Heh...

First, one could begin by correctly spelling "business"... Geesh...


Best I could do in emulating an invoice...

They really look much neater than this:


Materials Used
Quantity Catalogue # Description Cost Each Price Each Amount
15 3-M1700-TEMFLEX Tape Vinyl Electrical Black 0.0115 $0.01 $0.15
3 BLKADR2 Split Bolt #2 AL-Cu 2.3800 $2.38 $7.14
6 BLKECS2 Cable Strap #2 SEU 0.2960 $0.30 $1.80
1 BLKSEC2 Entrance Cap Weather Head #2 SEU 11.8770 $11.88 $11.88
1 BLKWT4 Connector 1-1/4" SEU Weather-Tite 4.7360 $4.74 $4.74
1 BURPENA-1/2 Penentrox Oxygen Inhibitor 0.9936 $0.99 $0.99
4 FASTENER Lag Bolts 1/4" x 1-1/2" 0.2500 $0.25 $1.00
2 NEEC-1251-R Connector 1-1/4" SEU 1.1050 $1.11 $2.22
9 SCRHHD10X1-1/2 Screw Hex #10 x 1-1/2" 0.0418 $0.04 $0.36
2 S-CWA164 Reducing Washer 2" to 1-14" 0.9350 $0.94 $1.88
1 SQD-QOM100VH Circuit Breaker Main 100A 120/240V 79.990 $79.99 $79.99
20 WALSEU2/3AL #2-3 SEU Service Entrance Cable 1.053 $1.05 $21.00
Subtotal $133.15
Sales Tax 6% $7.99
Total Materials $141.14
Labor
Time In Time Out Hours Date Rate Total
18:30 19:30 1.00 3/6/05 $25.00 $25.00
11:40 12:15 0.58 3/7/05 $25.00 $14.58
13:35 15:05 1.50 3/7/05 $25.00 $37.50
9:30 12:00 2.50 3/8/05 $25.00 $62.50
Total Labor 5.58 Man-hours $139.58

Total Amount Due $280.72

Overhead and Breakdown:
2 bounced checks ($60.00) Total Bounced Checks
3 Trips to BGE @ 75 min ($22.50) Total fuel costs
& $7.50 fuel 3.75 hours not billed
9.33 Total Time
$57.08 Money Left for Labor
$6.12 Average hourly wage



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-13-2005).]

Sorry about that - had a fire call.

Well, I'm not in the $100k/yr club for my sparkshop, but here's a few pointer/questions/comments about your sheet...

Why billing for less than a full hour unless doing "favor " for the proverbial "little old lady" or a repeat customer? I mean, if you're at 61 minutes, it's one thing. If you're at 78 minutes...

Why not charging for trips to supplier (assuming that's what BGE is)? I charge for trip to supplier & back (part of overhead, if that's the right "category" for it), but not for repeat trips (if I screw up and miscount something - if it's a customer extra then it's billed).

Where's your materials markup? Once again, unless doing a favor on a severe break for the "little old lady" on the corner, my mats get bumped.

Do your have a "Miscellaneous parts, hardware, and accessories" category? Mine flexes between $25 and $100 depending on the size and complexity of the job, and includes small supplies used in less than 1/2 of a sales or stocking container (box/bag)or a loose number (usually 10 or so) like screws, wire nuts, conduit connectors, couplings and straps and the like. It also loosely includes 10-14 AWG runs of CU wire less than 25' - more than that, I'll buy a reel and bill.

Consider a little more beneficial pricing:

3 BLKADR2 Split Bolt #2 AL-Cu 3@$5 = $15
1 BLKSEC2 Entrance Cap Weather Head #2 SEU $20
1 SQD-QOM100VH Circuit Breaker Main 100A 120/240V $100
WALSEU2/3AL #2-3 SEU Service Entrance Cable 20' @ $2/' = $40

Total "hard" (line item) supplies = $175

Misc. Supplies
6 BLKECS2 Cable Strap #2 SEU
2 S-CWA164 Reducing Washer 2" to 1-14"
1 BLKWT4 Connector 1-1/4" SEU Weather-Tite
1 BURPENA-1/2 Penentrox Oxygen Inhibitor
2 NEEC-1251-R Connector 1-1/4" SEU 1.1050
9 SCRHHD10X1-1/2 Screw Hex #10 x 1-1/2"
4 FASTENER Lag Bolts 1/4" x 1-1/2" 0.2500

Total Misc. Supplies = $50

New Supplies total (with a very modest markup) = $225.00

Labor:
3/6/05 - 1hr @ $25.00 $25.00
3/7/05 - 1hr @ $25.00 $25.00
Trip to supplier 2 hr@25 $50.00
3/7/05 - 2hr @ $25.00 $50.00
3/8/05 - 3hr @ $25.00 $75.00
Total Labor 7 Man-hours $225.00

Additonal Charges - Returned checks - $60.00

New total $510.00

My cold call rate is $80/hr - I'm a lot more likely to bill by the 1/2 hr for that rate. I usually bill at least $40/hr - that's for direct referrals and repeat customers. The only time I drop below that is for very good friends, and other contractors at the FD - then it's the going rate - $10/hr and pizza

I charged $25/hr doing electrical as a "handyman". Being licensed and insured is worth more.

I think you're shorting yourself - both in terms of hourly rate and materials. Of course, I don't know your competition and area, but give it some thought.

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 03-13-2005).]

Doug,

BGE is my supplier, but they don't carry SQ-D, so another check was written for another supplier.
Got the call on Sunday evening, Lineman shows up at my house. Cool, love to help. He thinks its a bad main. I find loose lugs throughout and a crackling Main.

Monday: Being the only thing we can replace without an inspection, I opted to change the main first, which was full of ladybugs and was crunchy and iffy, but it didn't fix all of the problems.

So we open the Meterbase, sure enough, corrosion city.

I pick up a meterbase at BGE, free-of-charge, there seems to be enough slack in the cables, and the lineman will see-no-evil if I can get a meterbase and he'll hook-up with no inspection.

Tuesday: OK, so I wait for him to show up to disconnect, and the weather knocks out the power... OK, so I climb a ladder and cut the drop myself so I can start to work. Then I find the SEU to be totally unsalvageable and rotted, and all of the fittings are solid fast.

Crap... third trip... get it all back together in 2.5 hours, which was the whole job, the rest being redone.

No inspection, saved the customer a thousand or so... easy.

Lineman didn't make it until Wedesday for hookup... Good thing I hooked up illegally or customer would have no power for four days.

I'm sure they really appreciated it...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-13-2005).]

On a Sunday evening I might consider charging overtime or double-time, perhaps also an Emergency Response Charge. You might also consider having a Travel/Service Charge, and also a minimum fee. I think the Service Charge alone would have been very helpful for you in this situation. You should also be charging for the time to go to the supplier.

Dave

P.S. $1000 job-10% discount= $900, not $280. There's a big difference between discounting it and giving it away.

Another invoice... This time is WAS a little old lady on oxygen during a power outage...

Transfer Switch Installation

Materials Used
Quantity--Description------------------------------Cost Each---------------Amount
6-------WireNut Wire Connectors--------------------0.0120------------------$0.06
1-------Twistlock Plug Male 120/240V 20A---------19.0280---------------$19.03
1-------Twistlock--Plug Female 120/240V 20A----25.2630----------------$25.26
1----Transfer Switch 120/240V 20A 6-Circuit-240.0430-----------------$240.04
4--------Screw Hex #10 x 1-1/2"-------------------0.0418------------------$0.16
20-------Cable 12/4 SOW---------------------------0.6342----------------$12.60
0---------Motor Oil SAE 30 Quart--------------------1.1900--------------$2.38
1--------Gasoline 87 Octane Gallon-----------------1.9900----------------$1.99
-----------------------------------------------------Subtotal------------------$301.52
----------------------------------------------------Sales Tax 6%-----------$18.09
----------------------------------------------------Total Materials---------$319.61
Labor
Time In-----Time Out----Hours-----Date-------Rate -------Total
13:10--------14:25-----------1.25-----3/8/05-----$23.38-----$29.22
16:05--------16:40-----------0.58-----3/8/05-----$23.38----$13.64
17:10--------17:55-----------0.75-----3/8/05-----$23.38----$17.53

------Total Labor------------2.58-------Man-Hours---------$60.39

------------Total Amount Paid----------------------------$380.00




---------1 bounced check------------($30.00)------------Total Bounced Checks
--------2 Trips to BGE @ 75 min--($15.00)------------Total fuel costs
--------------------------& $7.50 fuel--------2.5------------hours not billed
------------------------------------------------5.08------------Total Time

----------------------------------------------$15.39------------Money Left for Labor
------------------------------------------------$3.03------------Average hourly wage



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-13-2005).]

Revised my original response - had a fire call. Sorry

Let me start by saying I’m not Mr. Electric Success either. But I do understand some things.

Let me get this strait.
You own your own business.
You did some service repair.
You charged to the penny and last screw what materials cost you.
You charged a labor rate of $25 per hour which sounds more like a pay rate.
You charged to the .01 of an hour.
You did not charge a service call fee or figure in several trips.
You did not charge anything for overhead, profit, or figure extra for problems (like a bad check).

I can’t tell you what you numbers should be. I would have figured of charging 1 days rate of at least $400 (8 hours x $50). I don’t think you can figure a rate of less then $50 but it should be your numbers. Then about $200 for materials. Service work gets more money also. Add $50 for a 2nd trip if you foreseen that. Add $100 for leeway and misc. (like a 3rd trip or bad check). That come to $750 and that might be too low.

For the bad check fees you should charge the customer that. Don’t take a check the 2nd time. I don’t know if the local police will help you collecting. Writing bad checks is a crime but not enough is done about it. Right or wrong I may be doing a disconnect until I collect cash payment if I got stiffed.

A lot could be said about your situation. You should try reading all what has been said on this forum. Seems like a lot of guys are making the same mistakes.

To sum it up you are running your business like a job. You punch in an out to the minute on the job. You think your getting $25 an hour but wonder why you are broke. You turn in receipts to the customer, like you were buying material for a company with your cash and just want to be paid back.

You already know you lost on drive time, fuel, & material pick up time. How much of that $25 an hour is paying for taxes, retirement, insurance, accountants, truck upkeep, tools, equipment, advertising, collections, legal expenses, training, payroll, and PROFFIT.

You need to figure your overhead, come up with a real labor rate per hour & day. You need to charge mark up on material. Don’t itemize the repair bill. Just give the customer one number like $750.

You will need to do big changes or you will be better off working as an employee for an EC. Working for someone else gives you a lot more benefits and rights.

Tom

I guess I should mention that the bad checks were ones I wrote for materials... (not the customers checks...)

It's a self-perpetuating problem, Virgil. You aren't charging enough for the service, so you don't have the money for...materials, gas, another truck, advertising, tools. It's a strange concept for non-accountant types like us, but if your overhead is $35/hour and you're only getting $25/hour, you're losing $10/hour. The only thing that will fix it is to lower your expenses, or increase your average annual hours invoiced, or increase your hourly rate.

Dave

The Transfer Switch Deal was a real humdinger...

The "Heart-String-Tension" scenario played heavily...

Power out, lady on oxygen...

The second trip to BGE was for the correct sized chord ends... I'd asked for 20A, but got 30A Twistlocks... Didn't he notice the 12-4 SOW? He got that right! Grrrrr!

Ironically, both these jobs were local, within a few miles of my house, but the important thing is distance from the supplyhouse, not home!

Then, the rest of the story. I finally get everything connected, then I check the oil before a test run... it's empty... bought on ebay and drained for shipping.... OK, another trip, this time to the gas station, which isn't reflected in the invoice breakdown...

Well, gas station doesn't have name-brand 30W oil, just multi-viscosity... so, I buy the cheap crap. Mistake...

Oh you see this coming don't you...

No I didn't have to buy her a generator, thank God....

But after a 30 second run, the oil foamed just like a blown head gasket in a water cooled engine, but this things air-cooled... Huhn?

So a call to my sax player / head mechanic friend. Water or Air he says...

So I drain (in 20ºF mind you...) and flush with Kero (no charge for the two gallons of Kero I ruined) to rid the foamed oil. OK, second try, same result.

Go back next day and neighbor got to be the hero and I'm stuck with a Quart of Pennzoil SAE 30W...

*shaking head ruefully*

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-13-2005).]

Maybe you would have been better off saying it needs the entire service replaced from the beginning. Do the whole service, have inspection, know everything is all good, make less trips, and make more $$.

The 2nd job it should be more like $500 material, at least $125 labor, and maybe $40 service call. For a total of about $665. Maybe more if that is the only income for the day.

Old person or not you need $$ to feed your family too. If you want to do charity work that is great. But know the differance between a paying customer and labor donation. If it is a donation then it can be a tax credit. Everyone elce is making money off this deal (supply house, gas station, hardware store) why should you do it for almost free.

Why do you figure to the ten-thousanth of a dollar ($0.0001)? For small quanities it makes no differance. Why not round up to the dollar (after you figure material MU). For total price you could round up to $5 or $10 and it will not break most deals.

Tom

I no longer show a materials mark-up for two reasons:

Sales tax increased...

I have to make up 6% of whatever difference between what I pay and what I get for materials, so no mark-up no sales tax. (Tax paid upon purchase).

A contractor - a very successful one- refused to pay my mark-up. Period. I guess if it works for her... (?)

People like to argue about prices, and will make me put in used old crap from a box in the garage if I leave it up to them for materials... If I charge the mark-up, they want to supply instead, then all hell breaks lose... I'm sure you have been there...

The only way to have control of the materials is to sell the idea that they are getting them cheaper through me than they can themselves. It makes sense to them... Contrators discounts and such, which I don't even get... I have too low of volume sales.



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-13-2005).]

Invoice #3

Troubleshoot and Replace Main Circuit Breaker

Materials Used
Quantity-Description--------------------------------------Cost Each------Amount
1-----------Circuit Breaker 2 Pole 100 Ampere GE---------30.3300---------$30.33
1-----------Penentrox Oxidation Inhibitor----------------0.9936------------$0.99
-----------------------------------------Subtotal--------------------$31.32
---------------------------------------Sales Tax 6%----------------$1.88
------------------------------------Total Materials-----------------$33.20
Labor
Time In---Time Out-Hours---Date---Rate--------------Total
18:30--------19:30----1--------3/8/05---$25.00----------$25.00
14:00--------15:00----1--------3/9/05---$25.00----------$25.00
---------Total Labor---2-Man-hours------------------------$50.00
----------------------------Sales Tax 6%----------------$3.00
--------------------------------Total Labor---------------$53.00

---------------------------------Total Amount Due------------$86.20

*One Hour Minimum Charge per Visit Consumer Sales Tax is required on Labor for any Work involving repairs, troubleshooting, or otherwise unable to qualify as Capital Improvement work.

----------

OK, why the minimum charge here?

Job was refered by a friend whom I purchase firewood from... my main heating source. I owe him $50 for the last load...

The dwelling was rented by his daughter and I'm billing the landlord... whom I don't know and there's no love lost by charging full, and all the net will go to my firewood debt, so I needed $50.

I doubt I see the money for a while, anyway.

So, I'm +$72.47 on paper, but I need about $140 for the bank monday morning or two more checks bounce which means I need $200 by Tuesday moring in order to be a $0 for the past week...

We'll ignore Friday for now... I got about 6 hours in... so another $150 for the week but it isn't at a billing stage yet, probably Tuesday before I'm done.

I'm not going to mention how behind on my bills I am... Oops, I guess I just did...





[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-13-2005).]

If I was in your shoes I would charge as much as I could. Invoice #3 $250 is probibly not unreasonable for an after hours emergency call. The trouble is the work is done. If you did not talk prices for this job yet you could have problems collecting a fair amount.

"A contractor - a very successful one- refused to pay my mark-up. Period." If your talking about a GC one way they make more money is by beating down the subs prices. No problem just tell your supplier you will not pay a MU to them. You might try that with everything you buy.

It does not make it easy if you need seperate labor & material for state taxes on the bill.

"People like to argue about prices"
Sometimes it is how you sell the job and when you give them prices (before of after). It sounds like the customers beat your prices down so much your in the poor house. You have to stand firm on a price and be ready to walk away.

So what if you have to charge the customer sales tax. You still need a material MU to pay for your time picking it up, extas, waist, warrenty, etc. Unless you jack up you labor rate to make up for it. I don't know what you spent on material last year but wouldn't it be good to have about 30% of that in the bank right now.

It sounds like you are affraid to charge the customer any real amount of money. You need to work on this.
Tom

[This message has been edited by Active 1 (edited 03-13-2005).]

LK,

When I owned a convenience store, my mark-up was usually 30%, and I paid sales tax (retail) on the 142% (roughly) of the wholesale price.

The way I understand WV tax law:

Now if I buy an item for $10 + $0.60 Tax from BGE, and sell it for $15, I'm really selling it for $14.15 + 6% tax, which is $.85 in tax and I owe (or am fraudulent for) $0.15 in Consumer Sales tax.

Labor other than Capital Improvement is another issue.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-13-2005).]

I've posted almost the following before almost verbatum but here it is again:

Operating costs for a one man operation. Note, these are "real" costs:
1. A good family medical program - $700 per month minimum.
2. Vehicle, gas, ins., payments, depreciation, tires, tune up, repairs, etc. - $670
3. Office supplies including stamps - $30
4. Acct and attorney, if and when needed - $50
5. Magazines and books $40
6. Business taxes - $100
7. Telephone - $50
8. Cellular phone - $100
9. Travel & entertainment - $50
10. Seminars and Trade Shows - $125
11. Uniforms - even just jeans and shirts - $45
12. Small tools - $15
13. Software and upgrades - $30
14. Marketing & Advertising - $200
15. Office Equipment depreciation - $75
16. Liability Insurance - $300
17. Workers Comp OR Disability insurance - $125
18. Bad Debt - $100
19. Guarantee work $100
20. Future Capital Expenditures - $100
21. Owners draw ($1000 weekly) - $4333.00
22. Bookkeeping - ($150 per week) $650

That comes to about $7950 per month. Anything less and you're kidding yourself. Divide that by about an average of 32 "production" hours per week at 46 weeks for a total of 1472 man hours per year, or about 122 man hours per month. Divide that $7950 by the 122 hours and you get $65 per hour - COST of doing business. Add the profit you want.

The overhead cost items listed above are far from being excessive, but are realistic as to the true cost of operating, it you want to treat yourself as a legimate business owner. I don't see how anyone can operate without charging anything less than a minimum of $70 per hour.

Charge that and you still don't get the paid sick days, vacation days, paid holidays, pension or 401K, or any of the other perks you had when you just had a job.

http://www.masterplumbers.com/utilities/costcalc/

Try this link for cost and overhead to come up with an hourly rate.

Here is the labor rate calculator I use. Click on the download link if you have MS Excel. http://nosecrets.com/Download.htm
If you are honest with the numbers (like number of hours booked per day) you will come out in the $50/hr range. The $60/hr is probibly more realistic but still being on the minimum side.

Here is the WV tax information: http://www.state.wv.us/taxrev/taxdoc/tsd310.pdf

A lot of EC work would go under capital improvment and would not be taxible to the customer.

Tom

One thing I have learned is that running a business is NOT buying a job.
Virgil you are buying a job cheaply. If you do not start running a business and at least doubling your labor rate and adding markup to your materials you will always be broke.
Thing like taxes, social security, insurance, vehicle costs, telephone costs, housing and office costs are always going to take money from you. You have to add them to every hour you work. Also look at pay rates for other licensed holders in your area. What would you have to pay a licensed employee to actually do the work without you personally bieng there? You should at least double that for your own salary. If you feel you canot do so, it time to work for some one else.
Buying a job usually causes a business to fail. You will never be able to build a big enough financial cushion to cover the slow months we all have, let alone the sudden emergencies that almost always come at the worst time.
You are smart enough to see this, now act on it please.

You probably think you're providing a good deal to your customers and that's your strategy. It doesn't work. To charge such low prices, you have to hurry, use cheap materials, rush to get to the next job to get the next paycheck, you probably won't be able to come back for free and provide the occasional warranty work that needs doing, your customer will become the enemy because every minute spent talking, every time they want a change, it cuts into the little bit of time you have to do their job. The NEXT job will always be the one that will make you money but it won't happen. You'll end up hating what you do an if you're stubborn like me, you'll do it for years anyway.

I speak from experience. I made lots and lots of business mistakes, charging too little was one of my first. It took me almost 3 years to finally learn that if I charged more, I would be happier, make more money, and provide a better product and service. Others were telling me but I wasn't ready to listen until I was almost broke and trying to figure out how to buy gas for my truck to get to the next job.

Don't judge your customer by your pocketbook.

Those that dont buy won't buy no matter how low your price is and those that will buy don't have any idea what it costs anyway so whatever price you give is the right price.

You don't want the customer that is interested in price only. They know they're buying junk and are unhappy with the purchase from the moment they sign the contract.

Double your labor rate and markup materials by 100% on small stuff and 50% on stuff over $50. Give away the 10 cent screws for free, if you loose half your customers you're still making more money and at least you'll have more freetime.

And then take the time to provide great work. That's the secret to success. Great work. Your new customers who make enough to afford you will recommend you to their friends and if you can survive until that happens and keep doing great work, you'll survive.

Just my humble opinion from my own experience.

BWA-HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

(Ahem)

Sorry, Maintenanceguy, that made me laugh.

The most I've ever been paid was $16 per hour (last August) from someone else (subbing not counted) and the only benefits were the $15 per day per-diem which was a joke in itself.

Even in Wisconsin, where apprentices were making twice what I was (literally- I was making $12.50 per hour and NO benefits, guys there ranged from $25 to $32 plus FULL benefits! I just have the word SUCKER written on my face and everyone knows it!

So, I don't quite have the perspective to understand how I could be better off working for someone else unless they were going to offer some real money.


OK, uh, anybody hiring with a substantial sign-on bonus (at least a loan) and $40K per year plus full benefits?

Didn't think so.


I've discovered that people do like my work, but they're not willing to even pay T&M (@ $25 per and no mark-up).

I've discovered two truths:

1) If you make halfway decent money on a job, (say more than an average of $20 per hour) then you never get called back...

2) Lose your ass and make less than minimum wage (or even pay out of your pocket to fininsh the job) and they LOVE you and you're a hero!!!

I swear to God, I've never had a repeat customer when I was financially pleased with the job.

I think I just want someone to make me a decent offer on my tools... I'm done.

I'm to the point physically that I need a desk job, may be estimating (which I'm lousy at) or something... dunno... My hands hurt constantly, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, Trigger Finger, Arthritis... you all know or are very lucky...

Anyway, my customer should be home now, he was away on a trip for the weeknd...

I do appreciate all the help, I'm not playing devil's advocate here, this is a friggin' real problem.

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-14-2005).]

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-14-2005).]

Sparky,

After reading all these posts, it is quite evident to me, that you like what you do, and are probably pretty good at it.

However, and take this with a grain of salt:

You need help in the sales dept.
You need help in running a business.


May I suggest two things here.......

First, maybe look into hiring a sales person to sell jobs for you. You take the calls, dispatch a sales guy to "sell the job" for you. Let them quote the price, you pay them 10% of the job, you do the work.

You sound too pasive when it comes to charging people an appropriate amount of money for your time.

Second, take a night course or start reading on how to run a "profitable" business.


Like I stated, take it with a grain of salt.
I'm not knocking you here, I'm just forming an opinion based on your posts.


I hate to hear about guys loosing their business in the first 5 years.


Good luck.


Dnk.......

Maybe it's time to move someplace that is a little less West Virginia and a little more real world. Based on all of your posts in this thread Virgil you are screwed. We've been hearing the same story for years from you. I have come to the conclusion that it is not going to work where you are. It's that simple. Get the hell out of there if you want to make any kind of life for yourself.

You sound like your in a deep hole and don't know what to do. The easiest answer is to get a job working for an EC. If the job is too physical for you maybe a supply house or box store.
http://www.acinet.org/acinet/wages1...de=472111&stfips=54&x=72&y=7

2003 Electrician wage report for WV.
bottom 25% were getting $14.47
1/2 were making $18.90
the upper 75% got $22.22 an hour

You may be in a depressed town. But somewhere in your state you can make a living.

I seen people like you come for a job in the past. Had trade schooling and 10 or more years exp. But because they did not believe they were worth much they asked too little. They got a job right away but were making less then a 2 year guy.

Some job seeking tips:
-Be clean cut (shower, shave, hair cut)
-Wear nice clothes (a bit better than what you would wear to work)
-Don't chew or smoke
-Be confident
-Don't tell them you never made more then $xx
-Be firm on a starting wage you are worth (shoot for at least the what 1/2 the other sparks are making)
-Be flexable and not demanding (you will work any day, any time, any where
-Don't argue
-Call EC out of the phone book, a lot of places want a person but don't have an ad (once there is an job ad you have a lot of competition)
-Don't be negitive about anything
-Don't curse
-Be energetic, motivated, & positive

Once you get the job keep doing the above.

Now I'm not looking to cause a problem here,
BUT,
I'm not one to kick a nice guy while he is down.
Virgil is the sort of guy that will always hop in and give his advice on different matters and he has done in the past.
He is one of the original Members here at ECN.
Let's just give something back, could we?, to help one of our's out?.
And before you start bagging me, just think about this for a second, how would you like to be in his shoes?.
Be in the Chat room tomorrow!.

Hi,
I see a problem with your invoice...

Why would you give the cost of parts to the customer?

It seems that you are setting yourself up for the old "i can buy that for $2 at Lowes" response...

You are losing money by charging by the hour!

Flat rate variable billing is the ONLY way to go in this day and age.

-regards

Greg

Mike,

Alas, I feel it is an exercise in futility, for I have lost my enthusiasm.

I need to embrace failure like an old friend,
and admit it is over.

Tools for sale...

Mustang, you're correct. I simply need to scribble an arbitrary figure on a napkin. To hell with the knowledge of where their money goes. Imagine what I'd save on ink cartridges alone!

[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 03-16-2005).]

maintanceguy...great breakdown on the cost of doing business.It is very helpfull to me, as I am currently trying to redo my price per manhour due to overhead increases.

shortcircuit

Sparky66 sorry if I was to harsh. You do seem to know what your doing. You have a nice web site. So stand up and go back out there.

Try stoping by all the local GC and remodelers. Maybe some business or small factories too. Give them a hello, and your card. If you pick up a job get some up front $.

Best of luck,

Tom

hi,
if you need work..try this..

WORK SAFELY! you aint worth nothing hurt or dead! take two and think it through!

PLAN YOUR WORK! you will waste a lot of time running back and forth if you dont have everything you need and have the work planned..in electrical work planning is a major part of the job!

NETWORK! get out there and talk to people..keep your ear to the ground..talk it up! dont be bashful!

BE PROMPT AND ON TIME..IF YOU CANT MAKE IT...CALL!

DONT DISREGARD THE SMALL JOB/CALL..THEY SOMETIMES TURN INTO BIG JOBS OR REFERRALS!

BE A SALESMAN..BE SUGGESTIVE! do not be too pushy or too desperate! but sell your products.

Try to find what you are good at and be better than everybody else! FIND YOUR NICHE MARKET!

Branch out into new markets...low voltage, communications, distributed energy, solar, backup power, lighting, enmergency lighting...whatever!

DO NOT LET EMOTIONS PLAY A ROLE IN YOUR WORK..

DONT TAKE SHORTCUTS AND DO QUALITY WORK THAT MEETS THE CODE! The successful contractor is a person who knows the code and how it pertains to the work he is doing..you can do work cheaper if you know the code..if you dont you will do a lot of unecessary or substandard work..AVOID THAT PITFALL..

Get paid for ALL the work you do..all those itemized list and number you have put together..i hope you are getting paid for that or do you just have a lot of free time?

DONT USE CHEAP MATERIAL TO TRY AND SAVE A BUCK...USE QUALITY MATERIALS...most people like that...nobody wants to find out that you used the cheapest parts..besides they will cost you in call backs etc..ALWAYS buy a few more parts than you need for a job..this will give you some extra parts you can use later...if i need two 2 gang boxes for a job i will buy three..that will leave me one extra that i will use on the next job..what do you do with extra material? throw it away? no use if it is NEW.

USE QUALITY TOOLS!

GET A SIGNED CONTRACT FOR ANYTHING OVER $500 and get a DEPOSIT..I get 40% or I dont do the job unless they are repeat customers..then I still get a signed contract and 25% deposit...sometimes if it is a short job get 1/2 at the start and 1/2 at the end..otherwise go 40 to start-30 at rough-in-30 on completion..NOT INSPECTION....NEVER DO ANY JOB WITHOUT A SIGNED CONTRACT AND A DEPOSIT..YOU WILL REGRET IT. show up in court without a signed contract and the judge will tell you that any REAL businessman gets it in writing..without it you might get a settlement...with it he will rule in your favor

Watch out for GC's that you dont know..if you get a call from a gc saying he is looking for a new electrician..watch out! dont fall for that "I am a GC so you have to do things my way"..they are out to screw you! GET IT IN WRITING!

YOUR BILLING RATE IS ONLY 1/3 of what is should be...dont tell anyone what that is!

stop wasting time with all of those numbers...i can send you an excel sheet that works as an invoice and a bill...just sell your work.

I could have gotten triple what you cahrged for those jobs..you may get a lot of sub work that way!

clean yourself up and be confident...that is worth money to some folks they want a confident guy not some smuck! comb your nappy head..put on some smelly stuff!

try to get your name on your truck and have a name that people will remember and like..one that is catchy! Discount Electric..ASAP electric...use your own name if you want but look the part...those fancy vans with all the graphics on them dont show up at your place for $25 an hour! that wont cover coffee!

never show any material prices on any invoice or bill...that is none of their business..second never quote by the hour or set prices...go look at every job and bid what you think it will cost you in time and labor then add some profit..you are in business to make money!

CHARGE WHAT THE MARKET WILL BEAR! THIS IS AMERICA! if you can get $3000 for a 200A service more power to you!
sell the job for as much as you can...never take a job just to get the work...you will lose and be frustrated...if you dont get what you want move on you dont need that kind of customer..always finish the work as quick as possible and smooze the client...

never bill the same price for the same job...always increase the next same job a few dollars..sell a 200 amp service for as much as you can i get $1800 where i am.

put an ad in the local "Service directory" of the newspaper...list your price for wiring a house per sqf...start at about $2 per sqf..get a signed agreement and a few bucks in mobilization and commitment in the form of a PAYMENT that way when it all falls apart you have at least a few bucks..set a fee for a trip charge ...i get $45 just to show up...if they balk at that dont worry you dont need that customer..

then once you get the job..you can up that sqf price by making sure that that is MINIMUM required by nec...anything and everything after that is extra..

i have done this myself and have seen some jobs go up to $20K by the time it was all said and done..

another thing you can do is use a toll free number in a statewide paper...that will get some calls from outside your area..

just watch out because you will get a lot of calls from people looking for work and sales..

try to sell yourself as a contractor for hire to commercial or industrial clients..most places could use a contract electrician..try $35 to $45 an hour...

if you want to come to alaska and work i can get you on a 2 week on two week of schedule or a 4 and 1...that a couple thousand a week...room and board paid..its is just cold as hell!..you would need to get a license here unless you have one already...they reciprocate with a few places..and will look at anybody who took a test. (experiror or other)

Job Vacancy Announcement
Company Name:
No: Proj No:

Recruitment Opening Date:
03/15/2005 Recruitment Closing Date:
03/29/2005 Approx. Job Start Date:
03/30/2005 Job Location:
Other AK

Job Title: Electrical Superintendent Salary/Wage Rate: DOE

No. Positions Required: 1 No. People Required: 1 Rotation: None

Approx. Job Duration: 2-6 months Employment Status: F\T-Temporary

General Duties: Positions reports to Manager or as directed. Employee will be responsible for all phases of project management including quality control, hiring, safety, materials, subcontractors, scheduling, estimating and cost accounting. Position will be responsible to process project scope changes between engineering, construction management, subcontractors and client. Position is responsible for project final construction inspection, turnover package preparation and submission. Position will interface with local labor union to ensure ongoing relationships. ---we need a lot of electricians and E/I techs up here...steak on wed and prime rib on sundays!

hope that helps..thats about all the advice i could think of at the moment..maybe it isnt worth anything but if it helps great!

good luck brother..

sorry if i mispelled anything everybody!

ok i will shut up now!

-regards

greg



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-16-2005).]

The good people on this site give me faith(everyone that posted replies to sparky66 especially Greg and you sparky). Sparky, sorry I don't have any good advice for you, as a one man show for about 18 months I can certainly relate to some of what you're going through. I would just like to say, in whatever you decide to do, try not to give up on yourself. All good electricians, like yourself, have this built into them. Remember those really tough jobs that only got completed because you were too determined or too stuborn to let them get the best of you.
Every day sucking air is a gift. Life is short and I hope you can find some time enjoy it. All the best to you and your family.