hi,
do you live where 14/2 is allowed on switch legs on 20A circuits?

the practice is very common here in Arkansas and seems to pass inspection..

myself i never even buy #14 wire..i do not think you are saving anything by wiring this way...

thanks for any replies..

mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 09-09-2004).]

This practice is wrong no matter what part of the country you live in.


I disagree with you about #14. I have yet to hear a convincing argument against it.


You are saving things by using #14 whenever possible: money, natural resources and labor.

Peter

Do you guys have a legally adopted amendment to 240.4(D)? If not, I think there are some electricians in your neck of the woods who should invest in liability insure.

There are a number of areas in Arkansas that have no inspections,I am going to one such area next week to rough in a house for a friend.

P.S. I am bringing a camera.

Edited to add P.S.

[This message has been edited by NORCAL (edited 09-10-2004).]

Not permitted as described, and there was a Formal or Official Interpretation many years ago from NFPA indicating such.

The conductors are part of the branch circuit.

ctwireman,
the problem with 14/2 is that it will inevitably get overloaded by either adding to a circuit or using a 20a breaker on the circuit by a homeowner or other electricians who have a problem with tripping. another problem is that 14/2 doesnt allow for ANY expansion..i can use 12/2 on a 15A breaker...then when the day comes that a new outlet or something else comes along uou can upsize the breaker with no problem..

the cost difference between 12/2 and 14/2 wont save anything that would amount to anything..as far as natural resources and other stuff...i willleave that alone..if you are counting the pennies that you may save that is up to you..

regards

mustang

Mustang, what would keep a homeowner or other electrician (used loosely here) from installing a 30, 40 , or 50 amp breaker on a #12 to remedy a tripping 20 amp circuit.

I can't agree that a 15 amp circuit will "will inevitably get overloaded".

If you are adding to any circuit, it must be evaluated before arbitrarily adding outlets or loads to it, and if it is borderline, then a "new" circuit would be needed.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 09-10-2004).]

Hi,
I just wanted to add that I am not picking on Arkansas. Some of the best electricians in the country are from here. I am from here myself. Arkansas went from no licenses in the 70's to City licenses then the state took over in the 80's which improved the quality of the work... I recently moved to a new part of Arkansas and after visitng a few jobs that were underway i noticed some code violations...i was told all of the 100,000 homes in this area are done the same way and are full of old code violations like 14/2 on 20A circuits..no slack at the box on rough-in..incorrect 3 way and 4 way switching..no in use covers etc..they are still building them that way..you can't stir the pot or you could lose your license by stirring up trouble.....i know that the state electrical board is pretty tough on violators in general but i cant explain why they would look the other way on some of these issues..

if you complain you could face retribution..

i just try to exceed what is in the code..i am not perfect myself

just some thoughts on the subject

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 09-10-2004).]

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 09-10-2004).]

roger,
thanks for the reply...i have been an electrician for over 25 years..i can't remember how many 20A breakers I have seen on #14 wire..IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN..we all know the procedure for adding to an exisitng circuit..the problem is the folks who do not..

in the code there is a rule that you must plan for future expansion...when you install 14/2 on a general purpose branch circuit...you are not doing anybody any favors..yes I can use a 15A breaker and run 14/2 from the panel to some devices and meet the code..but..there is more advantages and benfits from using #12 over #14...

there is Nothing that would stop anybody from building a bomb and setting it off in their garage either...if someone exceeds the ampacity of a conductor by installing OCPD'S that are not rated for use with the conductors then this person is not qualified to be doing electrical work...i cant remember how many AC units I have seen in the world that have #10 running off a 40 or 50A breaker...if you have been in the trade long you surely have seen the same problem..

we cant stop unqualified persons from doing electrical work..

regards

mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 09-10-2004).]

Depending on the A/C unit nameplate data, this may be compliant.
90.8(A) does not contain the mandatory term SHALL but it is always good practice to plan wiring systems for the future.

Mustang, exactly, and why is overfusing a #14 anymore dangerous than overfusing a larger conductor?

As far as John, is correct that this can and is probably with in code.

For example using a motor load.

#12 THHN for a 3 HP 1 phase 230 v All parts and conductors rated 75 deg

Article 430.148 3 HP = 17 amps

430.22(A) requires conductors be sized at 125 % of FLA

17 x 125% = 21.25 amps

Table 310.16, #12 @ 75 deg column = 25 amps

Table 430.52 allows up to 250% for inverse time breaker

17 x 250% = 42.5 amps

240.4 states we can go up to the next STANDARD size breaker = 45 amp breaker

Roger



[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 09-10-2004).]

electricman,
thanks for the reply. when i run across an installation like this i always look at the name plate..90% of the time the nameplate will indicate the LARGEST SIZE OCPD recommended and 90% of the time the breaker will exceed this..

example...

a 20 year old home gets a new condenser unit, the company that sells that unit will install a new disco but will NOT refeed the unit with the proper conductors...so they just pop in a 40 or 50a brkr and call it good..surely there are other folks out there who have run across this senario?

-regards

mustang

roger,
i don't know who John is but the topic was 14/2 on switch legs..not how many articles there are on OCPD that are allowed to exceed the current carrying capacity of a conductor..i see your point though..

my point was that it is VERY common and being allowed on current inspections..

and the argument that it is just good practice to provide some room for expansion on circuits, panels etc..

you wouldnt want to sell a customer a 32 ckt panel and then fill it up would you?

thanks for the replies..

mustang

Mustang, sorry, John is Electricman2.

The answer to 14/2 allowed on a 20 amp branch circuit is as already stated, "no" and along with Ryans reference of 240.4(D), the articles pointed to in 240.4(E) are pertinent.

As far as the thread not staying on topic, if you go back and read the posts, you will see it was drifting before I posted, and you will also notice my posts were addressing points or statements that were coming up.

BTW there was only one article that allows it in my post.

Roger

roger,
thanks for your input.

-regards

mustang

Mustang
Sorry if I may have led the thread astray. However my comment was meant to point out that sometimes what may seem to be a violation may not be. I applaud you however for being so conscientious in your work. I do agree that when running receptacle circuits, why use 14 when it costs no more in labor to use 12. The extra capacity is well worth the penny or so per foot.

[This message has been edited by electricman2 (edited 09-10-2004).]