In a clothes closet- 410.8 covers the type of Luminares (Fixtures) permitted. Seems pretty straight forward too me but I still get Contractors and Homeowners that want to use a keyless bulb holder. Duh??

I have taken the stand that I will not give final approval until this requirement is met. So remove the "Keyless" put a blank cover on it and call me in the morning, so to speak. In reality, call me when you have a Listed luminare (Fixture) installed. Meantime only a temp when you blank it up. Must be getting mean in my old age.

George, your not mean, you are just doing your job and enforcing the electrical code. It's why they hired you for. Now my only gripe about electrical inspectors is when sometimes they want to make up thier own code - you know - the code according to Billy Bob. Or else when if they are incorect about a code and refuse to even discuss the subject. But never do I get upset with an inspector who calls me out on something if I did it wrong. Thats his job.

They don't want to spend $20-$50 on a flouresant fixture, they want the $5 porcillin. "It's a closet." they'll say... I'll say, "Yes, it is, and by code needs to be placed in this location and/or be covered, or flouesant, and covered and be here...." I go through it everytime I put a light in a closet. Then you have to explain why.... Fire, combustables, etc. Time is money, what I waste explaining it, it would already be done.

A contractor should have done the explaining before you got there... Homeowner edjucation is his job, your job is to make sure he did his.

Simular note: Last week a friend of my mother-in-law's told me a horrifying story or when her house burned down. Her son came home with a guest late one night, pulled out some sheets from a linen closet with a door switch, and a bare bulb. Some sheets were left against the bulb as her sone walked away and left the door partially open. This was in the hallway, the dog woke them up, and the hallway was engulfed. They had to jump out the second story window into trees and shrubs. Everyone got hurt in some way, but made it out, including the dog that they had to throw out the window. By the time the fire dept got there that whole floor of the house, and the one next door was going up.

I think I'm going to just start with that story, rather than, "Well ya see there's this Code..."

George, You are right ! Don't let them get away with the fire hazard.
I used to explain how easy it is to start a fire with a bare light bulb.
As of this morning I will no longer do that. I just came from a fire (yes electrical in origin) one of the suspicious items we noted was a large wad of paper toweling bundled up next to a bare bulb in the basement. The other suspicious item was a window air conditioner plugged into a two wire lamp cord.
It's bad enough when electricity causes a fire but even worse when people try to make it look like an accidental electrical fire.
Alan - Inspector.

Many local towns ammend their electrical to require all closets to have an approved light. With an exception for a linnon or for small sizes like less then 2' wide. The EC should know better then to use a keyless.

Could you also say all closet lighting outlets have to have an approved closet light fixture. A box with a blank is an lighting outlet? But a blank is not an approved closet light. Tell them they could rip out the box or put in an approved closet light.

Those PC florescents cost me less the $20.

Tom

George I can certainly agree with not signing off with the keyless in place.

I do not see how you can hold things up with a blank installed.

The NEC does not require anything in a closet.

This to me would be like a cop giving out a speeding ticket to someone with a fast car because they 'know' that at some point they will speed.

JMO, Bob

Active 1, there is no requirement that there be a light in the closet. Nor is ther a ban on having a junction box in the closet.

The reason that we may meet resistance when we say "you can't out a keyless in many closets" is that there are millions of us who grew up in homes with keyless lights in closets. Indeed, that's often the only place we've seen them used. I'm not surprised if folks don't know what a 'keyless' light is until I say 'like you've seen in a closet.' (Then the 'light goes on,' so to speak.)

The ban on keyless lights in closets is fairly recent, having been added to the code in '93 or '96, I think.

If the plans spec out a light in the closet then you would need a light in the closet or re-submit the plans. Told you I was mean. If there is a blanked up box in the closet and nothing requiring a light in the closet then Brother George will so indicate on the inspection report- Approve the job and move on with his life.

Pre-dates '93, they only changed 'area' with 'space' in its language. Don't have any older books....

'like you've seen in a closet.' I have heard that too, but try not to say it.

Funny, my 1931 house has a keyless in several closets. They're dead, from when I killed all the K&T in my insulated attic. They didn't get re-done in the re-wiring of that area.

George wont they just put the keyless back up after you leave?

George


I got you now, your not mean if that is how things are handled in your area.

The inspections in my area are strictly NEC inspections, I have never had an inspector want to look at the prints and compare them to what is actually installed.

I would be in deep @@@@ if they did, our jobs almost never match the prints that where submitted to the building dept.

Around here everything is subject to change on a minute to minute basis.

"I have never had an inspector want to look at the prints and compare them to what is actually installed."

In our area they require print filed with permit, changes are allowed, provided you update permit, and they are not rigid on changes, provided you filed update.

Just check any towns fire logs, you would be suprised, how many fires are caused by keyless closet lights comming in contact with combustable material.


[This message has been edited by LK (edited 06-26-2005).]

LK If we relocate an electric room maybe the prints get updated.

Change / move / delete lighting fixtures...err ...luminaires I would be very surprised (shocked even) if the building dept gets updated drawings.

The exception to this are Fire Alarm Drawings I must work from the original stamped set, no copy's and changes must be approved. But for me Fire Alarm prints do not go through the building dept, they go through the fire dept.

Bob

I refer to the plans quite often to settle issues on inspections. Contractor / Homeowner say " It's a storage room" Plans say it's a bedroom. contractor say it's a setting room- Plans say it's a dining room. And my personal favorite "It's a sewing room" I guess the Inspector has to have something to refer to. In our area we ask that a set of approved plans be on the job site for inspections.

[This message has been edited by George Little (edited 06-26-2005).]

I know the jobs don't go in per plans on residential -Silly Rabbit.
But there some things that we need to be sure happen and I feel very strongly about 410.8 and the plans are a tool I use for this compliance.

Yes they may well put the keyless back after I leave as well as put the Halo 310 trim up after I made them change it to the covered lens trim but Hey! I can't police that and it was fine when I inspected it.

Bob,

In the industrial and commercial office sites, they have been lax for years on both getting permits, and having work inspected, some claim they are not subject to inspections, this discussion continues to come up, repair and maintain is one thing, but new plant construction, or office fit-up's should have permits and inspections, and i see more areas requiring these jobs to be filed, which usually require a sealed print and inspection form, some of these jobs are getting a plan review, and some are approved without the process, but every area has different ways of operating, so this may not hold true for all areas.
When these sites are inspected, the agency doing the inspection needs up to date information, and if it is a design build project as many are today, what you are saying is exactly what many do.
___________________________________________
"I would be in deep @@@@ if they did, our jobs almost never match the prints that where submitted to the building dept."

"Change / move / delete lighting fixtures...err ...luminaires I would be very surprised (shocked even) if the building dept gets updated drawings."
____________________________________________
Right, 99% of the time when this work is done, they don't, update or apply for permits, and every excuse from, it dosen't apply to us, or i will be thrown off the job by the building management, if i apply for a permit, to the other guy is not getting permits, but i got hit, for not permitting, some of these jobs, and it was not easy to recover from the mess it left, Yes you can go thru a red light, but one time or another, there will be a ticket or an accident.
In my opinion updating prints helps everyone, but i can see you point on this issue.

"But there some things that we need to be sure happen and I feel very strongly about 410.8 and the plans are a tool I use for this compliance."

Keep up the good work George.



[This message has been edited by LK (edited 06-26-2005).]

LK we have permits and we get inspections.

Plans are turned in at the time of permit filling.

But I kid you not, the inspectors in this area are not 'plan' inspectors.

As long as the job meets the NEC (well the MEC) it is signed off.

Until I started hanging out at these forums I had never heard of an inspector comparing the prints to what is actually installed, I was very surprised to find that out.

I had always looked at that as an issue between the customer and the EC or GC as the case may be.

What we do have is customers representative stopping by the jobs all the time taking pictures and verifying that the customer is getting what they paid for.

I doubt our inspectors would have the time to check for deviations from the prints.

This may be different in small residential construction here but I do not know.

As you said each area has different methods.

Looks like if I moved to another area I would have to learn new methods.

Bob,

We had a big fit-up job held up in the town where Hot Line inspects, and yes, the plan review process takes time, in his town the work load backs up, i guess it's a manpower thing, but when the time pressure in on the EC, it can get pretty heavy.

By the way LK, I did not mean to give the impression that we do it right here and you do it wrong there.

Just different.

Bob

I understand, every area operates under different conditions, and i know you are involved in some pretty large projects, that can give you a real work out.

Sorry,

I did not mean it was an NEC requirement for a closet light. I was just saying it is a common local ammendment around here to have a light. If that's what you want in your area then try to make that ammendment. Not much you can do with out the ammendment except prohibit keyless.

Tom

Sounds like a contractor trying to hose his customer with an extra and the owner challanged him. COntractor knows when he bids what he needs in the closet. Even if it were an extra then it should have been addressed long before you got there. Maybe he thought George would miss it???

Hey E57 if your paying $20-$50 for closet fluorescents I've got some fixtures for you!