. Then again, she may have just been cheap or just shopping around.

Where are you located?

There has been a good deal of discussion lately about "trip charges;" that is, charging, say, $35 just to come out. This approach has its' benefits- not the least of which is that you get the credit card info in advance; no-show customers do happen!
Once you're out there, maybe it is a simple five-minute job- or, maybe, it's not. You won't know until you're there. And, con't forget, the customer is an unknown at this point. Mean, greedy, young jerks sometimes grow into sweet, innocent-looking, old jerks!

You might suggest she call Sears- she'll find out they have a pay-in-advance policy as well. "If Sears does it, it must be OK."

Your time is money, and gas is too expensive to waste.

I also have had great feedback, after the job is done, when I knock a few dollars off the bill (on my own- if they start the 'hustle,' the price starts climbing!)

I would say it depends on if you are busy enough. If you are, I wouldn't worry about it. If you're not, then you might want to think about it.

Your hourly rate should have nothing to do with how much work you have or what the customer thinks. Your hourly rate should be based on your cost of doing business plus your profit. Profit should be anywhere form 10- 20%. So you need to determine your operating expense, insurances, gas, phone, electric, secretary, etc. and compute what you need to make a profit.
$80/ hour seems very reasonable and may not be enough.

Well the fact that "companies" advertise in our main news paper that they will work for $40 per hour, "dont tell my boss I do side jobs", and "we give free estimates" hasnt helped my business at all. I use to give free estimates until I realized I was only getting about 1 out of 20 of these jobs. I would go to the customers home or business in a clean company uniform, clean shaven, was as polite as I could be, and gave them a very fair price only to hear "well let me talk it over with my husband or wife" or "I will have to think about it". Well, thanks for letting me vent a little.

Adan,

Are you getting these calls from the yellow pages? or another form of ad's, some of the guys around here are in the penny type papers, and all they get is low end business.

Some of these people would think free was too expensive so you have to take what they say with a grain of salt.

Sometimes you can turn these calls into more work and make the customer happy also. When they call and ask for a small item that doesn't meet the minimum say something like this: "We have a $95 minimum charge and this would surely cover your repair, but if you can think of a few other small items we can probably do them also for the same price or not much more"

Also, try to stay away from mentioning hourly rates. A guy making $15-$20 per hour or even more can't fathom pay a lowly electrician $80 or more per hour. He doesn't understand your overhead and cost of doing business, he thinks you're trying to make $80/for yourself(which I'm not opposed to).

LK, The calls I mentioned actually came from business cards that I placed at a Lowes store. I know Lowes charges something like $100 to install a ceiling fan. I use to run an add in a penny paper and you are 100% correct when you said all you get is low end business. Well, thanks for all the advice and have a great week everyone.

Rick Bruder. You say that it should not depend at all on how busy you are? If you're busy and your services are in demand you can charge more. Economics 101, laws of supply and demand. It happens in all industries despite your formulas of x percent profit or what have you. Business is business.

Reno,

I'm curious to know what this is:

I refer to Hustle as pissing and moaning, just dont have any money

"The Hustle" is when the customer, after a price has been agreed upon and the work completed, starts coming up with reasons why the bill should be lower. Another guy charges less, I have to vacuum, I'm on a fixed income, it only took one hour (not two), etc.

Possibly the worst sort of 'hustle' is the 'can I pay part now and the rest later?' Or- my favorite variation- "I'm not authorised to pay, the person who is isn't here now, but I can pay if you reduce your price."

Dealing with "the Hustle" is another topic altogether, one I suggest you discuss in the Wednesday chat room, if you can.
The short version is....be as clear as possible before work starts, be prepared to be ruthless (legally, of course), and refuse any attempt to re-negotiate the deal after the work is done.

Howdy all,

I was reading the posts and getting to know this forum and thought I would put in my two cents on this one in particular:

We get a lot of customers with the same situation. The best advice for charging customers is giving them something more than price to compare. IF all you give is a price, there will ALWAYS be someone out there that can beat you. Perceived value is key. Let them know not only the price but why they should choose you! For example, I am sure the guy that charges $60.00 an hour doesn't have insurance to cover potential mishaps, doesn't answer calls with a live person, doesn't provide timely support because he has no one on payroll, etc., etc., etc.

You MUST give your customer more to go on than price. We are all willing to spend a little more if we get better service and value. So do your customer. Keep in mind however that there will always be customers that will complain about pricing no matter what, let those ones go, they will never be profitable anyway and you are in business to make money. I would rather make $800 with 8 customers at $100 a pop that $800 with 10 customers at $80 a pop.

Also, know your costs. It doesn't matter what Mrs. Smith thinks about your pricing if you are not paying the bills. Find out how much it costs you to run your business and then determine your prices. We see too many contractors quote jobs from the hip and wonder where the money went at the end of the year. Here is a little post we wrote a while back that may help you determine your true costs:


How can companies expect to make money if they do not know their true cost of doing business? Most companies we deal with were not assessing their labor or overhead rates properly. This made them to charge too much or more often, too little.

You would be surprised on the number of companies out there that do not know how to price theirs jobs properly. They make quick estimates from the top of their heads trying to take into consideration some overhead and labor costs. Or perhaps they have a budget and go by their fixed and variable overhead only.

But shouldn’t the true cost of labor be calculated, including your technicians “unproductive hours” such as drive time, running for parts, shop and lunch time? And shouldn’t the income that your technicians generate also be factored in so as not to be way overpriced? What about callback labor, vehicle maintenance, uniforms, etc.? Have you calculated all of the above to find out what you really need to charge? Do you know what your true breakeven point is?

One way of doing this is to calculate you’re fixed and variable overhead and add your cost of labor, including benefits. Divide it by your employee’s productive hours (a benchmark would be 50% of their paid hours if you are a service shop). The resulting number is what you need to charge per productive hour to breakeven.

As an example, let’s say your total fixed and variable overhead as well as your labor costs arrive at $500,000 per year. Don’t forget to factor in any callback labor (work done for free), consumable tools, in fact, every dime you spend operating your business. That accounts for our total yearly expenses.

Then, calculate your total productive hours. For example, you have 3 full time technicians getting paid 40 hours per week. Using our 50% ratio, that would leave them with 20 productive hours each week or 60 in total. Multiply that by 50 weeks (2 weeks vacation) and you arrive at 3000 productive hours per year.

Now take your costs of $500,000 per year and divide it by your 3000 productive hours. You arrive at a charge of $166.66 per productive hour. Now before you have a heart attack, keep in mind that we will use this number to calculate only true job time since driving, chatting with the customer, truck inventory replenishment costs have been accounted for in the unproductive time (20 hours per week or 50% of their paid hours).

Now that you have this number, use it to calculate your true cost of any job. Example:

A 4 hour project would cost for labor and overhead 4 X $166.66 = $664.64

Ten add your materials and/or subcontractor costs, let’s say $500.00

Your true cost for this job is $1,166.64. Knowing this is the first step, since you now know that charging any less would be a loss for the company. To add profit, simply use this formula:

For 10% profit, divide the number by 0.9.
For 20%, divide by 0.8
For 25%, divide by 0.75, and so on.

So to make 20% profit on this job, it would be $1,166.64 divided by 0.80 or $1,458.30

As long as your expenses are correct and you’re productive or job hours are conservative and achievable, this method will not steer you wrong. You will be making 20% profit on that job or $291.66

I hope this little tidbit helps a few of you reevaluate your pricing. If you have any questions on this, do not hesitate to email me.

Marc Blanchard

[This message has been edited by Webmaster (edited 04-20-2005).]

Marc,

Thank you for trying to help, but i don't think it will help change anything, in my town alone, over the past 25 years, there have been over 30 guys get their lic. and try their hand at the EC business, and here we are 25 years later, and we have the same 4 EC's still in business, and they have been operating just as you said, using known overhead and adding a small profit, I have seen them come, and i have seen them go, all good well quilified electricians.

Bob,
while your example of business 101 is amusing, we tend to be a little more consistent with our pricing. Our rates are based on our cost of running our company plus the % of profit we want to make. If we get too busy, we don't gouge our customers, just because we don't need the work. My mission is to give the customer the best value that is possible. All our customers get treated the same and pay the exact same for the tasks we perform. the only exception is that if we are slow we may waive our dispatch fee.

Note:
the last time I read "business is business" on this forum it also was used to try to justify deceit. I hope I am reading this one wrong and that's not the way your business is done.

Hey Marc,
Nice post. Were you posting at another forum where you got alot of grief for no real apparent reason?

Rick, I'm glad I amused you at least. I do not operate my business with deceit in mind. What I was really getting at was with setting your rates, hourly, service calls etc., according to what the local market will bear. If your services are in high demand, you can charge a higher rate and thus make more profit. I'm not saying gouge, just base your rates on what the market allows. I know there are all sorts of books out there that have formulas for everything under the sun but they don't apply to every market area and every industry. If your business is extremely busy charging 50 an hour and another business is busy and charging 100 an hour but your happy with your 10% profit. I understand your point but there is also more than one way to establish rates, such as supply and demand.

Bob I used think the same way. Keep inmind that I am not some fantastic businessman, but an electrician who went into business. When I finally decided that things should be done differently, I had all the same attitudes. I had a friend in a different service industry who said I should be charging more and doing things differently and that he was having great success doing it. I told him it would not work in my industry or area because there was too many guys giving there services away. when I researched it further, I found that I could probaly set my own prices as long as I was providing my customers with a much better value. That was three years ago and we are growing every year. I am also networked with 200 other companies from the sticks in tennessee to the cities like LA and Houston. we have bigger shops and alot of one man shops, all of at one time thought that it would not work in our market.
My challenge to you is go to Starbucks and thell hem there coffee is too much. Or look inot how much Subway and Quiznos are getting for a meal. They are all up against the same thing that we are and they are dominating their markets.

I don't mean to be pushy about this, but it took me some time and persuasion to finally look hard into completely changing the way I think about and do business. I lost about two years, because I was afraid to take the chance.

God Bless

Rick,

Here is a good one, a new guy just came to the area, his rates are twice that of all the other EC's in this area, he just set up down the street, and he is busy as can be.

Rick, Congrats on the apparent success of your business. It sounds like you're doing well. I'm not one for giving away my services and I've thought about your Starbucks analogy many times myself. Tim Hortons can also get away with charging premium prices for their coffee because they offer an exceptional product compared to others (at least in my area). My biggest point was not being afraid to charge what we're worth according to our market area. 10-20% profit is great but 30-40% is better if the local market will bear. Apples and oranges aside, I highly doubt Bill Gates or Warren Buffet limit themselves to a 10 -20% profit with their businesses. Another example is Simplex Fire Alarm company. Around here most electrical contractors have rates at 50% of what Simplex charges. I don't believe that the overhead is much different between a decent size electrical contractor and Simplex. But I'll bet their profit margin is much higher because of supply and demand. (and propietary reasons of course). My main point is really not to sell ourselves short. You can bet physicians, lawyers and accountants don't, and they all have competettion as well and in reality the level of training and education and business risk associated with being an electrical contractor is close if not equal to those examples.(although they're held in much higher esteem by the public).

1. You can only charge what the market will bear.

If you like to go to Starbucks and spend $5 for a cup of coffee, then so be it. If you want to go to WAWA and spend $1 for a cup, same thing. Now, if that is what your target customer is, then you just limited yourself.
Count how many people go into Starbucks and get coffee, and then count how many people buy coffee at WAWA.

Same thing apllies to our trade, if you are marketing the "high end" people who spend $5 for a cup of coffee, then you have a given pool to work from, if you market the conservative people like the ones from WAWA, you have a much bigger pool to work with.

Basically, it depends what your niche is.
The WAWA people look for quality at a fair price, the Starbucks look for quality at any price. The WAWA people are willing to sacrifice a little quality for a better price. The Starbucks are willing to pay a premium for quaility.

The resi end of the trade is tough, you have all kinds of EC out there, from the rip offs to the hackers, to the guy that does a great job at a fair price.

Same thing on the Commercial and Industrial end, however, these guys get weeded out alot faster.

Most customer's want 3 things.
1. Their headache or need to go away.
2. Fair and resonable price.
3. It works.

By knowing what your competition charges, that will help you figure out what you can charge.

If you know your competition charges $4,000 for a 200 amp upgrade, you do the same thing for $3000. A 200a upgrade is a 200a upgrade.
Now use that to your advantage, advertise that you are 25% cheaper than them. Prove it to them. You have the same professionalism, you are just cheaper.

Now use that 4000 X Starbucks theory, and the 3000 X WAWA customer base, and where will you make more money?

Quanity + Quality= Success

Dnk......

[This message has been edited by Dnkldorf (edited 04-24-2005).]

Howdy all!

I wanted to take a few minutes to respond to something LK had to say in regards to a post about Knowing your Numbers.

LK, with all due respect, I don't understand the point of your message. Thanks for trying to help? Perhaps the town you are in remains the same over the years but many of our customers deal with variables that change on a regular basis. What I was trying to get across was that the majority of contractors we deal with are not even close to assessing their true cost of doing business and in turn, how much the need to charge to turn a profit. This is the leading factor on why so many of them disappear or make little or no money at the end of their fiscal year.

No matter what the situation may be, if you are not charging enough to pay the bills, a customer’s opinion is irrelevant. You need to identify your costs and if it ends up that you need to charge a little more than your competition, make sure your customers know why. If you’re overhead and labor are higher that your neighbors, you must be paying for something that the competition is not.

Perhaps it is a good insurance policy to protect your customer in case of an accident or a tech mistake. Maybe it is a continuing education plan to keep your techs on top providing good and timely service. Perhaps it is your quick turn-around due to excellent dispatching tools and personnel or even your professionalism via streamlined Flat Rate Pricing reassuring your customers that your quote is not dependant of what is parked in their driveway. No matter what it is, it is up to you to let your customers know why you are THE SHOP to deal with even if you are not the lowest price in town.

Bottom line, we all have a tendency to low ball our pricing when quoting from the hip. However, most companies do not take into consideration expenses such as unproductive hours stemming from trips to the supply house, windshield or chat time. Callback labor is another commonly missed expense that can easily break the 10K mark per year with just 1 hour per week of callbacks. Disposable tools, part time help, bonuses, etc. are all expenses that must be factored in to your bottom line. Any of which can eliminate the already low profit you are making by trying to fight a price war.

So perhaps my previous post did not help you in particular but I know for a fact that “knowing your numbers” has helped many of our customers target and achieve the profit they set forth. And keep in mind that not all of us live in your town or have your experience in the industry. Judging by the fact you are a moderator leads me to believe that you are better informed than most. I do find however that it is those people that keep an open mind and listen to various perspectives that end up finding better and more interesting ways to run their shop. To be honest, I thought this forum was a place to share ideas, not judge them...

Marc Blanchard

P.S. Rick, you are right, that was me in the other forum! I heard this was another good place to meet experienced professionals in the industry. Thanks for the kind words by the way, your encouragement is much appreciated!

You're preaching to the choir, Service Doc. LK is well aware of his cost of doing business. He's probably a little tired of others not understanding it, or worse, not believing it.

Dave

I am slowly catching on to my actual cost of doing business. I used to give my self away but have snapped out of it. This has been a great thread. The more I read about it the more it is ingrained into my head and the more prepared I am to use the knowledge I have learned from this board.

All,

Great discussion. Here is my two cents and a question

The two cents: A big part of the problem is that the homeowner has no idea what it costs to hire, train and retain quality people with the skills and who you (and the homeowner) can trust to do a safe, quality job. Since they have no idea of the costs, they think they are getting gouged by the price needed to keep in business (and make a fair profit).

The question: does any one know of an “neutral, trust worthy organization” that will give them an idea of what the “going rate” is for quality work? AND why they should beware of cut rate gypsies. If such an organization existed, I think it would help all of us.

Any thoughts?

Marc,

The point of my message was, all the EC's that tried to operate, without knowing their costs are gone.

LK

I suppose that the best explanation I've heard on this issue cam from a guy who painted apartments for a living. He said:

"I really hate these unlicensed bums who come into town, grab some temps or illegals off the street, and scoop up all my business by charging a third of what I charge. They do crap work, stuff gets broke or stolen, three months later they're out of business- and my former customers need me back, but now expect me to match the gypsy's prices!"

I suppose that there are "bottom feeding" customers, as well as contractors!

My neighbor was just teling me, he shopped around for some work he needed on his car, and it appears, each garage he called was higher in price for the same job, now had he called an electrician, i bet the price would have gone the other way.

Hi again everyone!

I must agree with VinceR's statement, most customers do not know a contractor's real costs of doing business and tends to think that they are trying to rip them off through overpricing. How does one overcome this obstacle? By education and perceived value...

As an example, as consultants, we needed a pretty high end telephone system for web seminars and conference calling.. At one point, we needed help making a few adjustments and called the company that sold us the system for some assistance. They sent over a technician who after spending about 20 minutes working on our request gave us a bill for $150.00 and left. I was shocked. Why was this guy charging me what a doctor would for his time?

Then, I actually stopped for a moment and thought. The technician came within 24 hours of my request; therefore they probably had a few on hand. Also, he only took 20 minutes to do his work on a pretty state of the art system, which means he probably has ongoing education. His truck was clean, fairly recent and had nice lettering. He contacted the office with his cell phone to provide another customer with timely service after my call was done. The person I talked to initially was not the owner or the tech, but most likely an office manager or secretary that was getting paid pretty well in view of the quality of the call. All these expenses incurred and a lot more that I fail to mention for my little 20 minute call!

So, I put my unreasonable assumptions aside and gladly paid the bill for a job well done. Unfortunately, most of your customers do not think this way and may not arrive at the same conclusion so easily. So it is up to you to educate them on what it costs to provide the professional services you offer. Now you can't ask them to sit down for a 1/2 hour seminar on your company’s financials. However, you can first make sure that their perceived value is high.

First of all, offer written testimonials from people in their area, "if Bob down the street used them, I am sure they are good!" Make sure your trucks are clean and well maintained and that your techs are also clean, polite and take great care of the customer’s premises. Have your office call before the appointment to confirm that the customer will be ready, which will save you some lost time as well. Take a few minutes to chat with the customer about your company and services, yearly safety inspection agreements and perhaps offer a cursory inspection prior to doing the work. (By the way, all of these costs should form part of your breakeven since they are just as valid as any other marketing effort).

Leave behind a little return survey form and other promotional material so that your customer keeps you in mind and provides you with feedback about your services. Follow-up with a call to make an independent evaluation of the customer’s overall satisfaction. These techniques will not only increased the perceived value of your services but provide you with invaluable information which you can use to better your own company!

Secondly, educate them a little about why your services may cost a little more than the other guys. Odds are, the other shops prices are lower because they are cutting corners around some essential tools you need to provide good service. Perhaps that shop is not properly insured or uses labor that is sub-par. Maybe their turn-around time is slow or their after call service is non-existent. Perhaps they do not offer guaranteed service which makes the customer feel more comfortable about using you in the first place. All this to say, if you are more expensive, find out why. “Spy” on your competition by calling them and getting some information from a customers stand point. This way you will know what you are up against and will be better able to compensate for what the other guy is missing.

You can provide this information verbally or through written materials such as a company pamphlet or even a cost letter. We use an inexpensive piece of software to not only find out what our breakeven is but also break down the costs of any call through an educational letter we send to customers. It actually will show them how much of every expense you incur was dedicated to their specific call. All we do is input the worker hours and materials and the system spits out a letter and a cost breakdown sheet that shows them that $25.12 of their bill went towards office rent, $12.53 went toward your Yellow Page ad, another $15.62 went toward truck insurance, etc. This has worked out great since it helps the customer better understand our true costs and how little off their overall bill is actually profit!

So bottom line, make sure your customer's perceived value of your services is high! Also, insure that they know a little more about how much it costs to provide the peace of mind service that you offer. And finally, give them something more to compare you with than just a price, especially those things that you know the other shops are lacking! It will go a long way to separating you from your competition!

If you have any questions on this, feel free to email me!

Marc Blanchard

Marc,

Thanks for your thoughts. We actually try to do most of the things you suggest – present a professional image, follow up surveys, confirming phone calls, etc. and it seems to help.

Any thoughts on my question about a the existence of a “neutral, trusted third party” the consumer could contact to get information about how much they should expect to pay? If anyone knows of such an organization, I would like to know who they are so I could contact them.

Thanks to all for your valuable insights.
VinceR

Vince,
I am not sure how a third party would pull that off. First of all, there is no real market price in this industry. The guys who are claiming there is are the guys who are giving there work away and using there prices as a basis to say it is market pricing so they can justify not making a profit. Until the industry on a whole wakes up and starts selling there work for what it is really worth, you will never have a consistent market price.

My 2-Cents - I have been in business since 1980. Our phiposophy is this. We work for XX/hr period. We do quality work, we are neat, pleasant, clean, ontime and fair. There will always be someone who charges less and there will always be someone who harges more. I just can't worry about those guys, that's just the way it is. We don't slam anyone due to circumstances or take advantage simply because we can. We have survived nicely for 25 years with this philosophy. If the kids are starving, the wife is doing her own nails and you're sitting by the phone from 8-4 - then you're probably a tad high.
Bill

Another observation that I have made over the years. EC's seem to shoot themselves (and others) in the foot. Around here (MA) you can find EC's from $30 - $90/Hr. BUT!!! You can't and won't find "plumbers" in that range. They maintain pricing better than EC's. This has always been a peeve of mine.
Bill

Learjet, Atom

I don't know what the licensing requirements are in your area, but here in PA, there is no statewide license. It is left up to the local municipalities, most of which require no more than a fee to become "licensed".
Having spent 4 years attending classes to study NEC and Electrical Theory, and then taking several licensing exams, I resent having to compete with those who can open shop with no formal training and no competency exam and then charge $30.00 / hr. (or more).
Unfortunately, that's the way it is in PA.

Also,

Good business skills, favorable customer perception and higher profits don't necessarily mean safe, compliant installations. These are my main objectives.

[This message has been edited by Redsy (edited 04-28-2005).]

Redsy - Here in MA state licensing is required. There are so many rules here it is sometimes tough to keep up. That being said - We too have non-licensed wanna-be's who call themselves electricians who perform electrical installations and repairs unlicensed for a cut rate. It hurts us all, not to mention the liability the business or homeowner is setting themselves up for. Most of these guys are also not insured.
Bill

This thread reminds of George Carlin now.

"If some is driving faster than you, he's an idiot, if going slower, he's an A@@hole."

Now we brought it to a new level, if someone is cheaper than you, he's giving work away, and if he is higher than you, he's a crook.

Do your own thing, and make a comfortable living.

Dnk...

Vince,

I agree with Rick, there is no real organization that could provide what you are looking for since pricing within a specific area will vary from shop to shop. And as Dnkldorf mentioned, it is not because someone is lower or higher that makes them cheap or a crook.

When we help out 1 man shops with their breakeven, it ends up usually pretty high since 1 man is carrying the entire overhead and labor burden. The minute they bring on a second guy, that breakeven drops dramatically. However, your breakeven should not automatically dictate your prices. They should only reflect your costs, the actual pricing is left up to you, the breakeven will inform you of your true profit based on the pricing you set forth.

So if you do hire a second, third or ninth guy and your breakeven goes down, bring up your profit to maintain the same pricing level if it is working for you. You should benefit from your added efficiency and perhaps pass on a little discount to customers to be a little more competitive. If your breakeven goes up, you have two choices. Make less profit or increase your pricing accordingly.

There is no right or wrong here but only choice. Make an independent survey of pricing in your area and see how you compare. But bottom line, you need to pay the bills so make sure you cover your costs and a little profit for yourself at the least. And make sure your customer's perceived value is adequate for the price.

By the way, a lot of shops make a thin profit that is quickly lost due to a miscalculation of their breakeven. Don't forget about expenses such as callback labor, disposable tools, paid vacations and holidays, etc. If those are left behind, you will end up with little money after what seemed to be a good year.

Marc Blanchard

"Now we brought it to a new level, if someone is cheaper than you, he's giving work away, and if he is higher than you, he's a crook."
(copied from prev. post)
Dink,
I'm not sure why you would think that at all. This post started by AdamsAtoms asking if he was charging too much. The answer to his question was simple. Find out what it costs you to get in the truck and go to the job everyday and add your profit. There have been some wonderful posts here as to how to find that out, so I won't waste any time re-explaining them.

Just because someone charges more or less than you, doesn't mean he is either a thief or an idiot. It may mean, though he knows his cost of running a business. Also keep in mind that my operating expenses are much different from the next guy. I work along with the guy who works out of his pickup with no advertising, little or no insurance, no utilities, rent, employees, benefits, etc. My advertising budget is more than some guys make in a year. So my hourly rate would not be the same as that smaller company. The same goes for a bigger company, they would probably be higher then me.

With all this being said, we are all in relatively the same game, cutting our individual niche in the industry using the gifts that God has given us. As I plug along trying to achieve the goals I set before me, I encourage you all to do the same.

Marc, Rick, All,

I agree with both you guys. We have been at it for going on 5 years now and I have yet to find see any third party info that was helpful solving this problem. However, since my vantage point is limited and it is a big world, I thought it was worth a shot to see if anyone else knew of anything.

Thanks for your replies.

VinceR