Hi,
Is there any problem with locating the required disconnect for a spa/hot tub by using a 100A Load Center mounted on an adjacent wall? The load center will serve the spa/hot tub and a new underground pool.
key points to watch are, #8 solid to any copper piping to pump housing/case, required outlet no closer than 5' no further than 10'..gfi protection for everything..

thanks for any comments...

As long as the conditions in 680.12 are met, I dont see a problem.

if you mean that the grnd wire has to be #10 or larger or that the disconnect is a minimum of 5 feet from the inside wall of the spa..then i think i am ok...insulated ground too..

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 09-09-2004).]

Is the disconnect within eye sight of the motor? The reason for that question is that sometimes the motor is on 1 side of the spa and the discoonect is on the other side. Just a thought.

harold,
the disconnect is a sub panel 5 feet from the inside wall. i am not aware of any rule that says you have to see the motor from any particular position.

the spa has not even arrived yet.

-regards

mustang

"Within sight" always starts a pizzing match. Some say it means you have to be able to see the switch handle from the working space of the protected equipment. Others say you just need to be able to see someone who is standing in front of the disconnect or approaching it.
I tend to be in the latter camp but I am particular that you can clearly see if someone is in a position to light you up.

Is that the reason behind "within sight"? As long as the tech is practicing proper lock out/tag out procedures, it's pretty much guaranteed he/she will never get bit. I figured it was so the tech could easily shut off power to the equipment without searching for the correct OCPD in the panel.

Hi,
The disconnect serves several purposes. The location requirement is for MAINTENANCE of the equipment.

I do not think anyone needs to be operating off the IF I CAN SEE SOMEONE OPERATE THE SWITCH method. If you do we may not be hearing from you someday because you sneezed or turned your head or did some work etc.

The disconnect needs to be within sight so that you can SEE BOTH THE EQUIPMENT and the SWITCH.

-regards

MUSTANG



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 09-15-2004).]

In a residential setting, "lockout/tagout" is not very reliable. That is why we want to see a disconnect within sight. Usually the problem is it is too close (no working space), not too far away.

Mustang,

If the spa is in a commercial location the "within sight" rule would fall under 680.40. If this is a dwelling wouldn't a motor disconnect fall under 430-IX? I believe that under the 2002 NEC all motors must have a disconnect and within sight. Now lots of spas/hot tubs have a switch or circuit breaker mounted right inside the tub by the motor and that should count as the disconnect.

Okay guys, "within sight" means to "be visible and not more than 15 m (50 feet) distant from the other" direct quote- not very confusing to me. The Maintenance disconnect for a spa or pool must meet this requirement. 680.12. I find no pervision for an exception such as "lock out- tag out" This maintenance disconnect is not to be confused with the Emergency switch talked about in 680.41 required for other than residential installations.

harold,
thanks for the reply.

you said:

"Now lots of spas/hot tubs have a switch or circuit breaker mounted right inside the tub by the motor and that should count as the disconnect."

This is generally NOT accpetable in my area because SOMETIMES there is NO EASY access if the disco is BEHIND an access panel or skirt..

I have seen these units and I always insist on a seperate disco...might be a plug or a breaker etc..

in an emergency you would not have time enough to remove a cover or panel...you need access to a HANDLE or SWITCH or PLUG..

-regards

mustang

Mustang- it doesn't say that the Maintenance Disconnect is used for emergency type situations. The switch that is located on the spa, under the skirt of the spa satisfies the "Maintenance Disconnect" requirements. There is no requirement for an Emergency switch unless the spa is in other than a residential installation. The Maintenance Disconnect under the skirt of a typical spa certianly is within sight of the motor and is allowed there by 680.22(C) because of the barrier of the spa skirt. A person could locate a disconnect not less than 5 feet from the spa if the wanted to, but it is not a code requirement.

Geo,
thanks for the replies. I see where your coming from but I am not the inspector. They want a SWITCH or DISCO for the HOMEOWNER to be able to shut the unit down if need be.

I always try to exceed the code requirements where I can. This is a place where it would pay off.

The SWITCH can be a single pole mounted LESS than five feet if it is for this use..

thanks for pointing out the difference

-regards

mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 09-19-2004).]

Mustang,

Ask the inspector what the code section you are in violation of? As I said, if the job was a commercial, then you would have to have an Emergency Disconnect, But for a residential spa, and Emergency Disconnect is NOT required. You just need a disconnect for the motor within 50 feet and within sight of the motor.

680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means.

This disconnecting means is required, and also has to follow:
680.22 (C) Switching Devices
Switching devices shall be located at least 5 feet horixontally from the inside walls of a pool...

The switch under the cowling of the Hot Tub is not permitted as the maintenance switch.

Lets not forget 110.22 Identification of Disconnecting Means.

Pierre

Pierre- I respectfully disagree with the statment that the switch under the skirt can not be used for the maintenance switch required by the code. Why can't it? And if it's not acceptable for this use, what is it for? And since it's allowed there because of 680.22(C), why is it there? I hope others will add their comments.

Hello George
Thanks for respectfully disagreeing , that is another good part of this forum.
Because the skirt is screwed into place, the switch is not accessible [as per Art 100 - Accessible (as applied to equipment)].

Pierre

Now I'm left with the question - What kind of maintenance will be done that would require the disconnecting of the electrical to the spa? If the maintenance requires opening or removing the section of the skirt around the spa I stand by my orginial comment.

George,

I'll give you a specific example of why a service tech would need to kill power to a spa, for service reasons, when they were not pulling the main motor access panel.

Our spa has a "lounge seat" with 6 solenoid-operated valves. The valves feed water to jets clustered at different body points (feet, legs, lower back, etc.). The solenoids are controlled by a little computer which allows you to sequence the jets in various combinations.

We've had a problem with the valves leaking. I actually believe the solenoids were over-actuating and causing leaks that way. This past repair trip I forced the replacement of both the valves and solenoids.

The solenoids are connected to a single junction/circuit box. These solenoid/valve combinations and the control box are accessed by pulling the access panel off at the corner of the spa where the back of the lounge seat is. This is NOT the main motor, pump and control access panel. The tech had to replace and rewire the solenoids and sure wanted the power to the spa off.

Other info - this is an indoor spa and the "disconnect" is a maintained contact, mushroom-head push button that operates a contactor. The contactor is located next to the panelboard in the basement and is fed by a GFI-breaker. The PB is on a wall near the spa, just beyond 5' from the inside of the spa.

Rob

hi,
thanks for the replies. there were some very interesting responses.

myself i do not like the idea of being in a tub of water knowing there is 240 vac on a 50 a breaker just below my rearend.even if it is a protected circuit...somehow that is always on my mind while in a hot tub..i guess i feel better knowing there is a switch within sight..

i always put a switch, cord connection, or disconnect as close as possible to the unit for purely safety reasons. i am not too worried about the maintenance aspect but rather the emergency or the unplanned incident where a persons life is on the line..you never know what can happen..

i do not really understand why it would be a requiremnt in a commercial setting and not a residential setting..i say that is irrelevant

thanks again for the responses

mustang



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 09-28-2004).]

If you are calling the mushroom head push button a disconnect and it might even be labeled on/off it does not qualify as a disconnect but instead the contactor is the disconnecting means. Look at 430.103. If the contactor is near the panel with the GFCI breaker in it. The breaker could qualify as the disconnect for the controller and hence the disconnect for the SPA. The disconnect under the skirt could qualify as the disconnect within site of the motor. Kinda sounds like you have a unique installation and subject to approval by the inspector who will be approving the job. The Mushroom head stop button is definitely not a disconnect if it's operating a contactor.

Gentleman,

(I love how polite everyone is on this board.) Again wether I like having a disconnect within sight of a spa or not doesn't matter. I believe that if you read the code book and right now I am talking just about spas, in a single family dwelling. an emergency disconnect is not required as per section 680.41. I also believe that we should have that disconnect there, but as per the code, it is not required. Now that is just an emergency disconnect.
As for a service equipment disconnect switch. As per section 680.12, it requires a disconnect means for any pool equipment and it has to within eyesight of the equipment(There is no distance given), not the pool or spa and more than 5 feet away from the pool. Sometimes pool equipment is located in a different location than the pool itself. I have seen equipment located on different levels, around the corner, in a different room than the pool or spa. (Again in a single family dwelling) Again this is my opinion and if the AHJ disagrees with you, then I would ask then which code section are they quoting from.

Thanks harold, You can work in the town I inspect in any time. You'd make my job easy :-))

From the service tech's perspective, the PB is the disconnect. I submit that, from a code perspective, the PB+contactor (not just the PB, not just the contactor) is the disconnect and is allowed. Per 100.A, Disconnecting Means "A device, or group of devices, or other means by which the conductors of a circuit can be disconnected from their source of supply". Because the PB is the only method of operating the contactor, and that PB is within sight of the spa, the combination of PB+contactor met the requirements. This was discussed with and approved by the AHJ before installation.

The main purpose of the PB+contactor was to provide an unobtrusive service disconnect in a custom room built for the spa. It also happens to provide an emergency shutoff for the spa, even though this was not required for a residential installation.

[This message has been edited by rlrct (edited 09-29-2004).]

Pierre,
680.12 requires that the disconnect be with in sight of and accessible from the equipment. In my opinion a disconnect behind the same removable panel that encloses the equipment is permitted by the code. The disconnect behind this panel is accessible from the equipment location. The cover has to be off to access either item.
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 09-29-2004).]

rlrct,
I don't agree. The disconnect itself must open the power conductors. The push button only controls the contactor and does not directly open the power conductors and is not a means of disconnect. It is a very poor safety practice to use a control device as a "lockout device". You must lock and tag the switch that actually opens the power circuit conductors before working on the equipment.
Don

Definition of In Sight From (Within Sight From, Within Sight) as taken from Article 100. "Where this Code specifies that one equipment shall be 'in sight from,' 'within sight from,' or 'within sight,' and so forth, of another equipment, the specified equipment is to be visible and not more than 15m (50 ft) distant from the other.

Equipment A (disconnect) needs to be within 50 feet and visible of Equipment B (spa or spa motor if seperated).

[This message has been edited by royta (edited 09-29-2004).]

hi,
thanks for the replies. isnt the pushbutton an INTEGRAL part of the contactor just as the HANDLE of the disconnect switch is an INTEGRAL part of the disconnect? the blades of a disconnect are what opens the circuit. just like the set of contacts in the pb station can fail, so too can the handle of the disconnect. i have never seen a disconnect that the handle quit working on but there are a lot of things i have not seen that have happened.

a contactor needs an input or it will stay closed, a disconnect needs an input or it will remain closed.

the problem with the pb station is that it does not remove the power supply. the contactor could be stuck closed..

i beleive there is a definition that would clear this up..nice debate though

even though a disco may not be required at a residential site, the ahj likes to see it so there is another reason to install one..

thanks

mustang

George,

First of all thank you for your response. Second of all, I have been doing electrical work since 1975. I was in my own business for at least 15 years, and now I am the AHJ for 4 towns for at least 5 years. As an AHJ, I don't red tag someone because they didn't wire up something like I would do it. I am a firm believer in the NEC. As someone taught me, If you can't read the violation, you can't write the violation. The code is the code and that is it. I may not like an installation, and I might have done it differently. However, if it meets the code, I will pass the job.